Young people wearing Wrist Supports

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StevenC
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Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by StevenC » January 14th, 2019, 8:47 am

Hey all,

I'm a 22-year old boy who has been bowling for a little more than half a year. Recently I received a Robby's Rev 2 wrist support from an older friend. I have pretty weak wrists and this wrist device gives me the feeling I have more control.

What I would like to ask is what do you think about someone of my age wearing a wrist device. Without it I have trouble getting a consistent release and sometimes a 13p ball is getting heavy after a game or 3. With the support on I don't have any problems getting rev's and speed more constant and for multiple games.

Could it have something to do with my ball fit (span,pitch,...). Or is it really all strength and build?

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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by 44boyd » January 14th, 2019, 2:47 pm

Welcome, bowling can be easier to stay in a good release position with strength but it’s not essential. Plenty of ladies and Seniors and slighter built dudes can produce revs with better technique. I’d advise you to find a coach and take some lessons. They’ll teach you that technique so you won’t have to rely on the device, and if not the rest of your game will benefit from it regardless.
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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by VLe » January 14th, 2019, 3:32 pm

StevenC wrote:Could it have something to do with my ball fit (span,pitch,...). Or is it really all strength and build?
In case we are talking about a normal, healthy person it is not about strength at all. If you are using so much muscle force that you get tired in few games, there must be some issue in either technique or grip. Propably in both. You should not have to use much force to hold the ball.

In my opinion when you are quite new to bowling, you shouldn't start to rely on wrist support unless there is really some issue on physics (injury for example). Get some quality coaching instead and check your grip. Probably try a few different fitting approaches.

I'm not against wrist supports and have used them also earlier myself. There is a time and place when they are useful for some but for a newcomer I would hesitate to suggest using them. In worst case they could slow down the learning process.
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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by Dax » January 16th, 2019, 12:41 am

Go for it StevenC

It establishes consistency - the key to bowling.

You can always go backwards and later work without it as you get better.

If you are getting one - get one of the later Storm models.
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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by krava » January 16th, 2019, 6:18 am

I had one of the best storm ones. I can't go from cocked to uncocked with that thing on.

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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by StevenC » January 16th, 2019, 10:46 am

Thanks for all the reply's so far.

I do have problems getting my hand under and behind the ball. I think this is to me having weak wrists since I always had trouble with my wrists. Like in school if we have gymnastics I was unable to get enough strength in my right wrist to support me.

When I wear the wrist support I can get under the ball and behind. I'm going to make an appointment with a new pro shop to get a good fit and see where it goes from there.
Dax wrote:Go for it StevenC

It establishes consistency - the key to bowling.

You can always go backwards and later work without it as you get better.

If you are getting one - get one of the later Storm models.
Which Storm model would you recommend. I can use a Robby Rev 2 atm but I plan on getting my own one.

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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by TonyPR » January 16th, 2019, 3:34 pm

Besides having a good fit, which should feel like the ball is hanging on to your hand without you having to squeeze, proper technique will help you get your hand under the ball without much wrist strength. The trick is working with gravity not against it (more on that).

Fit, if you put fingers and thumb in the ball and hang it by your side with wrist and grip relaxed, the ball should not fall. A good test is to do this (hang ball by your side with relaxed wrist and not squeezing) and have someone move your wrist forward in one sudden movement. The ball should fall down with this sudden movement forward of the wrist, make sure your foot isn’t over the ball. If you the ball doesn’t hang on to you by your side with relaxed wrist and no squeezing the fit is no good. If it doesn’t fall with the sudden forward wrist movement the fit is no good. If it hurts your hand or creates blisters the fit is no good. Be prepared to plug and redrill a few times until you get the best fit, it’s very important and every hand is different. Unfortunately it’s a bit of trial and error but when you get the right fit you have 50% of the battle won.

About using gravity, a proper modern armswing, shoulders not squared throughout the whole swing, will have a pause at the top of the backswing when the ball stopped going up but still hasn’t begun to fall down. Learn to feel this pause and do not pull down on the ball, let gravity bring it down for you. Once you are familiar with feeling this split second when the ball stopped going up but hasn’t begun to go down, you will notice the ball feels weightless at this exact moment. That is the moment when you get that hand under the ball and have your hand fall down under the ball with gravity to your release zone next to your ankle. If you try pulling down on it, getting your hand under the ball will be next to impossible.

You most likely don’t need a wrist device

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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by StevenC » January 16th, 2019, 9:06 pm

TonyPR wrote:Besides having a good fit, which should feel like the ball is hanging on to your hand without you having to squeeze, proper technique will help you get your hand under the ball without much wrist strength. The trick is working with gravity not against it (more on that).

Fit, if you put fingers and thumb in the ball and hang it by your side with wrist and grip relaxed, the ball should not fall. A good test is to do this (hang ball by your side with relaxed wrist and not squeezing) and have someone move your wrist forward in one sudden movement. The ball should fall down with this sudden movement forward of the wrist, make sure your foot isn’t over the ball. If you the ball doesn’t hang on to you by your side with relaxed wrist and no squeezing the fit is no good. If it doesn’t fall with the sudden forward wrist movement the fit is no good. If it hurts your hand or creates blisters the fit is no good. Be prepared to plug and redrill a few times until you get the best fit, it’s very important and every hand is different. Unfortunately it’s a bit of trial and error but when you get the right fit you have 50% of the battle won.

About using gravity, a proper modern armswing, shoulders not squared throughout the whole swing, will have a pause at the top of the backswing when the ball stopped going up but still hasn’t begun to fall down. Learn to feel this pause and do not pull down on the ball, let gravity bring it down for you. Once you are familiar with feeling this split second when the ball stopped going up but hasn’t begun to go down, you will notice the ball feels weightless at this exact moment. That is the moment when you get that hand under the ball and have your hand fall down under the ball with gravity to your release zone next to your ankle. If you try pulling down on it, getting your hand under the ball will be next to impossible.

You most likely don’t need a wrist device

I just did this together with some friends at the bowling alley but the ball did fall when we were holding it at our side.
I suppose you don't point with your thumb to the Floor but more in an angle.
Does it really have to feel like it is hanging on you?

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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by TonyPR » January 17th, 2019, 12:52 am

When you relax your wrist your thumb will be pointing down of course do this test without any jerky movements. The ball will hang on to you with no grip pressure. It will feel like you think you will hang up if you swing it, you wont. When you have your ball hanging by your side (wrist relaxed, thumb down), all of the sudden have someone decisively and swiftly put your wrist forward so that your thumb is now pointing forward. If you don’t squeeze, the ball should fall off your hand thumb first then fingers.

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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by StevenC » January 17th, 2019, 11:09 am

TonyPR wrote:When you relax your wrist your thumb will be pointing down of course do this test without any jerky movements. The ball will hang on to you with no grip pressure. It will feel like you think you will hang up if you swing it, you wont. When you have your ball hanging by your side (wrist relaxed, thumb down), all of the sudden have someone decisively and swiftly put your wrist forward so that your thumb is now pointing forward. If you don’t squeeze, the ball should fall off your hand thumb first then fingers.
So if I understand correctly the feeling you should have is that the thumb hole is just a tiny bit too small? If so that would explain why I can't hold my ball correctly. I do have to be under the ball in a good way or else it's gone.

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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by 44boyd » January 17th, 2019, 12:57 pm

It should be snug, not tight. If you can’t get 2-3 pieces of tape and your thumb in there it’s too tight.
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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by TonyPR » January 17th, 2019, 1:46 pm

Could be that, could be spans, could be pitches... we can help you fit yourself, just start a thread and I’ll help you out but first read the Mo fitting instructions in the Wiki, we can do it without the fitting ball or cylinders. Search for threads with the words “wiki fit”.

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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by Dax » January 17th, 2019, 3:45 pm

krava wrote:I had one of the best storm ones. I can't go from cocked to uncocked with that thing on.
No need to.

Unless you want to have a rev rate > 400.

If so, that is easier done by removing the thumb from the ball.
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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by Dax » January 17th, 2019, 3:50 pm

StevenC wrote:
Which Storm model would you recommend. I can use a Robby Rev 2 atm but I plan on getting my own one.
The last one - C4 - is the best - IMHO

Takes a little more getting used to - and is a bit more restrictive.

The gizmo is easier to use and cheaper. You can get a feet for it and then decide how you want to proceed.
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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by kajmk » January 17th, 2019, 4:02 pm

[quote]TonyPR wrote earlier in this thread
About using gravity, a proper modern armswing, shoulders not squared throughout the whole swing, will have a pause at the top of the backswing when the ball stopped going up but still hasn’t begun to fall down. Learn to feel this pause and do not pull down on the ball, let gravity bring it down for you. Once you are familiar with feeling this split second when the ball stopped going up but hasn’t begun to go down, you will notice the ball feels weightless at this exact moment. That is the moment when you get that hand under the ball and have your hand fall down under the ball with gravity to your release zone next to your ankle. If you try pulling down on it, getting your hand under the ball will be next to impossible.[color
/quote]




When Chris Warren was on the regular tour, someone commented and wrote about how such a tiny man could roll so much ball. Chris used to joke about himself, he said he was so skinny, that when he turned sideways and stuck out his tongue, he looked like a zipper; I heard him say that during match play.
This is another area where a quality instructor can be of immense value to a bowler.
Fact is that most self taught bowler's can easily be confused about this game.
It's the instructors task to get the student to really believe and then to commit.
Bill Hall, one of the games best instructors would first try to teach a bowler how to bowl without a wrist support.
This is not meant in any pejorative sense of to demean those who used them.
Many pros have used them.
Just consider that elite but slightly built bowlers are not doing it with brute strength.
If you are young and healthy, chances are better than even that you do not need a wrist device. I believe that whether you do or do not has little to do with strength, more to do with the sense of proprioception and kinesthetic. (I'm not a doctor, but a long time ago a respected coach, writer, PSO taught me this.)
One of the challenges to waiting for the feeling is that there is a tiny time delay between the event and your perception.

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From personal experience, I can tell you that this perception can diminish due to circumstance ...
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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by Dax » January 17th, 2019, 5:41 pm

A 400 or greater Rev Rate - you either have it or you don't.

Most bowlers with coaching can only slightly improve their rev rate ( ask the coaches here - it is the number 1 question they are asked and the one in which they probably have the least influece).

That is because the time between the thumb exits from the ball and the fingers impart energy on the ball is about 16/1000 of a second (ask Mo - he measured it and told me so; 8 frames on 500 frame per sec camera).

To try and decrease that window is an endeavor of low yield. That is why getting under the equator of a ball with some support is more productive than try all the other stuff of cupping/uncupping - my opinion of course - as I have tried it.

Then again, I am only a recreational bowler.

But I did average 240 once on a house shot :) ;)
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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by Dax » January 17th, 2019, 5:47 pm

[Just consider that elite but slightly built bowlers are not doing it with brute strength.
If you are young and healthy, chances are better than even that you do not need a wrist device. I believe that whether you do or do not has little to do with strength, more to do with the sense of proprioception and kinesthetic. (I'm not a doctor, but a long time ago a respected coach, writer, PSO taught me this
My dear friend, kajmk- I AM a doctor and would have to both agree and disagree with you.

It has little to do with size or brute strength - but more to do with "fast hands" as mentioned in the above post.

As you said, just look at Chris Warren and EJ Tackett
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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by Dax » January 17th, 2019, 5:51 pm

Duplicate
"You see only what you look for; you recognize only what you know"

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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by kajmk » January 17th, 2019, 11:41 pm

Dax wrote:
My dear friend, kajmk- I AM a doctor and would have to both agree and disagree with you.

It has little to do with size or brute strength - but more to do with "fast hands" as mentioned in the above post.

As you said, just look at Chris Warren and EJ Tackett
I was expecting to hear from you. I did recall that you are a doctor. :)
Glad to hear I'm not totally wrong.
Sort of like a 100mph fastball, you either have it or you don't
Kudos on your 240 average !

The speed and coming from below the equator are no doubt the major factor in why a no thumb release imparts more rpms.
I've dabbled in no thumb one arm and two arm before unrelated health issues forced a hiatus and a radical paradigm shift on the job took away my will to play anymore, I was in my 50's grey ceiling zone. If I continued to bowl, I would have tried to develop the 2 handed swing. The RPMS are intoxicating, but of course one must consistently execute quality shots.

I had a coach that could not understand why I refused to wear a wrist support.
Quite honestly, my reason was that I felt that I would be cheating myself. Just a matter of personal choice. I felt I would not be earning it. Again, a matter of choice. Years ago, I wore a Mongoose (like Eric Forkel wore it) for a season. I decided to ditch it although it added about 20 pins to my meager average. For what it's worth, I worked with one of Eric's coaches and he spoke of Eric's reason for wearing it.
My coach (a well known instructor) wore a cobra, his opinion was why should he pay a penalty for not having ample fast twitch muscle action. Well with me it's a philosopy thing, in playing a sport, I prefer to work with what I have and minimize if not eschew artificial help. Maybe it's an ego thing with me , pigheadedness or otherwise. I did try a cobra and with practice that might have added 35 pins. Still have it in a drawer.

Again it's a personal thing, no intent to be judgemental.
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Re: Young people wearing Wrist Supports

Post by 44boyd » January 18th, 2019, 3:35 pm

I think the hardest thing for new to intermediate bowlers to understand is to just roll the ball. You don’t have to throw up gang signs to get the ball to hook. Letting the swing happen instead of pulling down (which helps keeping hand under the ball) and lifting (I know some hate the term) through once the thumb clears at the release should feel and look effortless. Look at Eric’s videos, no crazy figure 8 motions like Sterner or finish like your making “the claw”. Effortless and can play a wide part of the lane, let the ball work instead of forcing it.

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