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 Post subject: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:00 am Post Number: #1 Post
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reference: https://ibb.co/kbnemL

Anyone have any stories to tell about "throwing away" a good game at the last moment?

If the picture goes away here is the deal.

game 1
started with the first 6, solid 10 7th, went into the 10th frame possible 279 messed up and chopped a spare.

game 3
started went into the 10th frame with possible 265 messed up and then left 1 2 4 and then chopped the 1 2 and left the 4.

I have been lucky and never messed up a good game like that that I can remember. I didn't just mess 1 game up, I messed up 2 games in the same night out of 3. Last month or so I can't bowl a clean game. When I got done chopping that 2nd spare I was as mad as I was when I was 18. How the hell can you throw not 1 game away but 2?? The printout above is a bit strange, I guess it is illegal to print out the other bowlers scores or maybe it would have taken too many pieces of paper.
We had to go against someone that I swear has like a 500 rev rate. I have video I can post if someone wants it. what good is having that when you have no control over where you put the ball down and it is all over the place. Every spare I have missed lately is either a split or a chop.

Not sure what happend 2nd game, wrist was hurt slightly in one shot, went back down to 15lb ball on last ball of 2nd game to start the 3rd. (too beat up and sore and shoulder still in critical state.)

I can't complain too much as I only threw 1 good ball all night that I liked. Fought all night trying to get fingers to get under the ball but only managed it twice. Once was for a split and got too much hook all of a sudden.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
talking about spares: this month strikeablity is this:

"Never Shoot a Single Pin Again

One of the best ways I know to stop missing spares is to never shoot one alone. Regardless of what’s standing up, shoot at something else. Here’s how it works:

Let’s say you leave a 3 pin. Don’t just shoot that lonely 3 pin. Shoot it as though it were the 3/9 or the 3/10.

Let’s start with the 3/9. You line up and shoot it but hit the right side of the 3. You’ve made the spare and now you get to slap everybody’s hand and take a card to see if you made your full house. In your heart, though, you know it wasn’t good enough. It would have missed the 9 pin.

You’ll know two wonderful things: if you leave the 3/9, a) you are not lined up to make it and b) you could spare the 3 by itself without moving. So, you earn your slash mark AND get the bonus information of free alignment for other spares.

I’d love to say that, since you hit the right side of the 3, you have discovered where to stand and throw for the 3/10, but that wouldn’t necessarily be true. A shot that hits the right side of the 3 pin might make the 3/10 and might not. It depends on how much influence the 3 pin had on the ball.

Did the ball deflect into the imaginary 10 pin? If not, you have a third piece of information – what NOT do for the 3/10. If it did, you're lined up for the 3/10 in case you should leave one.

The same approach (pun intended) is true for all single pin spares. You’ll shoot the 4 as if it were the 4/9 or 4/10. If you do that and you hit the 4 pin in the face, you’ll know you need to move to make those spares, should you leave them. If you make the imaginary 4/9, you’ll know how to move to make the 4/10.

Shoot the 6/10 as if it were the 6/7 or 6/7/10. This is also a great way to stop chopping the 6/10 spare. You’ll notice you almost never miss the 6/10 if the 7 is with it. Then, in the very next frame, chop the 6 off the 10 if the 7 pin isn’t there. Just put the 7 there in your imagination and watch your conversion percentage skyrocket!

You’ll be surprised how much easier it is to spare if you exercise your visualization muscles."
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If I shoot at the 6 7 10 2/3 times I will take out the 10 pin. You have to barely nick the 6 to go flying to the 7. If you treat the 7 pin as if it was the 4-7, you have no room for error on the left side. if you shoot at the 4 7 and hit the 4 on the left it won't make it to the 7 pin. Same other away with the 10 pin. If i shoot at the 10 pin and treat it as if it was the 6 10. I will miss the 10 by an inch or less over and over on the left side by taking out the 6. If you treat the single pin as a single pin and aim at the center of the pin, you have room to miss on the left and room to miss on the right. Not much but some. This is in consideration that you throw straight at the spares. If you hook at spares maybe this makes more since.


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:44 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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I've had experiences like this before where I go into the tenth looking to shoot 260 something and walk away disappointed that I shot a low 230 something because I opened the tenth by missing an easy spare. I watched a guy about a month ago shoot 220 with 10 strikes because he had 2 opens sandwiched between doubles.

With regards to visualizing a different spare combo, I know from experience that it can be useful. Whenever I leave the bucket or 2, 4, 5 I always seem to pick up everything but the 5 pin. Whenever I leave the bucket I now visualize that I have the 2 8 only and I pick it up every time. I know it doesn't seem like much of a difference considering the pins involved but for me it works.

I also think to be successful in visualizing another pin is there it is important to know where your tendency to miss is.

Jason

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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2018 9:42 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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A few years ago I was giving a lesson to a high average bowler. His complaint was that he usually messed up when going into the tenth with the possibility of throwing a really high game. As he was bowling during the lesson, he had a five bagger going into the tenth. I asked him what he was going to do. He replied, "I'm going to throw three strikes." Hearing this, I handed him two of his bowling balls off of the return. He asked what he was supposed to do with two balls. I told him that if he was going to think about throwing three strikes, he might just as well start by throwing two balls at once. He got the message that you can only throw one strike at a time, so that's what you have to focus on. He's never had a problem finishing off a high game again...


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 8:28 am Post Number: #4 Post
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When you throw at the bucket what do you use? Hook at it or straight? I will throw the ball straight when I leave the bucket minus the sleeper. when I have the sleeper I usually hook at it. When I went up to the 10th frame the only thing I wanted was 1 more X or some kind of mark. I wasn't thinking about striking out because I was throwing the ball so badly. I had very little confidence going into the 10th but tried to throw the ball the best way possible. Confidence is way down because of trying to do drills right and still doing stuff wrong. I am not used to having that going on in the background. I complained the whole night talking about I wish I could throw the ball like a few other guys and get "under the ball".

Normally people might mess up because of pressure, there was no pressure either time on this. on both shots I missed left like I did about 6-7 times. Too much thinking going on, 1st prioity try to kep elbow inward close to the side, #2 let the ball do its own thing and don't pull it down or push it out into the lane #3 trying to keep track of where my hand is so I can try to lift up a little and out of the ball to get it spinning. I do best when not thinking about anything but the target. Right now the target is like on my mind 10% and everything else is 90%. I should have concentrated harder and thought more going into the 10th then what I did. I treated it like any other frame.

I messed up once before, Nationals 2017 going into the 10th frame with something that was going to be good, 250-260 I think, left a 8 pin and missed it. That cost me 3-4 places. The 8 pin remains my most feared pin to try to get.


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 2:29 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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The dinner bucket or 2-4-5: on a house shot, hook at it. On a sport shot, straight up the fifth arrow. There is no single pin spare easier than the eight pin. Simply move your feet 4 boards to the right and throw your strike shot. If you did not hit it square, adjust the number of boards until you do.


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2018 3:58 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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krava, you had previously started a thread about "the mental game".

Do you have a pre-shot routine?
Years ago Earl Anthony was asked what he was saying to himself in his stance. The question was asked because they could see his lips moving.
Earl replied, he was reminding himself about 3 cues.
Just for fun, the next time I bowled league, I tried exactly the same 3 cues on the first 11 shots, all strikes. Ball number 12, like a fool I changed 3 things to do, to 1 thing not to do, "don't tug it", of course you know I did, 8 count, not even close.

This is an excerpt from a reply in the thread you opened about mental aspects of bowling

The forum wiki contains several references.
See Coaching, Mental Game Toolbox.
Also note several videos on YouTube USBC look for Dr Dean Hinitz.
Dean wrote a few books on the mental side of the game.
See the wiki for other books on the mental side, "Inner game of tennis" is a good one.

Post#2 has an attachment showing the Tom Kouros Bowling tree, lists physical and mental facets.

viewtopic.php?f=16&t=10407&hilit=tree

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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Thu Oct 18, 2018 3:24 am Post Number: #7 Post
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I always hook at spares. Anything on the left side plus head pin and 5 pin I hook right to left. Anything on the right side plus washouts and 2 8 10 I hook left to right. My least favorite common spare is the 3 6 10 then 2 4 5.

For me the 3 6 10 is all mental because if I leave the 3 6 9 10 I will pickup 9 out of 10 times whereas when I leave the 3 6 10 I'm lucky if I pick it up 1 out of 3 times.

Single pins don't bother me and if I miss one it is because of a lack on concentration like tonight I missed a 3 pin yet picked up a 3 9 and a 3 6 10.

Jason

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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 9:35 am Post Number: #8 Post
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kajmk: i have no preshot routine right now. That is bascially I have no "shot". I am like in purgatory (between places right now). Still trying to throw the ball correctly. For example tonight 70-80% of the balls hit 2-3 boards right of where I wanted to play. Until I can throw the ball correctly, there is no use of playing different parts of the lane. I am slowly putting pieces of the proper stuff into play. I have added moving real close to where I need to shoot at, then I added not tugging down and forcing it or alteast improved alot on that, then tonight added forward tilt from time to time. When I added the forward tilt I actually hit the mark more consistanly. I got to focus on the 1 step drill and getting the left foot out and not so far before the ball comes all the way down.

bluelobster: any suggestions on the 1 2 4? I have missed it like 3/4 times now. I move right 1 board to purposly make it go brooklyn. I end up leaving the 4 and getting the 1 2. I think the 2 hits the left corner and misses the 4. The next time I shoot at this thing I am going to throw a normal strike ball. If I miss right I will miss the entire thing. I got that thing again in the 10th frame and blew a 200 game. I got close to flipping that thing off, 2 bowling sessions in a row messing me up in the 10th frame with the same exact spare and missing it the exact same way. I also missed both corner single pins by 1/2" or less which is inexcusable since I haven't missed a makeable spare in awhile. I am not going to beat myself over with it because I think I missed right trying to favor my shoulder a bit. I was going to do drills for 2 hours after bowling but too beat up to do it.

Edit: Kamjk I thought you meant Do I have a routine when bowling to find out where to play on the lane in practice before it starts. Your talking about what do I do each shot. It really depends on what is going on that night. Tonight I told myself watch the mark and stop missing right most of the time. Other times tonight I told myself don't forget to lean my body down when the ball goes up into the backswing. I know I didn't think about forearm position or release at all, I didn't think about getting under the ball. I was missing so bad right and so many times right, I tried to figure out why. I thought it was I wasn't swinging straight back and my ball was a bit on my left side so it was swing at a angle and then reverse that angle to the right when I threw it but I don't think that was it. Right now the preshot routine I have for the 1 step drill is lean body down, watch out where the ball is and make sure I know when it gets to the top of the back swing, push left leg out just a lttle, don't follow through very much with it.


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2018 3:37 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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"bluelobster: any suggestions on the 1 2 4? I have missed it like 3/4 times now. I move right 1 board to purposly make it go brooklyn. I end up leaving the 4 and getting the 1 2. "

Let's try some logic here. Bowling pins are 4 3/4" wide at their widest point. The strike pocket is approximately half way between the one pin and the three pin, hitting light on the one pin. How can you move your feet one board to the right and expect it to go to the brooklyn side which is about four inches to the left of the one-three pocket?

This is why you have trouble picking up the eight pin. Spare shooting is all about math. Making a one board (one inch) move to get a 4" result makes no sense at all! Make a four board move for the dinner bucket, and a four or five inch move for the eight pin.


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 2:32 am Post Number: #10 Post
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Krava,
I agree with Rob that a 1 board move isn't enough to go brooklyn. At best on a regular strike ball that would be good for a solid 4 pin which is what your leaving when trying to get the 1 2 4. There are to ways really to go about picking this up and that's a normal strike shot and going brooklyn. If you leave this quite often then I would not suggest throwing a normal strike ball. I shoot at it by going brooklyn and stand about halfway between where I would stand if picking up a single 2 pin and a single 4 pin.

Keep in mind that when I shoot at a single pin on the left side that my ball hits that pin on the right side. I say this so you can be aware of how you shoot at single spares and what side of the pin the ball hits so you can make an adjustment of where you stand for the combo you are trying to pick up.

Spares are only as complicated as we make it.

Jason

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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 8:59 am Post Number: #11 Post
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well to me brooklyn is anything on the left side of the pocket. If I would have hit it dead center brooklyn then I would have picked it up, I barely hit the left side. I might need to move 2 boards over. But as I think about this, it might just be best throwing a straight ball at the 1-2 pocket instead. i need to learn to get the 1 2 4 10 anyway. I leave it enough.

1 board for me is about 3-4" at the pins, don't ask me why. maybe when I move 1 board right, my launch angle changes as well, the break point changes 2-3 boards and that is what changes everything. or I also slow down the ball just a little tiny bit to get it to roll longer to hook over. But that is so many variables, I can cut all the variables out by just throwing the straight ball at the 1-2.

they changed this thing. http://www.syncpassport.com/ so had to put password and login.
user is conjetta@hotmail.com pass is bowlingchat1! but i dont' know how accurate this thing is. I remember shooting 288 (week house got destroyed), I shot 2 300's within weeks of that and they aren't showing up. Only 1 shows up on bowling.com, the other was a make up game but still should count. I think that thing is out of order also. 1st game was 184 5th fame was that 1 2 4 miss, 10th frame left a pocket 7 10. 2nd game missed both the corners early 1st and 4th frame. 3rd game i believe i did the same shot as the 1st left the 1 2 4 chopped the 4. Tons of shots going right of target all night. I was disgusted. That thing doesn't show monday nights scores or anything. also begining of the season was a nightmare, try moving 9-10 boards to the right and hit the same mark. that took a few weeks to do decently. was averaging like 185 then on top of that, move in where you stand for spares 4-5 boards right also. too much going on right now to even try to bowl good. (trying to get the 1 step drill down and practiced on it today but laptop wouldn't let me load IE and couldn't see what I needed to do so just worked on a few parts of what I know I needed to work on).

The next time I go and bowl, I am going to show you the difference 1 board makes. I am going to get a backview and get out the way. That is if I need to if you don't believe it. I purposly make it go brooklyn though and I haven't messed up doing the 1 board right thing. (what I mean by mess up, I haven't missed and hit the 1-3 or through it past brookln)

right now a normal strike ball is me standing at 21-22 hitting 8-10 (I don't try to hit 8 on purpose), for me to pick up the 8 pin, I stand at I believe 27 hit 15 and point my body right at the direction of the pin. I left atleast 3 8 pins Monday including solid 8's and got them all. i believe I got the 8 pin the last 5-6 times in a row atleast. I just don't like seeing it. if my shoulder was good I would bowl for 2 hours for that $10. Start out with a foul line drill, then 2-3 1 step drill games, then 30-45 min of spare shooting (the place has an option to just put up random pins and shoot spares, I haven't ever used it yet), then go back to 1 step drill and finish out the 2 hours. Someone somehwere said keep a book of spares you miss, I said I was going to do that and completely forgot. I got to make a note of that.


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2018 10:18 am Post Number: #12 Post
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So, you come on here complaining that what you are doing doesn't work and ask for our help. We try to help and you get your tail feathers ruffled and tell us that you are going to prove to us that what doesn't work for you is really the right thing to do. Personally, I'm done. Have a nice life!


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2018 3:25 am Post Number: #13 Post
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Rob lost me at that comment. I don't understand it. I am going to stop hooking at the 1 2 4 completely and just throw at it straight like I should be doing. But I am going to prove that moving 1 board right will make my ball hook over to the brooklyn side. My tail feathers ruffled? I am not upset at the least. I wrote pretty descriptive there. If I moved 1 board right, kept the same speed same everything then most likely I would end up dead on with the head pin and bad split. Take off tad bit of speed then it goes to the left side of that head pin, maybe not perfectly the 1 2 but on the left of the 1. I am going to have to reread what you guys wrote but I don't think anyone told me how to get it?

blue lobster: when I pick up a 4 pin I stand at 22 point my body toward the 4 and throw 3rd arrow with plastic. To pick up the 2 pin, I stand at 24/25 and hit 3rd arrow. 7 pin would be 21 and 3rd arrow.

completely missed the comment that you said this: " This is why you have trouble picking up the eight pin. Spare shooting is all about math. Making a one board (one inch) move to get a 4" result makes no sense at all! Make a four board move for the dinner bucket, and a four or five inch move for the eight pin" that does sound like it would work for the bucket and the 8.

I am not sure if I can throw the ball moving 4 more boards right, that means I stand on 16, try to hit 2nd arrow and also try to hit 8 at the breakpoint. that breakpoint would have to be moved left somehow. I will try this out see how this works though.

I am not here to get people upset I think there is a bit of confusion. I never said moving 1 board right and throwing at it is the correct way. (cant be the correct way if I missed so many times) So the answer is as you say Rob, move more right to get it. i am definitely not disagreeing about that. I am disagreeing about me personally moving 1 board right hitting same mark probably 1-2mph ball speed slower and gong left. I have done it too many times. The correct way is just straight ball. I am thinking I probably need to change arrows. go 2nd or between 2nd and 3rd at slight diagonal at the 1-2. going 3rd arrow you have to rely that the ball hooks slightly at the end and I don't like that idea.


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:32 am Post Number: #14 Post
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Krava,
I wouldn't say that a straight ball is necessarily the correct way to pick up a spare. I would classify myself as a pretty good spare shooter and I always hook at spares. What's important is to find a consistent release, consistent ball reaction, and knowing which lines to play in order to make the shot you know will pick up what your shooting at. Consistent shot making is the key.

Jason

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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 7:19 am Post Number: #15 Post
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I moved 2 boards right instead of 1 board, lined up more \ at it and picked up the 1 2 4 today. i also left the 1 2 4 10. Took the straight ball did an experiment trying to go / between the 1 and 2. Ended up throwing it between the 1 and the 10 and missed everything. Going to have to figure out where to stand to get it. this was just a first try. Also shot hook at the bucket moved 3 boards right, should have moved 4-5 like rob said, got the first one got nothing else. usually I moved 2 board right slow the ball speed down alot and play more direct at it.


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:37 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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Try moving four boards right on the approach, throw at your strike target using your strike release. If that doesn't do it, adjust your position on the approach accordingly. -- JohnP


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 Posted: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:13 am Post Number: #17 Post
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Practiced spares after other practice only used a plastic ball with no hook and came out straight under the back of the ball, no tilt no rotation. This program lets you pick what spare you want to work on and how many times you want to attept to get it. it gives you your speed per shot, which pins you got and waht you missed (green is got, red is missed) and what percentage etc. The program is called hot shot I believe.

aiming at 4th arrow shot 70% pickup the 1 2 4
https://ibb.co/iPetiA

aiming between 3rd and 4th (left side) standing 3 boards from the ball return 80% pickup
https://ibb.co/e2pjOA

8 pin >80% (ball got stuck around 6th time, I walked over to get someone to get the ball returned and the guy told me watch out the floor is wet, they were mopping the floor I didn't see and then slipped on next shot then put the shoe slider on to stop sticking so that 1 miss shouldn't count, missed it 1/9 times but pic shows 2/10 misses because of that stick.
https://ibb.co/c4ysvq
10 pin 90%
https://ibb.co/bWmsAq

4 7 90% but couldn't take a picture it restarted

wanted a challenge and put up the 3 10
https://ibb.co/e2pjOA 50% 2nd 10 tries
https://ibb.co/jJ7SbV 40% 1nst 10 tries

Shot at the same spot i shoot to get the 6 pin. I tried to straighen up and got it more but most of the time i took out the 10 pin and probably the 6 if it was still there. Got to figure out how to pick this up better then that. stood at last dot, threw 3rd arrow at a / at it so ball bounces off the 3 into the 10. i also could stand at 21 hit 8 board but then ball doesn't deflect well into the 10.


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 4:35 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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Krava,
On the 3 10 you could be creating too much angle or you could be using the wrong mark. Standing at the last dot and shooting at the 3rd arrow is the ball missing the 10 to the left or the right as that may tell you where to make your adjustment. Where do you stand for the 3 6 10 and how well do you pick that up? Depending on how you pick up the 3 6 10 you may be able to stand in the same spot for the 3 10.

Jason

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 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:06 am Post Number: #19 Post
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About as bad as it gets ...


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It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

Desiderata

Kaizen Always!

John


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 Post subject: Re: "throwing away a good game in the last frame"
 Posted: Sat Oct 27, 2018 7:34 am Post Number: #20 Post
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I have seen that one before. That is as bad as it can get in a real important game. he only lost 10 pins in that frame though. getting an open in the middle of something good can cost you -30.

A guy yesterday got lucky a few times but threw a few good balls. he had the first 3 then got 6 and 3 then struck out. he got 11 strikes and ended up with 262 (he has 171 average). At the same time, i had the first 4 then somehow left a 4 pin (then moved 1/2 board left), then struck out to the 9th frame. 9th frame ball jumped out of no where off the dry and hit extremly high (somehow left 1 2 4 which I hooked at it. I 1 board right and barely taped the headpin only got 1. Moved 1 complete board and then struck out on next shot. I was going at a 277 pace but ended up 242 by messing that frame up.

It was a real rough night thurs. I can't throw the ball / while doing a hook. Lanes got burned up I moved all the way to 25 and tried to hit 12 but kept hitting 10 somehow or pulling the ball left and throwing it brooklyn. The guy that shot 262 shot the other games in the 150s. I kept coming up short (right of the headpin) because I missed 12 and hit 10. I missed 3 makeable spares, 10 pin which I thought I had but missed it by like a coat of paint to the left. 8 pin (didn't face the pin and stood straight missed mark missed it), missed a 1 2 4 again but did line up to the left but hit 4th arrow instead of between 3rd and 4th and missed them all. Then in the 10h frame of last game I needed a mark to break 600 left a 4 8 and was confused at where to stand. I targeted the 4 pin, I moved 1 board left which should pull the ball back right and ended up getting the 8 pin. next time will target the 8 pin and move 1/2 board right which should hit the 8 on the left.

I was beating myself up saying I should have moved zones. When the ball is thrown correctly and everything is hit correctly and then the ball starts to hook way to early (not just hit high) but was I was looking at it thinking "what the hell". it is time for some major move. usually you get a sign of the ball starting to move high, but it just jumped without warning. I moved the mark from the 10th board to the 12 board but couldn't ever hit it, probably needed to move a few more boards left. I usually stand 21 hit 10, but I had to start at 24 and hit 10 because of the extreme backend of the ball. The roll of the ball was perfect 1st game, anything it hits it knocked down with messenger pins flying all over. Then moved 1/2 board when left the 4. Then moved 1 more board when the ball jumped like crazy. So when I moved to 25 I was trying to hit 11. I never did move properly in order to get to 12. I need to be at 27 or 28 to hit 12 or something. I haven't had to move and shoot / the entire season in any league so far so I wasn't expecting it. Got enough going on trying to learn how to throw the ball right.


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