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 Post subject: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:08 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Finally had time to get this done. I am still trying to deal with the Modern release. To do the modern release sort of correctly, I have to turn my hand inward as much as possible and try to get the weight of the ball on my index finger at the start trying to keep my wrist sort of twisted so I can come out of it correctly at the end. The video shows the wrist is broken outword when the fingers exit and I don't know why. I feel my fingers sweep across the ball. This was my 3rd attempt at trying this out.

I bowled a game to get used to where the line was for the Full roller stand 25 (straight up 8 board). For the modern Stand at 29/30 over 13 out to 10 and back in. (and yes I know ball is no where near the ankle in either style)


Game 1 https://youtu.be/ex9SkKIwEds

results Full Roller 195 Modern 178 (bad throwing of the ball for modern)

Game 2 https://youtu.be/W-PU1AEOn5E (partial Thumb almost tore started feeling it blister so put liquid bandage on it)

Game 2 part 2 https://youtu.be/gw-Dil4uc7o

Results: full Roller 172 Modern 213

Game 3: https://youtu.be/wd-g9fYW57A

results: Full roller 215 Modern 259 Camera was dieing and I rushed a few shots. Full roller could have been a little higher but no way could have beat the Modern.

I would skip down to game 3 and watch that. you can see the difference in the power of the hits. Full Roller started off the first 4. Full roller had almost no miss room. I had miss room on both sides with the Modern. i don't even think I was looking at the arrows with the modern, I was trying to get the release down and throw it somewhere between 2nd and 3rd. in some of the Modern shots you can see the ball motion change.

Full roller I used a rotogrip Hustle Drilled pin down for control. It is the weakest ball I own but best for the shot I had. For the Modern I used a radical Ridiculous which is just a medium oil ball. Both balls are 16lbs. For Spares, most of the time I threw it normal (straight under the back of the ball). not too many spares were missed so that wasn't the factor in this. The main thing is see the difference in how the ball hits the pins.


I bowled 2 games after this at the same time Low ball game score 71 Modern was 233 after 6 3 first frame. Ball went wide and bad release and left the left side row 1 2 4 7. hooked the ball and left the 7. The 4 went into the wall and bounced around it. Then struck like Mad.


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:48 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Staying more behind the ball is not the same as modern release. I still see lift in your "modern release" shots and a lot of muscle. Your release movement is upwards and short. The modern release is more like unfolding your hand, effortlessly letting the ball roll, the speed of your cock-uncock movement is what makes the release and gives the ball more revs. Your release should be vertically downwards and horizontally long, extend your flatspot for that matter. You have to completely unload the ball. Now, I do not consider your scores between one and the other style matters to determine if you´re doing it properly.

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 4:43 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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krava,

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... f_the_ball

Recall Jim's analysis
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=12100&p=93686#p93686

Also, review
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... e_Coaching
Capture the entire bowler.

Finally, form is a key component of function. "The whole is equal the sum of the parts".
The fastest train is of no benefit if it's on the wrong track.

Just an opinion, but your release should not be your primary focus until you can execute Jim's plan. To take your mind off scoring, roll straight balls at the 6 pin.
No matter the era or style, almost every elite bowler has had good form and LEVERAGE.


Submitted as encouragement. You work very hard, no doubt, I'd like to see you get closer to what Jim illustrated.

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Last edited by kajmk on Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:52 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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So you've been working on getting the ball closer to ankle & under head for over 2 yrs. now - not accomplished yet!

You did some foul line & 1 step drills once or twice recently - Now in these videos you're doing a comparison between a Full Roller & 'modern' release, which you have NOT mastered, & are alternating between them. I call this a sure fire recipe for disaster. Your 'modern' is nowhere near that release.
Look @ your hand, it's in the upper right quandrant @ release.
Attachment:
mod rel NOT.png


Your hand @ follow thru is - fingers curled palm left, arm left. Where's the Nike swoosh? i.e. your lifting/hitting the $h1T out of the release. Like 2y2 said - muscling it! Don't look much different than it did 2 yrs. ago.
Attachment:
finish comp 02.png


You also said you'd get a side shot of your approach 2 yrs. ago - Need a new one now too.

Besides j merril's post suggestions from 2 rs. ago -excellent analysis & advice BTW- I believe the ankle distance and ball height @ release problems {lack of Leverage} are due to inefficient use of the legs- i.e. KNee bend. Your leverage seems forced w/ only upper body strength & no legs for drive. Your legs/knees straighten @ release - NO knee continuation. Like Jim said get that slide foot underneath your center not way out to the left & get the right side/hip cleared more left as well. I don't see any difference from the clips of 2 yrs. ago posted above by kajmk & these recent ones. Execution of technical form has not been addressed @ this point. That needs to happen or release changes aren't going to do too awful much to improve otherwise less than optimum { for You} physical technique.

Lot's of work to do moving forward to improve & change some things here.


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 7:58 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Dumb question, would more of a figure 8 swing potentially help him get the ball closer to the ankle?

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:16 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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44boyd wrote:
Dumb question, would more of a figure 8 swing potentially help him get the ball closer to the ankle?


Some bad advice right there.
He needs to drop his shoulder more.

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:34 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Some bad advice right there.
He needs to drop his shoulder more.

No advice was given, I asked a question. Saying something vs explaining how to get there could help solve the issue. Like leading with the inside of the elbow helped me to stay behind the ball more. It’s what made it click. Saying DYDS doesn’t present a feeling or that “a-ha” moment. At least for me.

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 8:48 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Some bad advice right there.
He needs to drop his shoulder more.


Figure 8 BAD @ this point. This ain't no quick fix!

Dropping the right shoulder AFTER he fixes the left foot slide to more under him NOT away as is present, will be easy & he'll be on balance. He falls away now, don't need him on the floor or worse.
He is NOT throwing from a stable base now. More spine tilt right exacerbates the problem until the unstable base is fixed. Thats' what I believe J Merril was trying to get at w/ him 2 yrs. ago. The foundation is not there now. Repair this from the ground up! Otherwise...…..OY VEY!


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:20 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Regarding hitting up on the ball.
Consider trying Stu Williams follow through
Look for Spigner's analysis Nov 2014
http://www.billspigner.com/articles

Also consider your grip pressure. If the ball fits well you do not have to squeeze.
Relax the hand!

Read Mo's advice post #9
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=3080&p=24507&hilit=Forehead#p24507

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:18 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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44boyd wrote:
No advice was given, I asked a question. Saying something vs explaining how to get there could help solve the issue. Like leading with the inside of the elbow helped me to stay behind the ball more. It’s what made it click. Saying DYDS doesn’t present a feeling or that “a-ha” moment. At least for me.


This advise was given to him by me in a different thread last week. I broke down video and all. The problem is that he is worried about score and that is the only thing he sees as right or wrong.

We all know what krava is about and he let's any advice go in one ear and out the other without putting in real work. I pray that one day he finds what he is looking for.


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:28 am Post Number: #11 Post
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I think it’s awesome y’all break down the photos and stuff to help people, one day I’ll get around to get a video of myself so I can learn more.

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:46 am Post Number: #12 Post
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I haven't read this but I am going to do it in one sec but I think I have figured out a breakthough in this from watching videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvfNuoIQcIk

I just watched that.

I also watched: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3tKsPdQ1s8Q

but when I watched the 2nd one I made an assumption that the modern release had to be a 5 step approach so I looked for the 4.

I don't know why no one has said anything about this but I see a MAJOR mistake that I am doing. The major mistake that I am doing is in the swing. When I drop the ball and the ball goes down, I am already on the right side of the ball. I need to be on the left side of the ball. Being on the left side of the ball is where these people are in both of these videos. So i will repeat, when my swing reaches the top I need to be more on the left side of the ball (almost palming the ball or something). In the videos you see that the ball needs to be on the left side of the head in the highest point of the swing. So I am going to go tomorrow and see how that works. Now let me read these comments.


score is not the issue. I tried to work on this in league for the last 2 weeks still in the 500s. monday went back to the old way was close to mid 650's. I am going to print out these comments take them back to the bowling alley tomorrow. I will will start with Jim's comments from 2 years ago. I know I have been working on the ankle thing for 2 years and I think it is because of the swing and now getting my hand on the inside of the ball all the way through it. I thought i was getting a little progress because of the change in ball motion.


menoRevs: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13917 is where you commented on.
What I am lost on is that from where I see in the picture, My ball is lower down then Dave. Dave's ball is where the direct opposite of his kneecap is. my ball is almost to my calf. Isn't my shoulder lower then him if I have to bend that far over to have that ball there? The lower you bend the more you drop your shoulder so I am confused there.

The weak wrist I believe has to do with my hand being on the outside of the ball starting from the downswing. i will get video of that and see how that works along with side video. I am kind of beat up right now. left hip hurting and thumb with blister but will do what I can.


imagonman: If i keep my hand on the left side of the ball in the swing there will be some kind of loop motion at the end because I tried it with no ball and there has to be.


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:34 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Focus on the suggestions already made to you to fix the lower half first

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:19 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Will start with progress first:

https://unsee.cc/63362515/ Ball closer to foot, problem wrist is in the wrong position. index finger is pointed at 4 and should be at 6pm. (I know how to fix that though). I don't know how to put pictures directly into here.

https://youtu.be/W6rtRvzHqdQ (4 good shots out of the bunch. 1st shot looks like done correctly, other shots might be in a bad hand positon at the release but still closer to the foot)

https://youtu.be/VVkZd4S5ao4 (how did this thing hook? My hand was on the right side of the ball and not in the proper position)

For the 1 step drill I used a 9lb conventional grip M (medium drilled) house ball. For the first game I kept my fingers deep in the holes. In the 2nd game or half or something i decied to just put them half way down and grip hard. (I couldn't use my balls since my thumb hole was too big at the time for whatever reason.) I decided to use a 9lb one so I can put the ball in different positions to see how I am suppose to get to that postion. I figured out at the end of the 3rd game that my hand needs to be sort of twisted when I get it back ready to release. I can feel my index finger pointing down. I think I could have done better with a fingergrip ball with tighter fingers. The thumb was snug but that was about it.

https://youtu.be/Bgo7dZKmUeU (foul line drill)
https://youtu.be/n6d6IBURn24 1st game (1 step drill practice with 9lb conventional grip plastic ball)
https://youtu.be/VXQu73FtPno 2nd game (1 step drill)
https://youtu.be/vm3--bZ5RCw (game 3 1 step drill)


Going to be the last practice probably for a week or two. I am really feeling it in my shoulder where I tore it in 2 places. hip still hasn't healed and been sore for a week because so many games bowling. Finger is blistered in 2 places, wrist is sore, etc. Will get back to practice when I am able but I think I hopefully figured something out in this. 1 main problem I know I have is the ball is in the wrong postion right before the release most of the time.


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:08 am Post Number: #15 Post
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here is a good article that I came across still reading:

https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowlin ... rn-part-1/

part 2
https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowlin ... rn-part-2/

off topic is another one:
https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowlin ... ting-data/

anyone keep a record of what they miss and if they got it? I thought about it but haven't done it but I guess I need to. I didn't know joe Slowinski still wrote articles.

9/16 watched more videos
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQI-PIDRp7I Anyone know who gutterbowler on youtube is?

I was told to have more lateral spine tilt but never told how to do it. So I am thinking ok tilt my body more to the right and that is lateral spine tilt. This video in there somewhere gives you an idea how to do it. in order to do it, you need first need to have your ball in your stance so that your non bowling eye is in the center of the ball. if you tilt your body to the right, you can also tilt your ball to the right and still have your non bowling eye the same distance away from the ball as it was before you started to tilt your body over. By keeping your non bowling eye in the center of the ball, the ball will be on the left side or center of the ball during the swing (if you don't mess up anything else). Also remember in the other video that the ball should line up with the shoulder seam of the bowling arm

So if I am getting this straight, the stance should be shoulder square stand straight. Then put the ball into position where the right shoulder seam is so the ball can just fall straight down. Then keep the ball straight don't move it and then move your head so that your non bowling eye is in the center of the ball. Then the next step is bend the knees a little. Also I believe that most of the body weight is on the left foot (right hand 4 step approach).


Last edited by krava on Sun Sep 16, 2018 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 1:31 am Post Number: #16 Post
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44boyd wrote:
Focus on the suggestions already made to you to fix the lower half first


Good advice Stacy.

I've had the pleasure of knowing a few really good Coachs, they got results with all levels and age groups. One of them coached Pro Bowlers in every equipment era and was also an expert ball drilled.

I know that when I did what they said, I improved within the limits of my athletic ability.

I recommended him to a bowler once. He told me, he tried him, but he wanted him to change his game. Go figure ...

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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2018 7:28 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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krava, there are very important things you can practice and not have to do so at any bowling center.
Del Warren talks of this in his presentation.

Fast forward to
1:05:27 Del Warren – Dynamic Player Evaluations


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:18 am Post Number: #18 Post
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kajmk: thanks for the video but I am not sure how much I got out of it. I watched from 1:05 to 1:28 if I need to watch longer let me know. He mentions that there is alot of things that can be done at home and not at the bowling alley. Again it is told something can be done but not how to do it. I already practice at home. I stand in the stance, Grab a 5lb weight and do an approach. Also yesterday I grabbed a lighter 15lb ball and did some swing practice looking back to make sure that I have my hand on the inside of the ball.

I am going to go bowling tonight and watch myself and hopefully not get hurt. i am going to take it as easy as possible because league is tomorrow and I am in sort of dire straights. imagonman is right about changing things up, I am like all screwed up right now. My swing is really messed up because I know what I am suppose to do and I don't want to keep doing it wrong. going from being on the right side of the ball (wrong way) to the left side is a huge change and I haven't even thrown one ball with the 4 step approach to even try it out. They got me at like 220 average on Monday which isn't fair to me since I didn't even bowl enough games on that league. I can't go back to full roller and average that. and the other way I will be thinking about my swing and trying not to do it wrong so I am in bad shape right now.


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 3:51 am Post Number: #19 Post
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one thing I got out of the video is that he says that you have to first address what the Cause of the problem is first.

my main problem I have is I am ending up on the outside of the ball when I get to the foul line. Because of this, Several problems #1 ball to far from ankle #2 ball doesn't have the motion it should because of how it is released.

After watching today and doing things, I think the cause of the problem is : I have a broken wrist as soon as I get to the top of the backswing. I might be on the inside of the ball when I get there, but then when it hits the highest point, the wrist bends back and then the ball falls to the right side somehow.

https://youtu.be/z0-aHicDRQI pre practice
https://youtu.be/LctOlwEx0MA 2nd game practice
https://youtu.be/Z1WbIrTjUw4 3rd practice game


now hot to fix? concentrate on making sure the hand is in the cuppped position when I get to the top of the backswing?

thinking seriously about going to the IRTC to try to get that fixed. Do you think they can fix that or not worth the time?


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 Post subject: Re: For Nord: Full roller vs Modern Release Experiment
 Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2018 12:09 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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Your timing is late so you pull the ball. Work on the suggestions above to get your footwork/lower half fixed first.

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