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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 4:49 pm Post Number: #21 Post
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Hi krava,

First of all, who can not use a few laughs.
Here are a few ...

If you need a few laughs, watch and LISTEN carefully


Now back on topic.

I saw your post late last night. I contemplated a reply, cobbled a draft. Decided not to add any more to the pile

Submit a current video and submit to Certified Coach forum. Keep comments if any short. Let Jim review and comment. Print off all of his previous analysis of you (search forum for author=krava, forum=certified coaching", and the pictures he attached, print the new one. Keep these in a binder for review and practice sessions at lanes, at home. Share that with a friend who is observant, if they don't bowl, that's even better as they will not have their own bias.
Remember be patient, implement his plan. Perfect the changes before moving on.
If you can see yourself LIVE all the better.
A mirror with tape, a floor with tape.
Build the pyramid from the ground up.

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The short poem Desiderata contains words of wisdom for us all.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ih-HTtMtwek
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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 6:49 pm Post Number: #22 Post
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Krava,
You have posted a small library with your trials and tribulations in your quest to develop a Modern release and get your ball close to your ankle in the process.

In my opinion, you have accomplished ZERO!

Why.......it's hard to hit a moving target and your game is under constant trial and error.

It's time you start at ground zero!

Post in the Certified Coaching Section:
ONE side & back video of you performing the Foul line Drill.
ONE side & back video of you performing the Swing & Release drill.

Anotherwords I don't want to see a dozen shots, just one of each of the above.
No other shots on the video!

Use this link for reference as to the proper execution of the drills:


After evaluating your video of these drills I will provide further assistance.

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"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"


Last edited by JMerrell on Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:24 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:02 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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Agreed. Take a breath, then, drills, practice, practice, drills, loads of it. Don't try to experiment when you haven't locked down something that is repeatable.

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:25 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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JJakobsen wrote:
Agreed. Take a breath, then, drills, practice, practice, drills, loads of it. Don't try to experiment when you haven't locked down something that is repeatable.



Positive, supportive wisdom!

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It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

The short poem Desiderata contains words of wisdom for us all.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ih-HTtMtwek
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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2018 12:29 am Post Number: #25 Post
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I missed posting in here somehow. I will take you up on your offer but it will be 2-3 weeks due to my shoulder injury right now. Too much repetive bad motion pulling on it has it starting to feel like tendonitis again. I have already told Thurs bowling team on Monday that they need to find someone for 2 weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 10:56 am Post Number: #26 Post
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Posting reply here since I was told to. Going to try this week to get video for analysis but I want a few practice sessions first to get a few more things down pat.

Went today to see if my hypothesis worked. I went to the foul line stood on 18 moved my leg out of the way and put the ball to my side and rocked it back and forth to see where would I line up if I had perfect straight swing. The ball ended up over the 10 board. Long story short, I bowled 4 games. I was able to stand at 18 and not feel crowded at all about having to hit 10. i was able to hit 10 50-60% of the time, with some hitting 12 and some hitting 8 with 1 loss of balance shot. Scores were really bad but wasn't looking much at it. I don't know what was going on the lane but there was almost the entire ball return filled with house balls. My ball showed almost no sign of hook until very late and also the track was very high. I tried to work on the release while working on the swing and I had to back off the release a bit and then was able to put the 2 together for a game or two. I thought maybe my ball is burning up (there was oil rings everywhere though). I stood at 25 trying to roll across 12 and out a little but ended up doing my old bad swing habbits and hitting 10. I can walk straight and swing straight, but walking straight turning my shoulder slightly to the right and trying to keep the swing in my shoulder direction just didn't work well at all. More good news is still no pain in the shoulder and I don't feel it pulling on it because of the correction in getting the ball to start sooner.

The only issue I am worried about now is I don't want my shoulders too far leaned infront of my body when it needs to be where the hips are or turning my hand too soon trying to sweep my fingers though the ball to get a little revs on it. Ball motion today was absolutely horrid.

I did do the spine tilt thing which helps me get lower (I was told I might be getting down too low). 2nd foot steping infront of the left was done right. I probably didn't drift 1 board because I was able to hit 10 alot of times and ended out taking the 3 out most of those times.

I believe the next time I post video, it will be like a completely changed person. The movement today felt good and felt correct, it felt more natural more fluid if you want to call it that.


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:39 pm Post Number: #27 Post
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I put up 10 euro (11.76 dollars) that not a single thing has changed.

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:00 pm Post Number: #28 Post
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krava wrote:
Posting reply here since I was told to. Going to try this week to get video for analysis but I want a few practice sessions first to get a few more things down pat.

Went today to see if my hypothesis worked. I went to the foul line stood on 18 moved my leg out of the way and put the ball to my side and rocked it back and forth to see where would I line up if I had perfect straight swing. The ball ended up over the 10 board. Long story short, I bowled 4 games. I was able to stand at 18 and not feel crowded at all about having to hit 10. i was able to hit 10 50-60% of the time, with some hitting 12 and some hitting 8 with 1 loss of balance shot. Scores were really bad but wasn't looking much at it. I don't know what was going on the lane but there was almost the entire ball return filled with house balls. My ball showed almost no sign of hook until very late and also the track was very high. I tried to work on the release while working on the swing and I had to back off the release a bit and then was able to put the 2 together for a game or two. I thought maybe my ball is burning up (there was oil rings everywhere though). I stood at 25 trying to roll across 12 and out a little but ended up doing my old bad swing habbits and hitting 10. I can walk straight and swing straight, but walking straight turning my shoulder slightly to the right and trying to keep the swing in my shoulder direction just didn't work well at all. More good news is still no pain in the shoulder and I don't feel it pulling on it because of the correction in getting the ball to start sooner.

The only issue I am worried about now is I don't want my shoulders too far leaned infront of my body when it needs to be where the hips are or turning my hand too soon trying to sweep my fingers though the ball to get a little revs on it. Ball motion today was absolutely horrid.

I did do the spine tilt thing which helps me get lower (I was told I might be getting down too low). 2nd foot steping infront of the left was done right. I probably didn't drift 1 board because I was able to hit 10 alot of times and ended out taking the 3 out most of those times.

I believe the next time I post video, it will be like a completely changed person. The movement today felt good and felt correct, it felt more natural more fluid if you want to call it that.


Post a video so You can get a routine to practice, no need to worry about the peanut gallery.

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:47 am Post Number: #29 Post
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I am going to do that 44boyd. I am at the point I just give up. (not at the point where I am about to give up, it is the point where I am done it is over nothing more can be done on my end) it still looks the same. Thurs after bowling I will get whatever shots needed for Jim. I will bring my laptop to read everything. Whatever I said in the above msg was a lie still looks the same to me almost.

https://youtu.be/U5bDNHo6NPM (last video I am posting there is no more I can do)


There is some improvement. I used to drift 5+ boards to the right. I used to stand at 28 (minimum) and hit 10. now I start off at 18 and then move. in the video I start at 19 (already threw 2-3 games before this). Look toward the last few minutes of the video. I start at 20 and end at 20. 0 board drift. how many people have a 0 board drift? that is not easy to do. I am hitting my target pretty well. I have my right foot infront of the left foot and I know I keep my arm straight on the swing but my first step to the left might pull my swing to the left a bit.

I start with the ball to my side and I let it go back and it ends up on my side. the only way for that ball to go inside of that is if I let the ball drop back toward the left to start instead of straight back. I try to keep my hand the same postion as it should be when I do the foul line drill but I just don't see it in the video anywhere. I can feel my hand position and it feel correct. I believe these people in these elite videos are taking the ball, letting the ball go back and keeping their arm bent. Then when they reach the top of the swing, they scoop the ball down toward the inside and then let it go.

The main thing I am worried about now is I need to get my hand in the right position at the release and no clue how to do that I have tried it all. Then after I figure that out I have to figure out how to swing the ball out throwing it like that.


Sorry about all the post, I want to get this fixed as fast as possible. that is why I am bowlng even though I can feel the tendons in my shoulders front and back hurting a bit, places on my thumb etc. I don't see why this is so hard. I am very good at figuring things out.

I did 2 games of foul line drill then 1 game of 1 step drill which I can't figure that out even. My ball still didn't look like a good roll in either of those.


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:51 pm Post Number: #30 Post
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Why we bother is beyond me but here goes 1 last time.



in particular see 10:50 for hand positions & LISTEN to Duke @ 15 mins. See Tackett's open hand {Nike swoosh} @ 20:40 in follow thru. {Doesn't look anything like yours}
Good luck!


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2018 4:56 pm Post Number: #31 Post
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krava, playing through pain and discomfort when trying to make changes is not going to help your chances.

I've mentioned taking Jim's lesson plans to the center.
Read them in front of a witness before each shot.

Here is part of Jim's previous lesson plan from your post in Certified Coachs forum.
You can practice this with a can of beans, and do it at home, in front of a mirror.
I looked at your video, you are not doing step 2 and 3.
You are building the attic before laying down the foundation.
Work with a friend, get immediate honest feedback.


Excerpt from Jim Merrell lesson plan.

Suggestions:
1) Shorten the first step by at least a foot.
2) During practice, slide the first step forward….don’t lift it off the floor. This is often called a shuffle step versus a walking step.
3) At the top of your swing work on rotating your upper body more clockwise and feel as though your left shoulder is under your chin. This will help get the ball more in line with your head at the top of the swing when viewed from the back.


Not piling on here buddy, just reporting what I see and how it compares to Coachs advise.

I used to work with the wife of a Major League Baseball hitting coach.
One comment he made that will always stick out is that by the time a player makes a roster, all too often, they think they know it all. They may not say it, but their actions show it.
Many times those guys go back to the minors never get back to the dance.

Actions speak louder than words, my friend.

Trust the man like you were paying him for instruction!!

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:41 am Post Number: #32 Post
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I am going to give Jim what he wants on thursday and most likely go to Dallas and get a Silver coach to watch me do whatever the plans say to do on Saturday.

Pain isn't really there until later. Right now there is nothing. I am going to the gym in about 15 minutes do work on the shoulder and do the hour on the elipical.


imagonman: I watched EJ tacket. From what I am seeing is there is no completely straight backswing. He lets the ball swing to the top and then he takes it and completely takes control of the direction he wants it to go in. I don't know if this makes since but he "grabs it at the top and then underhands it" then snaps out of the ball like the whip they showed. Norm duke talked about letting the ball fall and then excellerate out of it. So don't just let the ball fall and it it come out of your hand. Hitting up on the ball is where you start forcing the ball from the back of the arm swing right? So at the bottom where Norm Duke is talking about, then you sort of "hit it up" there? Just like snap out of the ball, don't let it just come off your fingers. I got to get to the gym but will re read this when I get back. Thanks for the video.


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 5:19 am Post Number: #33 Post
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krava wrote:

imagonman: I watched EJ tacket. From what I am seeing is there is no completely straight backswing.
I don't care about his backswing that's not the point I'm trying to get you to SEEE!
He lets the ball swing to the top and then he takes it and completely takes control of the direction he wants it to go in. I don't know if this makes since but he "grabs it at the top and then underhands it" then snaps out of the ball like the whip they showed. Norm duke talked about letting the ball fall and then excellerate out of it. So don't just let the ball fall and it it come out of your hand. Hitting up on the ball is where you start forcing the ball from the back of the arm swing right?
NO!
So at the bottom where Norm Duke is talking about, then you sort of "hit it up" there?
AGAIN NO_NO_NO!! There is NO hitting UP on the ball EVER! You are trying to deliver the ball DOWN & INTO the lane, like an airplane landing-- smooth-smooth-smooth!
What I am trying to get you to SEE is your hands finishing position compared to their's. It's a product of the release, Especially Tackett's. Look Also @ PDW [see below]. THE HAND is wide open fingers splayed out like they are waving to someone. The palm is usually facing the pins or towards the left at most w/ the wrist broken back, NOT still cupped/bent towards the forearm facing YOU. LIKE Duke said, ".....don't forget to RELEASE the wrist..."
AND look @ that video what Norm shows you w/ his arm & wrist!!! YOURS is bass akwards & don't look like that ever in the 2 yrs. Big Jim & us have trying to help you w/ this. HELLO, you look but don't SEE, have ears that don't HEAR. Pay close attn to what your TOLD here.
NOT fingers clenched/closed, w/ index finger pointing @ the left wall like yours is. Another observation is in the finish your elbow is RIGHT & your hand is LEFT. Again, bass akwards.

If you do not understand what you are aiming to achieve in the end, you'll never get there.

Just like snap out of the ball, don't let it just come off your fingers. I got to get to the gym but will re read this when I get back. Thanks for the video.


Attachment:
PDW finish.png


I'll let Jim handle attempting to build your approach from the ground up. Good luck Jim!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Last edited by imagonman on Fri Sep 28, 2018 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2018 3:32 pm Post Number: #34 Post
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To any student who really wants to learn and do ...


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 6:25 am Post Number: #35 Post
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dont' want to post anything unneccessary in coaching forum but will post here. Hoepfully someone that has had simular problems that I have now and they fixed them might know what can be dnoe or tips to do to get this fixed.

Anyone familar with doing these drills have problems like what I have? Foul line drill, I end up turning my forearm on the side I believe. Also the ball is all over. at first it ended up in right gutter, then they start going across the lane and then some end up closer to the headpin? Where is this ball suppose to end up so you know you did it right? Also this is not the slowinski version because I have no wrist cock at any time during this. that is why the ball looks so bad when rolled but that is the way it will be unless told otherwise. Also I tried making my left foot be like a tree, straight and strong but somehow it looks like it leans way to the left and I have no idea why. I try to plant it there and keep it there but it doesn't. you can see in the video I try to plant it there.


Foul line drill

For the 1 step drill anyone else have problem trying to keep the forearm straight? any tips? I think that is throwing it all off.


1 step drill

For you guys who have done this, how many practice sessions did you have to do, to get these right?

I bowled approx 2 games each doing these. I bowled 1 game normal afterwords. For the one game normal, I started off with a double, 3rd shot pulled down on the ball in the backswing and ended up with a split 3 pins on the right side 1 on the left. Threw at the 10 missed them all. next shot left a 10 pin and then moved 1 board left. After that Every single shot was a repeat, same speed, same mark same swing, same release, it was mirrored and went out with X. ended with 248. I didn't think about trying to "hit up" or give the ball something extra at the bottom.

My drills feel "real bad" and I did a few more things right then last time but still don't have it all right.

once the 1 step is done right, isn't the regular arroach with that alot easier?


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:01 pm Post Number: #36 Post
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Hey, Special "k" the topic title is a misnomer, don't you think? This threaded nothing to do with Nord ...

There's an old saying that too many cooks spoil the broth, so I'm not going to offer any opinions for several reasons.

Let me share this bit of personal soul baring here. I once studied under an elite coach.
He gave me a few simple things to focus on as lesson 1.
Through my own fault, I never got to lesson 2. Ego, lack of belief, ... ?

The above is true, the coach ultimately ended our sessions.

Tug McGraw said "Ya gotta believe".

This post and responses may be of interest.
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=14032

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 6:50 pm Post Number: #37 Post
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krava wrote:
dont' want to post anything unneccessary in coaching forum but will post here. Hoepfully someone that has had simular problems that I have now and they fixed them might know what can be dnoe or tips to do to get this fixed.

Anyone familar with doing these drills have problems like what I have? Foul line drill, I end up turning my forearm on the side I believe. Also the ball is all over. at first it ended up in right gutter, then they start going across the lane and then some end up closer to the headpin? Where is this ball suppose to end up so you know you did it right? Also this is not the slowinski version because I have no wrist cock at any time during this. that is why the ball looks so bad when rolled but that is the way it will be unless told otherwise. Also I tried making my left foot be like a tree, straight and strong but somehow it looks like it leans way to the left and I have no idea why. I try to plant it there and keep it there but it doesn't. you can see in the video I try to plant it there.


Foul line drill

For the 1 step drill anyone else have problem trying to keep the forearm straight? any tips? I think that is throwing it all off.


1 step drill

For you guys who have done this, how many practice sessions did you have to do, to get these right?

I bowled approx 2 games each doing these. I bowled 1 game normal afterwords. For the one game normal, I started off with a double, 3rd shot pulled down on the ball in the backswing and ended up with a split 3 pins on the right side 1 on the left. Threw at the 10 missed them all. next shot left a 10 pin and then moved 1 board left. After that Every single shot was a repeat, same speed, same mark same swing, same release, it was mirrored and went out with X. ended with 248. I didn't think about trying to "hit up" or give the ball something extra at the bottom.

My drills feel "real bad" and I did a few more things right then last time but still don't have it all right.

once the 1 step is done right, isn't the regular arroach with that alot easier?


So now krava you are analyzing yourself yet again. Sorry I see no progress here to speak of, truly. Same ole same ole, little has changed. I have to ask. What is the purpose of you wanting to change? {end goal/objective?}

Foul line drill - 1st 7 mins = waste of time -done all wrong. What/ Did you think about the hand & armswing only after doing it wrong for 7 mins? You need a HANDS ON instructor right there w/ you that KNOWS what the goal of these drills are. This internet video crap is not working. You need realtime coaching. This isn't working, only creating more confusion for Dan.

Seriously, since you can't seem to execute the drills or armswing, release , follow-through positions. Why are you continuing to add only confusion to your game? Why not just hone what you already have & as kajmk says be the best YOU that you can be. It's not like you're just a 150 avg bowler or something that needs a serious overhaul of the game top to bottom. You carry what a 210 or so? Work on what you have & making that the best IT can be instead of screwing up what you already have. The changes you WANT & the speed of trying to accomplish them on the fast track ain't workin'!! I just don't get/see it!


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 11:31 pm Post Number: #38 Post
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giving up is not in my nature here. I have to agree, little to no change. I think the entire problem is the hand postion. I have to keep my hand on the left side of the ball the entire time. I never feel the weight of the ball on my fingers. If I keep the hand on the left I should feel them. I am going tonight and practice more drills. I should have something significant to add later today.

One thing I think I homed in on is that the swing is not suppose to be completely straight. If it is completely straight you end up with what I am doing now. The swing needs to be a very slight / toward the back so the ball can tuck under the shoulder/ then the ball should go straight down and I don't think the arm is suppose to be completely extended in the back of the arm swing, if it is, then the ball gets pulled because of the body's momentum.

"you have to crawl before you can walk". I am going to start off with Jim's drills focusing on doing them correctly and focus on keeping hand on the left side of the ball even in the back swing. Then move on and try a few shots.

You ask me why change? I have averaged around 220 the last 3 outings. 693 618 630 If I can average that throwing the ball wrong, what could I average doing it correctly? That is the answer I want to find out. This to me isn't much of a change, the biggest change is keeping the hand on the inside of the ball and not the outside the way I see it. Still the same approach (4 step), same release.

I agree a coach is best, every coach I went to so far says I have no problems but that is wrong. I do appreicate the comments Good or bad. I don't want anyone to "sugar coat" the truth. I tell it how it is and people should do.

No matter what happens, I have fixed a few things in my game.
#1 stopped forcing the ball
#2 moved closer to where I need to be when I throw the ball (right 10 boards).
etc


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 12:06 am Post Number: #39 Post
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Special "k", obviously you are not content to rest on your laurels. You want to improve.
You are smart enough to realize you are not as good as you might be.

Belief and commitment are essential components to successful change.
The old axiom success is a journey, not a destination applies.

Don't fall into the trap of equating a bowling average as an accurate gauge of how good a bowler is. As you know, the oil patterns have a lot to do with what we can average. The
Stu Williams aka Beef Stew is averaging 256 on a house shot here. I mentioned Stu because if you've followed the PBA tour, you recognize the name. One of the ladies is averaging 220.
Overall scoring for the league is down, for several reasons ...

Bowling at the sporting level rewards accuracy and consistency.

As far as coaching, Jim has a great eye. I would die a happy man if I were anywhere near his level.

Watch this video with Richard Schockley, in the latter part of the video he discusses a session with Walter Ray Williams at Kegel.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=nK5HO__gB ... E&index=14

Long happy life to you sir!

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It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.

The short poem Desiderata contains words of wisdom for us all.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ih-HTtMtwek
John


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:21 am Post Number: #40 Post
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I don't judge someone too much on what their average is. There isn't anyone in the entire bowling alley except maybe the proshop guy (who's dad owns the other bowling alley), that throws the ball correctly.

When I look at someone to see how good I thnk they are. The first thing I look for is how do they handle spares. Do they hook the ball at every spare. If so they don't know how to throw a straight ball and they will do poorly trying that on a flat pattern. Then I look to see footwork and do they keep the fingers on the left side of the ball in the backswing (right handed). I then look at the rotation of the ball and how it rolls down the lane.

You got to be able to play on different types of oil, heavy, light, medium and be able to move around anywhere on the lane. Also houses are different, I don't know about that one in AZ. Plano superbowl in Dallas is a joke, I went over there for a coach a few years ago and averaged like 260 there for a few games.


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