Bowling in 1980?

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Bowling in 1980?

Post by RobMautner »

A few days ago I was watching a couple of seniors practicing. One of the bowlers is a current league bowler who averages about 220. The other is a former Tour Player from the 1970's. As I observed their ball reactions and listened to their conversation, it occurred to me that their bowling beliefs were formed around 1980, and never changed. Are you bowling in 2018, or in 1980? You are bowling in 1980 if you still believe that:

• The two lanes that make up a "pair" should play the same.
• The oil is responsible if they don't play the same.
• You can always play the 2nd arrow on a house shot.
• You only need to watch your own ball reaction to adjust.
• Adjustments are always 2 and 1.
• You can "make" a ball hook.
• One bowling ball hooks more than another.
• You can ignore the core, because surface is 75% of ball reaction.
• Pin up balls go longer.
• Carry down has a negative effect on reactive resin balls.

How many of these do you still believe to be true?
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by MegaMav »

RobMautner wrote: • You can "make" a ball hook.
• One bowling ball hooks more than another.
#1 - You can soften up and get a ball to hook, yes.
#2 - Resin hooks more than plastic?
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by RobMautner »

MegaMav wrote:
#1 - You can soften up and get a ball to hook, yes.
#2 - Resin hooks more than plastic?
The idea of "making" a ball hook is not softening up on speed, it is the fact that most league bowlers are still trying to turn the ball to make it hook rather than rolling it and letting it hook.

Of course resin hooks more than plastic. The idea here is that many league bowlers buy reactive resin bowling balls based on the belief that one ball hooks more than another, rather than understanding that one ball simply hooks sooner than another.

Thanks for letting me clarify.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by krava »

(wow I guess I was bored this is a long one)

In 1989

• The two lanes that make up a "pair" should play the same. (agreed back then)
• The oil is responsible if they don't play the same. (agreed back then)
• You can always play the 2nd arrow on a house shot. (nothing exist but 2nd arrow back then, the only board on the lane was the 10 board, there was no 9, 11, 12 etc. I never played any other board no matter what. I wasn't told to)
• You only need to watch your own ball reaction to adjust. ( no comment)
• Adjustments are always 2 and 1. (the only adjustment was speed or move left or right .5-1 board)
• You can "make" a ball hook. (couldn't really get any ball to hook very well at all)
• One bowling ball hooks more than another. (thought they did but never saw it or experienced in then)
• You can ignore the core, because surface is 75% of ball reaction. (didn't know about core or surface back then. I think the core and surface of all the balls in 1980s were close to the same)
• Pin up balls go longer. (didn't know about pin up or pin down back then
)
• Carry down has a negative effect on reactive resin balls. (don't think I knew about carry down back then. Also resin balls didn't exist)


1989 I had a red fab hammer also had a phantom but didn't use, had blue angle, yellow angle didn't use much. hopefully 1989 is the right year. born in 73 and I was 16. Age 16 shot 278, 267 then someone came in late threw me off the game and shot 180 for 725. Had my name put on a plaque in the bowling alley (southgate lanes). Took forever until 2015 or so to break that (that with 25 years or so of layoff). 1991 or so had a blue rhino (not sure if that was urethane or resin), bowled 251 in YABA LA state tournament and won singles.


My point is alot of people don't know the correct answers to those questions and can still do decent. if people want to be "elite" then they need to learn and make sure they understand why the correct answers are the correct answers. I got sidetracked here. i think Rob's point is that people are not willing to learn new things or try things and stuck in their own thinking. If they are, they will be suck at the point where they are as good as they are going to get and that is it. if you are willing to try new things and test new things etc then you can improve. That is what I am doing now. I am going to completely change the way the ball is being thrown and see how much further I can go.


going to attempt to answer these with the knowledge now:

• The two lanes that make up a "pair" should play the same. (I am going to try to play them the same until I see some kind of ball motion that shows me otherwise).

• The oil is responsible if they don't play the same. (your topography answer is there)

• You can always play the 2nd arrow on a house shot. (good place to start but still try to find a place with the widest miss room and still have good ball motion). Go to a house with wooden lanes and big back ends and wouldn't recommend 2nd arrow to start at all.

• You only need to watch your own ball reaction to adjust. (left hander people ball reaction won't help, plastic ball ball reaction won't help. I will watch people that play in my area (or around my breakpoint) and see how their reaction is and adjust if I see the ball suddenly jump or die)

• Adjustments are always 2 and 1. (limitless almost. .5 , 1, 1 and 1, 2 and 1, 3 and 2 most common then you might decide to play in an area no one has jump back right 10 and 3 etc)

• You can "make" a ball hook. (if there isn't an extreme amount of oil on the lane then you can make any ball hook. Seen people take a house ball and hook it into the gutter. The idea isn't trying to make the ball hook, it suppose to let the ball hook on its own. I am guilty about trying to put more on the ball just to make it hook a tad more)

• One bowling ball hooks more than another. (too much discussion there. But will give you this. take the US national pattern. use a light oil ball, like a tropical storm, then take a very high end heavy oil ball. That heavy oil ball will out hook that tropical storm. Too many factors in that generalized statement such as how the lanes are oiled, how the balls are drilled, what surface is on what ball etc

• You can ignore the core, because surface is 75% of ball reaction. (I still don't know much about the core. I know the larger the core the faster the ball will get into a spin thus wanting to roll earlier (or it is the reverse of that. Then you have your off center (asymmetric cores) and the ball can flip once something happens instead of a nice smooth reaction on a symmetric.

• Pin up balls go longer. (I just told someone the other day that they do so I guess I am wrong. if you have 2 balls drilled the same but one is pin up and one is pin down, I thought you might get an extra 2 feet out of it, if you keep it in the oil? you can drill a ball to do what you want but keeping everything the same dual angles etc I thought it was tad bit longer)

• Carry down has a negative effect on reactive resin balls. (if there is carry down from plastic balls and a pearl ball hits that carry down before it starts to hook, it will delay that hook and go too long. if i have a ball and it is already hooking and I hit carry down, then it should cut through the carry down and shouldn't have an effect. But i could be wrong here as well but that is what my current thinking is). I will say this, lets say the lanes get drier and there is carry down, that carry down could be a good thing by putting some oil out there for the ball to go further so it can hook. if you start with a 40 foot pattern and lets say the pattern plays like a 36 foot or something after a few games on it. There is carry down in a spot, then it can go back to being played like a 40 foot pattern if it is in the right spot. The carry down spread out on the burnt part putting a little oil on it.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by RobMautner »

Krava: The core is the only part of the bowling ball where the manufacturer gives you, the bowler, hard information to allow you to make an informed decision when buying a ball. They show you the shape, the symmetry, and tell you the low RG (the higher this measurement is, the more resistance is encountered before the ball rolls, and the longer it goes), and the Differential (the difference between the low RG and the high RG... the higher the Differential, the more potential there is for flare), and the Intermediate Differential on Asymmetrical balls (the higher the Intermediate Differential, the more asymmetrical the core is). Everything else about the bowling ball, essentially the cover material, you are only fed marketing rhetoric to try to convince you to buy the ball. By not learning about the core, you are doing yourself a grave injustice in terms of understanding bowling balls.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by EricHartwell »

RobMautner wrote:A few days ago I was watching a couple of seniors practicing. One of the bowlers is a current league bowler who averages about 220. The other is a former Tour Player from the 1970's. As I observed their ball reactions and listened to their conversation, it occurred to me that their bowling beliefs were formed around 1980, and never changed. Are you bowling in 2018, or in 1980? You are bowling in 1980 if you still believe that:

• The two lanes that make up a "pair" should play the same.
• The oil is responsible if they don't play the same.
• You can always play the 2nd arrow on a house shot.
• You only need to watch your own ball reaction to adjust.
• Adjustments are always 2 and 1.
• You can "make" a ball hook.
• One bowling ball hooks more than another.
• You can ignore the core, because surface is 75% of ball reaction.
• Pin up balls go longer.
• Carry down has a negative effect on reactive resin balls.

How many of these do you still believe to be true?
How about you have to "lift" or "hit it" at the bottom, or you have to "get your fingers in it" to get the ball to hook.
Or the best strike ball hits the 1,3,5,9 pins.

I am sure there are more misconceptions that are adhered to today.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by RobMautner »

So true! I tried to cull it down to the ones I hear most. To list them all would take a large volume.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by Pinbuster »

1980 was at the height of sanctioned bowling membership. There were probably 8 million sanctioned bowlers at that time compared to about 1.5 million today.

On the pair should be playing the same. That was generally untrue at that time and much truer today.
Almost all lane surfaces at that time were wood. Seldom did two lanes play exactly the same and lane machines were not nearly as precise as today.

You would learn pair characteristics. I knew lane 5 always hooked 2 boards more than lane 6, lane 15 had a dead spot at the 7 board at 45 feet, etc. There were pairs in a house that were close to playing the same and they were the pairs that generally produced the highest sets.

With today's synthetics and lane machines consistency on a pair and between pairs has never been higher.

Ball surface and composition makes up 75% of a balls reaction. I believe this is true. You can take a core and put a really strong shell on it then have the same core with a polished plastic shell and you will get totally different lane reactions.

Your own ball reaction is your primary adjustment tool but you need to watch others to get a jump on changes.

And a good fit can make a world of difference in how a ball rolls allowing a bowler to have a consistent and effective release.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by RobMautner »

In the days of wooden lanes, the differences between the lanes were a direct result of different hardnesses of the individual boards that result in different amounts of friction. Those differences were always the same. Today, lanes are made of thin plastic sheets, that are not flat like the old days. In addition, the supports under the lane are often affected by changes in temperature and humidity resulting in different characteristics from day to day. This is called topography and often affects ball reaction much more than the oil pattern does.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by Mongo »

Man, a lot to digest here.
RobMautner wrote:A few days ago I was watching a couple of seniors practicing. One of the bowlers is a current league bowler who averages about 220. The other is a former Tour Player from the 1970's. As I observed their ball reactions and listened to their conversation, it occurred to me that their bowling beliefs were formed around 1980, and never changed. Are you bowling in 2018, or in 1980? You are bowling in 1980 if you still believe that:

• The two lanes that make up a "pair" should play the same.

I grew up on wood, no lane ever played the same. Only the 160 average bowler ever thought this.

• The oil is responsible if they don't play the same.

Again, this is the viewpoint of a 160 bowler, not a good bowler in the 1980's

• You can always play the 2nd arrow on a house shot.

When i grew up, most people played the ditch because that's where the dry was

• You only need to watch your own ball reaction to adjust.

Until urethane, nobody really got into ball reaction much. If you left a flat corner you moved right a board (left for lefties). If you left a 4 pin, you moved left.

• Adjustments are always 2 and 1.

I really think you need to substitute "160 bowler" for "1980's". We weren't that simple minded

• You can "make" a ball hook.

Back then, you had to. Many power players today would be considered spinners in the 1980's. Go back and watch Wayne Webb circa 1980 with a White Dot. He is ripping that thing for all it's worth. That is called creating hook

• One bowling ball hooks more than another.

Duh. Of course they do.

• You can ignore the core, because surface is 75% of ball reaction.

This is not a 1980's thought process. You had pancake weight blocks and lightbulb cores for the most part. If you sanded a ball, you got 3-4 boards more hook, maybe

• Pin up balls go longer.

Nobody really even started playing with pin positions until the late 80's

• Carry down has a negative effect on reactive resin balls.

You can watch pretty much any match where one person is throwing urethane and the other is throwing resin and answer this question.

How many of these do you still believe to be true?
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by RobMautner »

Mongo:

I've bowled league in over a dozen houses in four different states over the past 35 years. My comments were based on what I've heard recently from high average house bowlers. Whether something was true in 1980, 1988, or 1995 with a Purple X-Caliber in your hand, the point is that many modern bowlers are holding on to outdated beliefs just because it's easier than learning something new. By the way, some of those "old time" bowlers who correctly held those beliefs in the '80's were former Touring Pros.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by MegaMav »

RobMautner wrote: the point is that many modern bowlers are holding on to outdated beliefs just because it's easier than learning something new.
Amen on that one Rob.
I didnt realize learning was so hard.
Its an indictment of our society and bowling.
Attention spans are measured in nano seconds and this is not a simple bat and ball game.
Its a "just buy a new ball" (and still stink) game, unfortunately. The art is gone.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by Mongo »

RobMautner wrote:Mongo:

I've bowled league in over a dozen houses in four different states over the past 35 years. My comments were based on what I've heard recently from high average house bowlers. Whether something was true in 1980, 1988, or 1995 with a Purple X-Caliber in your hand, the point is that many modern bowlers are holding on to outdated beliefs just because it's easier than learning something new. By the way, some of those "old time" bowlers who correctly held those beliefs in the '80's were former Touring Pros.
I'll agree with you there.

Heck, I know some fairly successful bowlers who still hold on to a lot of these beliefs.

I'll argue carrydown, though. As long as urethane is out there, it's a problem that resin can't fix. Doubt that? Watch the O'Neill/Tackett match from a couple of months ago. EJ destroyed that pair with urethane and O'Neill had hang for days.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by RobMautner »

I guess I must be getting more mellow in my old age. Having had to use nothing but plastic for the past year, I've had lots of opportunities to see the effects of carry down on a house shot. Using plastic, I not only create the streaks, but my ball also reacts more to carry down than reactive resin or urethane. With that being said, I've only seen significant carry down four or five times during that year. Each time I did see it, my average would go up 20 to 25 pins for the day because of the shim that I had to the left of my line. After seeing all of the bad adjustments that I've seen bowlers make based on their belief that carry down caused their problem, I still believe that in the great majority of cases, carry down is not an issue for modern house bowlers. With that having been said, I am much more mellow of late, so this is the last that I'll say on the subject, at least in this thread. Before I would have argued, now, not so much!
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

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Splinters from atop this wooden head ...

I think I started bowling in 1980. Co-workers cajoled me in to joining the lunch time league at the university. My wife made the mistake of buying me my first bag, ball, and shoes for Christmas. Though by no means a good athlete, I am obsessive. Not being good, did not quash my curiosity. Thus off on the quest for knowledge, just as I had for other sports.

If I had to stink, at least I'd know why and what I should be striving for. Intuitively, I realized that if I continued to do what I did, I'd remain at that level.

I think, the complete set of Dick Ritger books started the bowling wing of my library, followed by the classics by Tom Kouros. Watching bowling on Saturdays with an ear for tips and information. Then to whatever bowling periodical I could find. Listening to the wisdom of Jowdy, Borden, Hall, Taylor, other masters.
Later, the seminal font of knowledge Bob Summerville's Bowling This month which I came on board a year or two after inception.
BTM was just what I was looking for.

Later, to certify as a coach with USBC, went there to learn, but their program was not to teach people how to instruct, and the level of information imparted was surprisingly shallow at the time. There is a huge difference. ETBF has it right, USBC has gotten far better, technology and mission has improved.

The point here is that there was and is knowledge available and accessible.
I'm always miffed at the dearth of access provided at bowling centers and fitness centers,
two places where people could benefit. What better place to cultivate long time customers, develop symbiosis with instructors, pro shops, trainers etc ??
Success and improvement born from curiosity and education breed longevity and sustained business.
Certain myths endure. As long as people do not seek varied and diversified knowledge, myths and misconceptions will persist.
To some extent, people seek that Silver Bullet solution.
Instant success, just add water and stir ...

Maybe I'm just a Mother hen at heart ...
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by guruU2 »

MegaMav wrote:The art is gone.
Amen!

kajmk wrote: As long as people do not seek varied and diversified knowledge, myths and misconceptions will persist.
The human condition.

Those who get IT, get IT (er, 7%). Those who do not remain living lives of quiet (and sometimes not so quiet) lives of desperation.
kajmk wrote:just add water and stir ...
It is a good thing we have the 7% or else the human race would not have
kajmk wrote:Success and improvement born from curiosity and education breed longevity and sustained business.
The sad case is that
kajmk wrote:there was and is knowledge available and accessible


Yet the pedestrians always want
kajmk wrote:Instant success, just add water and stir ...
Thanks John for keeping up the good fight providing us with TRUTH!
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by krava »

I bowl with 3 other people and everything is plastic except mine. On the other team usually atleast half is plastic. I don't think I have ran into carry down yet. I am not even worried about it right now because since I figured out how to get the ball to hook correctly I will cut though anything they put out there.
Most of the carry down will be in the middle anyway.

Now for learning new stuff. I have almost figured out how to stay behind the ball when throwing it. I can feel when I turn my hand now and that took several different times practicing it.

As for trying to figure out how to get the ball closer to your ankle. I am still in almost a loss there. I had immag... not sure the rest of the nick tell me that I wasn't getting my ball close enough to my ankle even in a foul line drill and I can tell the difference. Without going into alot of detail, This stuff takes time. I spent several hours several times last week on it. I went 2 hours today, did 2-3 games foul line drill, 2 games 1 step drill and probably didn't any closer to doing it right then it was the other day.

Most people won't sit there and continue to go on an on. If it takes me 3 months several times a week practicing this then I will have to do it. Learning new stuff is hard and it is worth it. While dealing with the ankle issue, I learned how to do footwork correctly with 0 boards drift. (board 23 end board 23 hit 10). Even trying things can improve your game. I am seeing ball motion that I never saw before. I was out of my comfort zone standing 32 throwing across 13/14 out to 11 and back in. Shot 243 255 last 2 games I played today. Just having the hand behind the ball made the ball come back even if I hit 10. I had like the last 6 of the 243 game then had the first 4-5 of the 255 and then too fast got it out wide hit 6 then got 4-5 more and then messed up got 9 in 11th. I haven't missed a single pin or 8 count non split in 8-10 games.

most people quit early too. yesterday it was $8 all you can bowl (labor day), I bowled 2 hours and was drenched in sweat and was about dead and hard to walk. I gave my lane up so I could take a break. I only got like a 20 min break and was out there again. The proshop guy and his son was there and his son asked me if there was oil on my lane and I said yes. I let those 3 with me because I wanted to slow the pace down. So a long story short, the proshop guys son quit because his ball started to hook too much on him and he didn't want to deal with it. Then the proshop guy left for some reason (I think his scores were kind of low and the more oil depleted the lower his score got). They only bowled 3 games. I bowled two more games after them on the lanes shot 215 236 after that as I moved left. ( On the last ball, the ball return wouldn't give the ball back and it took 15 minutes to get it back. I went to throw the ball only got like 8 because i couldn't even bend down at all. I quit after that because that was bad. Then going to bed laying in the bed I was in pain from being sore all over.) People don't want to practice the hard stuff.

sorry about the long post, I am very excited right now. The ball motion I saw out of my ball today, I wouldn't trade it with anyone else that I have seen. tried to video but phone died on me way too early.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by kajmk »

krava, with regards to getting the ball under your head and shoulder and closer to your ankle , your posture at the line, i.e. angle and orientation of spine, relationship of head to knee to foot -

If I recall correctly, you are a big man. I believe Jim Merrell has given you advice on achieving all of that.

In addition to the advice, I recommend you study several elite bowler's who are large folks, men and women. If they get good position so can you.

Practicing that is not limited to the bowling center.
A mirror, an object that is close to the diameter of a bowling ball, e.g. a plastic gallon milk jug can be used.

Juha Maja of ETBF asserts that their first timing spot dictates how well our approach will be.
Elite athletes have innate skills most people do not, thus they can overcome "mistakes" so well that they succeed despite them.

Coach Mark Baker asserts that although most folks focus on the release, it is what we do beforehand that expedited or impairs that release.

Kim Terrell, Rod Ross, Chris Barnes, and do many experts emphasize starting at the stance,
Position, use of both hands etc.

If you have not listened and watched the ETBF video, I suggest you do.

I believe you are also a fairly young man, with some physical constraints (eyes, other ??).

My goal is to encourage you to change what is within your power to do so.
Use your imagination and creativity to come up with ways to make changes.
Being a big man, you no doubt are quite strong already, but flexibility and mobility and functional strength can always be improved (barring physical constraints).
One source of athletic training is the Athlean x YouTube videos. Search for the items you need to improve, that is make weaknesses strengths, achieve muscular balance.

Give it a go, remember, there are things you don't have to go to the lanes to work on ...

Take care.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by Dax »

One bowling ball hooks more than another-

Most true of the lot.

Snow tires and smooth tires are not the same.
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Re: Bowling in 1980?

Post by RobMautner »

Dax wrote:One bowling ball hooks more than another-

Most true of the lot.

Snow tires and smooth tires are not the same.
You're absolutely right! Snow tires find traction quickly. Smooth tires take longer to find traction. "Strong" balls hook early. "Weak" balls get further down the lane. It's not a matter of how much hook, it's simply a matter of when the hook happens.
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