New Ball Specs, Collusion?

You can post any bowling related topics here.

Moderator: Moderators

Do you THINK ball companies and USBC colluded ?

You may select 1 option

 
 
View results

User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3502
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by kajmk » February 23rd, 2019, 11:07 pm

A few folks have opined about possible collusion between USBC and Ball Manufacturers regarding new ball "specs".

Not that it will change anything, but just for fun, I thought I'd start a poll.
Polls have a tendency to be ignored here, but what the heck.

Folks can vote anonymously or weigh in with comments.

Forum Guests May Vote
Membership NOT Required


You will be allowed to change your vote.

Consumers vote at the cash register, and that is the tale of the tape, but scores are intoxicating.
Last edited by kajmk on March 4th, 2019, 6:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3625
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by EricHartwell » February 24th, 2019, 5:25 am

Yes, I am one of the people that think there is collusion between the manufacturers and the USBC.

Track released the Alias and new ball manufacturing specifications to allow any drilling method/ Cg location almost a year before the USBC announced the new rule changes.
No other manufacturers released any press releases speaking out against the changes.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3625
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by EricHartwell » February 24th, 2019, 5:44 pm

I see there are 2 people at this time that don't think there is collusion, Wish they would have commented as to why they think not. I could use something to dial back my pessimism.

I see this type of thing all the time in my profession. I am an electrician governed by the Nation Fire Protection Agency (NFPA). Every 3 years the electrical code is updated. Many of the code references (laws) are pushed through by the parts manufacturers. They want to sell their new products so they do what that can to make us in the field use those particular products.
It is no different than politicians passing laws for special interest groups and corporate entities.
Unfortunately it is the American way.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

44boyd
Member
Member
Posts: 541
Joined: January 25th, 2017, 3:10 am
Preferred Company: Radical, Brunswick
Location: Valrico Florida

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by 44boyd » February 24th, 2019, 6:08 pm

On Inside Bowling 2019 Fusion Realtors going on this weekend, Tom Hess and them think it’ll help PSO’s stay in compliance and save time ensuring they have it in spec. So basically it’ll help crappy PSOs make equipment legal instead of going to a tournament and having balance holes drilled because they messed up laying it out.
Stacy

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3625
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by EricHartwell » February 24th, 2019, 6:35 pm

44boyd wrote:On Inside Bowling 2019 Fusion Realtors going on this weekend, Tom Hess and them think it’ll help PSO’s stay in compliance and save time ensuring they have it in spec. So basically it’ll help crappy PSOs make equipment legal instead of going to a tournament and having balance holes drilled because they messed up laying it out.
I don't disagree it is going to make it easier for lame PSO's to keep the statics legal. My driller has relocated his scale off the front counter because he doesn't need to weigh a ball anymore to verify legal static weight. The new rules make his job easier and quicker. In essence he is getting paid more by the hour to get a ball out the door. Less work, less time for the same price.

It will also benefit the manufacturers because they will not have to do what Track did making their top weigh specs/locations more stringent. They can actually relax their standard creating less waste, out of spec balls, easier set up with the molds making for more sell-able balls comming off the line.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

User avatar
kajmk
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3502
Joined: October 25th, 2010, 11:41 pm
Location: Sun City Arizona

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by kajmk » February 24th, 2019, 6:37 pm

Good issue and worthy of discussion.

More cats guarding the birdies?

I'm afraid the good PSOs and men of conscience within the business might be in a conundrum insofar as weighing in on the prospect of collusion.



[youtube][/youtube]
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

John

ballspoint
Member
Member
Posts: 290
Joined: August 3rd, 2011, 4:44 am
Speed: 20 mph off the hand
Rev Rate: 250
Axis Tilt: 11
Axis Rotation: 70

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by ballspoint » February 24th, 2019, 7:00 pm

EricHartwell wrote:I see there are 2 people at this time that don't think there is collusion, Wish they would have commented as to why they think not. I could use something to dial back my pessimism.

I see this type of thing all the time in my profession. I am an electrician governed by the Nation Fire Protection Agency (NFPA). Every 3 years the electrical code is updated. Many of the code references (laws) are pushed through by the parts manufacturers. They want to sell their new products so they do what that can to make us in the field use those particular products.
It is no different than politicians passing laws for special interest groups and corporate entities.
Unfortunately it is the American way.
I voted no, because i dont THINK there is collusion. Only those in the industry know, surely there would be someone with a conscious to speak up / leak the truth.
USBC have their reasons and are clever enough for them, or just not very clever.
R/H, 20 mph off hand. 250 Revs.
11* Tilt. 70* Rotation. 5 5/8 x 1"up

User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4512
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 230
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 15/16 Over 3/8 Up
Speed: 15.25 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - The Closer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswck - Method Solid
Light Oil Ball: DV8 - Poison Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by MegaMav » February 24th, 2019, 7:06 pm

I think there was cooperation, not collusion based on what I've been told.
Good poll.
“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3625
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by EricHartwell » February 24th, 2019, 8:14 pm

kajmk wrote:I'm afraid the good PSOs and men of conscience within the business might be in a conundrum insofar as weighing in on the prospect of collusion.
I believe this is so true.
MegaMav wrote:I think there was cooperation, not collusion based on what I've been told.
Good poll.

Collusion is a strong word...
col·lu·sion Dictionary result for collusion
noun
secret or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, especially in order to cheat or deceive others.

Obviously I feel strongly about the topic. The new rules are costing me a bunch of time and money to rebuild my arsenal. I feel cheated. It was not illegal cooperation but it was done in secrecy.

I also understand that companies need to stay profitable and ways of doing this is to eliminate waste and streamline manufacturing processes. But to mandate expenditures on my part leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

User avatar
DarkHorse
Member
Member
Posts: 221
Joined: June 15th, 2013, 12:06 am
Location: USA

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by DarkHorse » February 24th, 2019, 8:43 pm

I voted NO, simply based on the definition of collusion.

My understanding is there is a particular individual in USBC that tends to get tunnel vision when dealing with perceived problems. When he is made aware of an issue, he will focus on only 1 possible solution, regardless of where science and reality point. Thus, he felt balance holes needed to be eliminated for the sake of the sport. And I believe that he believes that is true. I don't agree, but USBC didn't ask me.

I agree the 3 ounce expansion was a concession to manufactures from USBC, since they couldn't grasp the repercussions of such a drastic change. I think when the manufacturers were told about the proposed changes, they pushed for the 3 ounces since they realized how it could help them. But I don't see that as improper. We'd be much worse off if we still had to fall under 1 oz limits.

I also think "in secrecy" is a bit harsh. We may not have been involved in the discussions on this, but that's not a first (for me, anyway). Granted, this won't affect my arsenal much, so I don't feel as strongly as others might. Perception vs. Reality, it seems. Maybe one day we'll know the truth.
Right Handed
Speed: 18 mph (foul line)
Rev Rate: ~350 rpm
Tilt: 10*
Rotation: 55*
PAP: 5 1/8" right, 1/2" up

User avatar
snick
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 756
Joined: August 31st, 2014, 8:00 pm
THS Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 5.625" x 0
Speed: 17 off hand
Rev Rate: 360
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Fix
Medium Oil Ball: Storm JoyRide
Light Oil Ball: Storm Tropical Breeze
Preferred Company: Storm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by snick » February 25th, 2019, 2:31 am

I believe that the rule changes will ultimately benefit the business of bowling from manufacturer to the proshop. It is the consumers that will end up paying for it, in terms of more expensive ball designs to replace symms, and balance hole plugging fees, which will add up quickly for bowlers with large arsenals.

Whether or not the rule changes were conceived to benefit manufacturers, the net result conforms well to the theory of collusion. And I believe "collusion" may be the right term to use in this case, if the actual and publicly stated intents of the rule changes differ significantly.

And a shout out to Mo, I threw the new Radical Conspiracy Pearl (an interesting label in the context of this discussion) at an all manufacturers demo this weekend and it was by far my favorite ball. I literally could not find a deep enough inside line to leave corner pins with it.
Benchmark Bowling Pro Shop
Byron

RH
PAP: 5.625" x 0
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 7º

vicsmyth
Member
Member
Posts: 72
Joined: March 22nd, 2014, 10:23 am

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by vicsmyth » February 25th, 2019, 3:01 pm

I voted "do not care", since I do not bowl on any USBC leagues or tournaments other than an occasional Pro Am for fun. I also drill and plug my own bowling balls (and occasionally add balance holes, motion holes and rebar to tinker with static weights).

I keep reading on the Internet that "static weights don't matter". If that is true why bother regulating them?

User avatar
MegaMav
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4512
Joined: April 27th, 2007, 5:00 am
THS Average: 230
Sport Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 4 15/16 Over 3/8 Up
Speed: 15.25 MPH - Camera
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 14
Axis Rotation: 40
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical - The Closer
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswck - Method Solid
Light Oil Ball: DV8 - Poison Pearl
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Malta, NY

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by MegaMav » February 25th, 2019, 4:26 pm

vicsmyth wrote:I voted "do not care", since I do not bowl on any USBC leagues or tournaments other than an occasional Pro Am for fun. I also drill and plug my own bowling balls (and occasionally add balance holes, motion holes and rebar to tinker with static weights).

I keep reading on the Internet that "static weights don't matter". If that is true why bother regulating them?
Once you get around 4 ounces it can have an effect on legal weight balls.

[youtube][/youtube]

6lbs plastic ball, pancake weight block
Statics: 5.875 oz bottom, 3.75 oz side, 3.75 oz finger
“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh

boomer
Member
Member
Posts: 188
Joined: October 5th, 2012, 3:47 pm
THS Average: 200
Positive Axis Point: 6 3/16 x 1/2 up
Speed: 13.8 at pindeck
Rev Rate: 230
Preferred Company: Storm (it smells pretty)

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by boomer » February 25th, 2019, 6:15 pm

MegaMav wrote:
Once you get around 4 ounces it can have an effect on legal weight balls.

[youtube][/youtube]

6lbs plastic ball, pancake weight block
Statics: 5.875 oz bottom, 3.75 oz side, 3.75 oz finger
LOL - that was what my wife's ball looked like until I got it drilled properly. She rolls backup but it was drilled "properly" (PSO was an idiot) - and no, not to that extent, but you could see it fighting itself.


I chose, "don't care" because collusion is such a trigger word right now. Do I THINK they secretly made arrangements? No. Do I think they made SECRET arrangements? No, probably not. Does it make a difference? No.

The ABC/USBC/WIBC/blah flavor of the decade does things like this regularly. We end up paying for it by buying new equipment, much of which we'd buy anyway, eventually.

But our complaining about 3oz not making a difference - when plugging our balance holes, NOW does that 3oz make a difference?

poem58
Member
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: February 27th, 2019, 7:40 pm

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by poem58 » February 28th, 2019, 4:23 pm

I voted no. From what I have read, some of the rules are for oil absorption by the ball cover and trying to make the oil pattern last as long is it can. If I understand this right, this is a good thing. I am a two handed bowler and also agree with the flipping over of the ball 180 degrees. Also agree with the balance hole thing since it clears up a lot of issues. It's now a thumb hole or it isn't. I'm lucky anyway since I just dropped from 15# to 14# and so I need new stuff.

User avatar
snick
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 756
Joined: August 31st, 2014, 8:00 pm
THS Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: 5.625" x 0
Speed: 17 off hand
Rev Rate: 360
Axis Tilt: 7
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Fix
Medium Oil Ball: Storm JoyRide
Light Oil Ball: Storm Tropical Breeze
Preferred Company: Storm
Location: Tucson, AZ

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by snick » February 28th, 2019, 9:21 pm

IMO, all bowlers should be allowed a fitted thumbhole, regardless of their play style. This is really the only aspect of the equipment rules with which I strongly disagree.
Benchmark Bowling Pro Shop
Byron

RH
PAP: 5.625" x 0
REVRATE: 360
SPEED: 17mph at release
AR: 55º
AT: 7º

TonyPR
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1324
Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: San Juan, PR

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by TonyPR » March 1st, 2019, 2:12 am

poem58 wrote:I voted no. From what I have read, some of the rules are for oil absorption by the ball cover and trying to make the oil pattern last as long is it can. If I understand this right, this is a good thing. I am a two handed bowler and also agree with the flipping over of the ball 180 degrees. Also agree with the balance hole thing since it clears up a lot of issues. It's now a thumb hole or it isn't. I'm lucky anyway since I just dropped from 15# to 14# and so I need new stuff.
We two handers no thumb bowlers were able to control PSA placement (drilling angle) on symmetrical balls by drilling a balance hole, after August 2020 if for example we want a 55* drilling angle, we need to get an asymmetrical cored ball.

User avatar
EricHartwell
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3625
Joined: April 5th, 2011, 12:24 am
Positive Axis Point: 4-3/4" and 1/2"up
Speed: 16 off hand
Rev Rate: 330
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Radical Tremendous
Medium Oil Ball: Motiv Villain, Hammer Nail, Brunswick True Motion
Light Oil Ball: Blue Hammer, Columbia Nitrous
Location: Michigan

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by EricHartwell » March 1st, 2019, 2:59 am

TonyPR wrote:
We two handers no thumb bowlers were able to control PSA placement (drilling angle) on symmetrical balls by drilling a balance hole, after August 2020 if for example we want a 55* drilling angle, we need to get an asymmetrical cored ball.
Same with us thumb in bowlers unless the PAP measurement is only 3 1/2 over from grip center.

If it is even possible with a no thumber a PAP measurement of 3 1/8" over 1" up from center of bridge 4" pin to PAP 30* VAL and deep fingers I would predict a Drilling angle of 55*.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Eric Hartwell

Right Handed
PAP 4.75" up 1/2"
45* rotation
12* tilt
330 rev rate
16 mph off hand

User avatar
purduepaul
Member
Member
Posts: 219
Joined: June 26th, 2009, 3:13 am
THS Average: 215
Positive Axis Point: 4 5/8 over by 5/8" up
Speed: 19
Rev Rate: 300
Axis Tilt: 13
Axis Rotation: 65
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by purduepaul » March 1st, 2019, 2:11 pm

EricHartwell wrote: Same with us thumb in bowlers unless the PAP measurement is only 3 1/2 over from grip center.

If it is even possible with a no thumber a PAP measurement of 3 1/8" over 1" up from center of bridge 4" pin to PAP 30* VAL and deep fingers I would predict a Drilling angle of 55*.
Drilling angle on symmetrical cored bowling balls is the least important factor in ball motion even with two handed layouts. The new regulations make the good layout window for your personal bowling style smaller than when weight holes were available.

There was no collusion, just cooperation.
Paul Ridenour
former Sr Research Engineer at USBC
Radical Bowling Technologies Staffer

guruU2
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1046
Joined: March 31st, 2010, 7:27 pm
Location: Camp Springs MD

Re: New Ball Specs, Collusion?

Post by guruU2 » March 1st, 2019, 5:49 pm

purduepaul wrote:There was no collusion, just cooperation.
I agree!
-Gary Parsons
If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.

Post Reply