Style purists(?).
Moderator: Moderators
Style purists(?).
I consume about 30+ hours a week of bowling related content. Watching vids, practicing, or just talking, it's usually bowling. I am really surprised about the conflict on bowling styles, mainly one hand traditional vs two handed(no thumb).
As a one handed no thumber, I feel that any legally accepted style can and should be used. I don't thumb(no pun intended) my nose at any particular style. Look at the ufo/helicopter style that's big in Asia. It works and it's legal.
So why the controversy? Why are guys like Sean Rash(not a Rash fan) saying, "Put your thumb in it."? Is there an unfair advantage no thumbers have? I say no and Norm Duke is my proof. He beat Belmo(i'm a big Belmo fan) and Duke doesn't have a 650 rev rate. Or is it that bowling traditionalists feel that no thumb disgraces the game?
Two weeks ago, there was this older gentleman in my league who is a full roller and shot the pants of off all of us!
The effects of high rev rate is well documented vs lane conditions. Lanes "burn-up" quicker with high rev players and thus, the new USBC rules being applied(whether or not they will be effective is another story). If this is the reason, then traditionalists may have a point. However, and I could be wrong, but didn't bowling balls in the beginning have no finger holes?
As a one handed no thumber, I feel that any legally accepted style can and should be used. I don't thumb(no pun intended) my nose at any particular style. Look at the ufo/helicopter style that's big in Asia. It works and it's legal.
So why the controversy? Why are guys like Sean Rash(not a Rash fan) saying, "Put your thumb in it."? Is there an unfair advantage no thumbers have? I say no and Norm Duke is my proof. He beat Belmo(i'm a big Belmo fan) and Duke doesn't have a 650 rev rate. Or is it that bowling traditionalists feel that no thumb disgraces the game?
Two weeks ago, there was this older gentleman in my league who is a full roller and shot the pants of off all of us!
The effects of high rev rate is well documented vs lane conditions. Lanes "burn-up" quicker with high rev players and thus, the new USBC rules being applied(whether or not they will be effective is another story). If this is the reason, then traditionalists may have a point. However, and I could be wrong, but didn't bowling balls in the beginning have no finger holes?
-
- Member
- Posts: 71
- Joined: March 1st, 2019, 6:05 pm
- Positive Axis Point: 6 x 1
- Speed: 17 foul line
- Rev Rate: 440
- Axis Tilt: 17
- Axis Rotation: 70
Re: Style purists(?).
Do they have an advantage? Of course, high rev and high speed typically equates to better scores. That's not always the case, of course, because the player still needs to execute the shot and there is always that element of luck. Is it an unfair advantage? No.
All that said, I'm not a fan of the style. I don't enjoy watching it and if it's only 2 handers in the event/round I tend to not watch. I simply enjoy watching something I can relate or aspire to. I'm not saying people can't bowl how they want, or that people like Belmo aren't amazingly good/talented. They obviously are.
All that said, I'm not a fan of the style. I don't enjoy watching it and if it's only 2 handers in the event/round I tend to not watch. I simply enjoy watching something I can relate or aspire to. I'm not saying people can't bowl how they want, or that people like Belmo aren't amazingly good/talented. They obviously are.
Right handed
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees
Rev Rate 420s
Ball speed at release 17
Axis point 6 3/16" and 1" up
Tilt 17 degrees
Rotation 70 degrees
- snick
- BCU Graduate Layouts
- Posts: 759
- Joined: August 31st, 2014, 8:00 pm
- THS Average: 196
- Sport Average: 180
- Positive Axis Point: 5.5625" x .625 up
- Speed: 17 off hand
- Rev Rate: 360
- Axis Tilt: 17
- Axis Rotation: 55
- Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Physix
- Medium Oil Ball: Storm Streetfight
- Light Oil Ball: Rotogrip Hustle Pearl
- Preferred Company: Rotogrip
- Location: Tucson, AZ
Re: Style purists(?).
two-handed delivery does not give the player any special advantage. Many traditional bowlers have rev-rates and tilt similar to two-handers.
Benchmark Bowling Pro Shop
Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
Byron
RH
PAP: 5.5625 x .625 up
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 17º
- 2y2
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 356
- Joined: July 25th, 2010, 11:09 pm
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/8 and 3/8 over
- Speed: 17 mph
- Rev Rate: 350
- Axis Tilt: 10º
- Axis Rotation: 45º
- Heavy Oil Ball: Storm CodeX
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Python
- Light Oil Ball: Pitch Blue
- Preferred Company: None
- Location: Merida City, Yucatan, Mexico
- Contact:
Re: Style purists(?).
It is very common that when something new hits the competition field in any sports there will be a lot of resistance to the change one just have to remember high jump, when Richard Douglas Fosbury made the first back jump, everybody criticized him and complained, now, there's not a single high jump athlete that does it the traditional way. I'm not trying to say two hands technique is better, but for kids it is easier to learn and enjoy (Not more easier to master) and If we want bowling to be an olympic event and if we want bowling not to die as other bowling forms such as candlepin bowling are dying, we must make it a lot more appealing to young people for the sake of our sport.
Here's a video I found where Ronnie Russel discusses the topic [youtube][/youtube]
Here's a video I found where Ronnie Russel discusses the topic [youtube][/youtube]
If you think I helped, please click on the "+" button, Thanks.
Re: Style purists(?).
2y2 , with you 100%
All excellent points.
Probably several different reasons why some people don't like the style. Our sport needs growth, the 2 handed style is legal and takes skill to master. I believe it will attract more bowler's and also help retain bowler's who otherwise might quit the sport.
While many can perform the style, mastering it is far from easy.
Belmo shoots 10 pins better than many 1 handers.
Wrist devices are legal and they allow people to bowl who otherwise might not be able to.
In baseball, some pitchers have had good careers as Sub-marine pitchers (underhand)
certainly a deviation from the norm.
Again, people have a right to their beliefs, but in all cases, we should be respectful of others.
All excellent points.
Probably several different reasons why some people don't like the style. Our sport needs growth, the 2 handed style is legal and takes skill to master. I believe it will attract more bowler's and also help retain bowler's who otherwise might quit the sport.
While many can perform the style, mastering it is far from easy.
Belmo shoots 10 pins better than many 1 handers.
Wrist devices are legal and they allow people to bowl who otherwise might not be able to.
In baseball, some pitchers have had good careers as Sub-marine pitchers (underhand)
certainly a deviation from the norm.
Again, people have a right to their beliefs, but in all cases, we should be respectful of others.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 1386
- Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: San Juan, PR
Re: Style purists(?).
This one goes out to the youth who want to kick butt bowling:
-Work out in the gym, cross train in other sports like tenis, baseball and golf, aim for strong legs, core, explosive movements.
-Get a good modern coach, not a nostalgic traditionalist who doesn’t see bowling is an athletic sport.
-Do what feels comfortable, one handed, two handed, no thumb, thumb in... but don’t forget a good spare game and understanding of your environment is key.
-Don’t pay any attention to has beens with a beer gut and a grumpy attitude...
This is a sport, train like it is a sport, the time is now, not yesterday.
-Work out in the gym, cross train in other sports like tenis, baseball and golf, aim for strong legs, core, explosive movements.
-Get a good modern coach, not a nostalgic traditionalist who doesn’t see bowling is an athletic sport.
-Do what feels comfortable, one handed, two handed, no thumb, thumb in... but don’t forget a good spare game and understanding of your environment is key.
-Don’t pay any attention to has beens with a beer gut and a grumpy attitude...
This is a sport, train like it is a sport, the time is now, not yesterday.
Last edited by TonyPR on March 29th, 2019, 2:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Silver Level Coach
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 1386
- Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: San Juan, PR
Re: Style purists(?).
BTW I am attending the Two Handed camp at Kegel May 17-19, anyone who wants to question what I say please meet us at those dates, Lake Wales Fla... we will be discussing the future of our sport and training the few of us coaches who are aware of what’s going on.
Silver Level Coach
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
Re: Style purists(?).
In Ron Hoppe's book, he related a story about disdain of and resistance to change.TonyPR wrote:This one goes out to the youth who want to kick butt bowling:
-Work out in the gym, cross train in other sports like tenis, baseball and golf, aim for strong legs, core, explosive movements.
-Get a good modern coach, not a nostalgic traditionalist who doesn’t see bowling is an athletic sport.
-Do what feels comfortable, one handed, two handed, no thumb, thumb in... but don’t forget a good spare game and understanding of your environment is key.
-Don’t pay any attention to has beens with a beer gut and a grumpy attitude...
Mike drop, and if USBC doesn’t like what I say then revoke my certification... this is a sport, train like it is a sport, the time is now, not yesterday.
When Ameleto Monacelli debuted on the PBA tour, many young people wanted to be taught what Ameleto did. Many coaches and parents refused to teach it. Ameleto's style was obviously athletic and appealing. To this day he remains one of my personal favorites.
He is still bowling and still looks GREAT. Ameleto espoused fitness and it shows.
Bob Summerville wrote "How do we know that the way we teach bowling is the best way?".
An open mind keeps open the door to progress.
Regardless of style, bowling is a sport and an athletic endeavor, be it finesse or power.
Stylistic differences are a strength of this sport.
Hitting the gym or perusing a home fitness regimen can add enjoyment and help sustain and improve quality of life. The earlier one starts the better, but it's really never too late.
Help grow the sport by encouraging people to perform it in the manner of their choice.
Admire talent and skill. Remember the old adage that bowling is a game of how many, not how!
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
Re: Style purists(?).
Another TRUTH statement by kajmk.kajmk wrote:An open mind keeps open the door to progress.
Be open minded and observant- never know what one will discover.
Is John's signature statement not THE TRUTH?
-Gary Parsons
If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.
If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.
Re: Style purists(?).
Imagine football without the forward pass ...
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
-
- Member
- Posts: 181
- Joined: March 7th, 2015, 12:44 am
- Positive Axis Point: 4 11/16 over 1 up
- Speed: 13 off hand
- Rev Rate: 200
- Axis Tilt: 24
- Axis Rotation: 75
- Heavy Oil Ball: Track Logix
- Medium Oil Ball: Track Paradox
- Light Oil Ball: Hammer Widow Black Urethane
- Preferred Company: Ebonite Brands
Re: Style purists(?).
I in no way am trying to offend anyone with my opinions. I totally agree that sports evolve and as far as bowling is concerned, One handed thumb or no thumb two fingers thumb or no thumb and two hands are all okay with me and any other way you can come up with to release the ball. My biggest complaint with bowling is the lack of uniform standards for bowling balls which should include the cover and the core. Also standards for pins, gutters and kickbacks. Too many messengers in the PBA in my mind adds more luck and takes away from the skill. Bowling in my opinion was intended to be a game of skill where the bowler was at least 90 percent of the equation in scoring well but in today's environment at the non professional level the balls and house shots make up a good 30 percent. I am not advocating going backwards but rather standardizing things that make sense to improve the game so maybe it can make the olympics one day.
Joel Resnick
Hand: Left
PAP: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75
No matter what you are trying to do remember simplicity gives better results than over complicating things.
Hand: Left
PAP: 4 11/16 over 1 up
Speed: 13 off hand
Rev Rate: 200
Axis Tilt: 24
Axis Rotation: 75
No matter what you are trying to do remember simplicity gives better results than over complicating things.
-
- Trusted Source
- Posts: 1386
- Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
- Preferred Company: Radical
- Location: San Juan, PR
Re: Style purists(?).
The pros make it look easy because of their skill, lower the ratio of house patterns to 3:1 and you’ll see a lot of 220-200 avg bowlers quitting because of all of the sudden it got too hard. The pros don’t bowl on 10:1 house patterns, national teams don’t bowl on that either, to average above 180 in 3:1 or less patterns one needs to practice more than once a week. To be good at long format tournaments one must have endurance to play 6-8 games a day for 4+ days. Bowling 3 games a week is fun, it’s a game, practicing 6 games a day Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday is a sport.
Silver Level Coach
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
- 2y2
- Certified Coach
- Posts: 356
- Joined: July 25th, 2010, 11:09 pm
- Positive Axis Point: 5 1/8 and 3/8 over
- Speed: 17 mph
- Rev Rate: 350
- Axis Tilt: 10º
- Axis Rotation: 45º
- Heavy Oil Ball: Storm CodeX
- Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Python
- Light Oil Ball: Pitch Blue
- Preferred Company: None
- Location: Merida City, Yucatan, Mexico
- Contact:
Re: Style purists(?).
Talking about skills, anyone that thinks two handed bowlers have less skills should read this article: https://www.11thframe.com/news/article/ ... of-bowlingjdrsuper wrote:I in no way am trying to offend anyone with my opinions. I totally agree that sports evolve and as far as bowling is concerned, One handed thumb or no thumb two fingers thumb or no thumb and two hands are all okay with me and any other way you can come up with to release the ball. My biggest complaint with bowling is the lack of uniform standards for bowling balls which should include the cover and the core. Also standards for pins, gutters and kickbacks. Too many messengers in the PBA in my mind adds more luck and takes away from the skill. Bowling in my opinion was intended to be a game of skill where the bowler was at least 90 percent of the equation in scoring well but in today's environment at the non professional level the balls and house shots make up a good 30 percent. I am not advocating going backwards but rather standardizing things that make sense to improve the game so maybe it can make the olympics one day.
If you think I helped, please click on the "+" button, Thanks.
Re: Style purists(?).
The host asks for opinions from some locals.
In closing, he gives his opinion which I strongly share.
[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]
In closing, he gives his opinion which I strongly share.
[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]
[youtube][/youtube]
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
Re: Style purists(?).
BJI April edition "Conversations" section.
Dave Leverage of Peoria Az , wrote a letter entitled "Belmo Critics"
Nice letter Dave, well stated (disclaimer, I strongly agree)
Love your closing sentence Dave.
By the way, just in case you frequent this forum, you have a great name for a bowler.
Dave Leverage of Peoria Az , wrote a letter entitled "Belmo Critics"
Nice letter Dave, well stated (disclaimer, I strongly agree)
Love your closing sentence Dave.
By the way, just in case you frequent this forum, you have a great name for a bowler.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
Re: Style purists(?).
Honestly, I have no issues with how someone bowls. It's not how, it's how many. Due to issues in my shoulder and elbow, I am no longer a high speed, high rev bowler. Was I a better bowler when I cranked the ball? Not really. The benefit of throwing the ball at 18-19 mph with around 450-500 rpms was that I had a much wider pocket and got away with a lot more.
After a year layoff from bowling to allow my body to heal, I am now a medium speed, medium rev rate bowler. Speed is right around 15-16 mph, and rev rate is around 300-350 rpms. While my speed and rev rate has gone down, my accuracy has improved, and I leave less splits and more easier spares to shoot at.
The point I am making is that anyone on any pattern and any style can score. Play what the lanes give you, not what you want to play. This weekend I bowled a tournament where straighter was greater. Playing inside was an option but you needed to have light reacting equipment and pinpoint accuracy. Outside was the best look.
After a year layoff from bowling to allow my body to heal, I am now a medium speed, medium rev rate bowler. Speed is right around 15-16 mph, and rev rate is around 300-350 rpms. While my speed and rev rate has gone down, my accuracy has improved, and I leave less splits and more easier spares to shoot at.
The point I am making is that anyone on any pattern and any style can score. Play what the lanes give you, not what you want to play. This weekend I bowled a tournament where straighter was greater. Playing inside was an option but you needed to have light reacting equipment and pinpoint accuracy. Outside was the best look.