Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
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Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
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Last edited by TonyPR on August 30th, 2018, 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
I line up and bowl by feel. Jedi stuff.
Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
math would say that is incorrect when lane patterns can be 36 feet or 44 feet for example
Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
Joe's article on BTM goes into more detail on this, including an interactive calculator.
https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowlin ... alignment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowlin ... alignment/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
Ok, I guess I am incorrect so I will just go ahead and delete the post, anyone who’s interested can ask gunso, he seems to know what he’s doing...gunso wrote:math would say that is incorrect when lane patterns can be 36 feet or 44 feet for example
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
MegaMavs method is based on the Chico Marx tidbit of wisdomMegaMav wrote:I line up and bowl by feel. Jedi stuff.
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When considering formulas, keep the Bell Curve in mind, as there are other factors besides oil.
Here is an article that may be of help.
https://www.bowl.com/Source/Source_Home ... justments/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
you are obviously not happy with my answer. prove me wrong. how can the formula work the same for a 35-40-45 foot pattern?TonyPR wrote:
Ok, I guess I am incorrect so I will just go ahead and delete the post, anyone who’s interested can ask gunso, he seems to know what he’s doing...
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
I am trying to remember what the original statement was, but if I remember correctly, the formula was independent of the pattern. One would have to know where they wanted to throw the ball and use the formula for that and not as a way to know where to throw it based on the pattern.gunso wrote:
you are obviously not happy with my answer. prove me wrong. how can the formula work the same for a 35-40-45 foot pattern?
It seems like a numbers way of implementing something similar to the 3 point targeting method.
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
There is no formula that will tell you where to play a pattern.
Forgiveness is based on where the pattern slope is and there is no guarantee of where that will be based on pattern length.
The end.
Forgiveness is based on where the pattern slope is and there is no guarantee of where that will be based on pattern length.
The end.
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
I'm going to beat Rob to the punch and say don't forget, topography can overrule everything.
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
Pattern slope adds the dimension of height or thickness to the equationMegaMav wrote:There is no formula that will tell you where to play a pattern.
Forgiveness is based on where the pattern slope is and there is no guarantee of where that will be based on pattern length.
The end.
Length alone would seem to only address length and width.
If looking to ford a river, depth would probably be a major concern.
I don't know the science behind the numerical systems, certainly the more varied the patterns, types of oil would be a factor.
The systems are guidelines, the proof is in the reaction you see.
I don't think any pro exclusively places all there faith in charts and formulas.
That would be a good topic for podcasts, speak with some professionals get the benefit of their experience.
Questions
How and where do you roll your warm up shots prior to competition?
Does it vary based on what you think you know about the land?
Would it vary if you were coming in cold, that is first time there, no knowledge of pattern?
Do you and your mates ever test the lanes as a unit, or as individuals?
Given the limitations of warm up tossed, working as a unit seems smarter.
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
There is no equation for bowling.kajmk wrote: Pattern slope adds the dimension of height or thickness to the equation
Length alone would seem to only address length and width.
Pattern length dictates length only, not width.
Width of the pattern comes from where the oil volume across the lane exceeds 300 microliters.
The ball will hook on less than that with most conditioners.
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
Ok lets see... 36’-31=5... 5-5=0... 0+5=5... 5+6=11... so one can’t stand 11 to roll 5 at the arrows straight to 5 at 36’???
44-31=13 pattern exit
20(arrows) 13(pattern exit)=7
7+20(arrows)=27
27+6(bowler’s magic number 5,6 or 7)=33
So stand 33 roll 20 at arrows out to 13 at 44’
Gunso you said it’s plain wrong (being destructive) but never suggested a “correct” way like others said (being constructive)... there’s no set in stone rules, these are just guidelines... as long as one doesn’t stand 25 to roll straight up 10... my guidelines will work for what 90% of bowlers bowl on, 38’ to 40’ house shots, they will also work on other shots but then the people who do play other patterns would also want to consider other variables. My method will also be useful for those who are accustomed to always standing on one spot and playing the same arrow to learn where more or less they can stand when venturing in to other parts of the lane...
Honestly I don’t care why the method is “mathematically incorrect” although you failed to explain why. I in fact care more about other methods that may work which you also failed to explain... so Gunso instead of being destructive, be constructive, explain a method that works.
44-31=13 pattern exit
20(arrows) 13(pattern exit)=7
7+20(arrows)=27
27+6(bowler’s magic number 5,6 or 7)=33
So stand 33 roll 20 at arrows out to 13 at 44’
Gunso you said it’s plain wrong (being destructive) but never suggested a “correct” way like others said (being constructive)... there’s no set in stone rules, these are just guidelines... as long as one doesn’t stand 25 to roll straight up 10... my guidelines will work for what 90% of bowlers bowl on, 38’ to 40’ house shots, they will also work on other shots but then the people who do play other patterns would also want to consider other variables. My method will also be useful for those who are accustomed to always standing on one spot and playing the same arrow to learn where more or less they can stand when venturing in to other parts of the lane...
Honestly I don’t care why the method is “mathematically incorrect” although you failed to explain why. I in fact care more about other methods that may work which you also failed to explain... so Gunso instead of being destructive, be constructive, explain a method that works.
Last edited by TonyPR on September 1st, 2018, 1:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
spmcgivern wrote:
I am trying to remember what the original statement was, but if I remember correctly, the formula was independent of the pattern. One would have to know where they wanted to throw the ball and use the formula for that and not as a way to know where to throw it based on the pattern.
It seems like a numbers way of implementing something similar to the 3 point targeting method.
Correct... so since you are interested here it goes:
Step one, find difference between board at arrows and pattern exit board. Step two the result of step 1 plus board at arrows. Step three add your personal “magic number” (5, 6 or 7 at max which is how far you release from inside of slide shoe). The result will give you an idea of where to stand to direct the launch angle from lay down to the arrow and to the exit point you decide to play, in other words the line you decide to play. Finally adjust for drift if necessary.
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
For the sake of clarificationMegaMav wrote:
There is no equation for bowling.
Pattern length dictates length only, not width.
Width of the pattern comes from where the oil volume across the lane exceeds 300 microliters.
The ball will hook on less than that with most conditioners.
My use of the word "equation" was not meant in a mathematical sense per se. Given the context of this discussion, I can see where it might have been taken that way.
The comment was just to opine that the oil exists on the land in three dimensions of varying volume, length, width, and height. It was actually in support of your mention of slope.
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
so your laydown point is 27. at the arrows are crossing 20. that is at an angle of 7 boards over 15 fet. you still have 29 feet to cover and only 7 boards left to cover before the pattern exit. How is it destructive pointing out that the math doesn't work for different launch angles at various distsnces?TonyPR wrote:Ok lets see... 36’-31=5... 5-5=0... 0+5=5... 5+6=11... so one can’t stand 11 to roll 5 at the arrows straight to 5 at 36’???
44-31=13 pattern exit
20(arrows) 13(pattern exit)=7
7+20(arrows)=27
27+6(bowler’s magic number 5,6 or 7)=33
So stand 33 roll 20 at arrows out to 13 at 44’
Gunso you said it’s plain wrong (being destructive) but never suggested a “correct” way like others said (being constructive)... there’s no set in stone rules, these are just guidelines... as long as one doesn’t stand 25 to roll straight up 10... my guidelines will work for what 90% of bowlers bowl on, 38’ to 40’ house shots, they will also work on other shots but then the people who do play other patterns would also want to consider other variables. My method will also be useful for those who are accustomed to always standing on one spot and playing the same arrow to learn where more or less they can stand when venturing in to other parts of the lane...
Honestly I don’t care why the method is “mathematically incorrect” although you failed to explain why. I in fact care more about other methods that may work which you also failed to explain... so Gunso instead of being destructive, be constructive, explain a method that works.
and of course the math will work if we are throwing it dead straight up the boards but that isn't how bowling is played today. It just doesn't work for different trajectory lines in this simple formula.a
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
This works for me and for many others I coach. What works for you? Showing us a way might actually be constructive. I share this because it has helped many people. What have you shared?
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
Givens:
The Line of Play is always a straight line.
Convert all lengths to inches.
Pattern length 44 foot (44 x 12 = 528 inches)
Visual Target 4th Arrow at 15 feet (15 x 12 = 180 inches)
Distance from Visual Target to the Exit Point (528 – 180 = 348 inches)
Exit Point (44 – 31) 13th board at 44 feet.
Using one inch as the width of each board (simplicities sake)
Trigonometry time:
1) Visual Target minus Exit Point (20 – 13 = 7)
2) The distance from the Fourth arrow to the Exit Point (348 inches)
3) 7 divided by 348 = .0201 (see attachment below)
4) Inverse tangent of .0201 equals an angle of 1.1523 degrees
5) Distance from the Exit point to the Foul line is 528 inches
6) The Tangent of 1.1523 degrees x 528 equals 10.62 inches (round up to 11)
7) The Exit point on 13th board plus 11 equals a laydown point at the Foul Line of 24.
8) The 24th board at the Foul Line plus 6 boards (the distance from centerline of the bowling ball to inside edge of the slide foot) = 30th board for slide foot position at the foul line.
Using a Visual target of the Fourth Arrow and sliding on the 30th board at the foul line, the bowler’s ball should exit the 44-foot pattern on the 13th board.
Remember the Line of Play is always a straight line.
The Math always works if applied properly!
But this is way too complicated for determining proper Lane Play.
After the holiday, I'll post in the Coaching Forum how my athlete's and I simplify determining the Line of Play based on Pattern Length.
The Line of Play is always a straight line.
Convert all lengths to inches.
Pattern length 44 foot (44 x 12 = 528 inches)
Visual Target 4th Arrow at 15 feet (15 x 12 = 180 inches)
Distance from Visual Target to the Exit Point (528 – 180 = 348 inches)
Exit Point (44 – 31) 13th board at 44 feet.
Using one inch as the width of each board (simplicities sake)
Trigonometry time:
1) Visual Target minus Exit Point (20 – 13 = 7)
2) The distance from the Fourth arrow to the Exit Point (348 inches)
3) 7 divided by 348 = .0201 (see attachment below)
4) Inverse tangent of .0201 equals an angle of 1.1523 degrees
5) Distance from the Exit point to the Foul line is 528 inches
6) The Tangent of 1.1523 degrees x 528 equals 10.62 inches (round up to 11)
7) The Exit point on 13th board plus 11 equals a laydown point at the Foul Line of 24.
8) The 24th board at the Foul Line plus 6 boards (the distance from centerline of the bowling ball to inside edge of the slide foot) = 30th board for slide foot position at the foul line.
Using a Visual target of the Fourth Arrow and sliding on the 30th board at the foul line, the bowler’s ball should exit the 44-foot pattern on the 13th board.
Remember the Line of Play is always a straight line.
The Math always works if applied properly!
But this is way too complicated for determining proper Lane Play.
After the holiday, I'll post in the Coaching Forum how my athlete's and I simplify determining the Line of Play based on Pattern Length.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
-JMerrell
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"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"
Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
whew....and I thought, figuring out the mathematical formula for trajectory while shooting a basketball on a windy day was complicated.......
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Re: Mathematic formula to figure out where to stand
I use Gunso’s logic myself. In Jim’s example ball released on foul line at 24, crosses arrows (15 feet down lane) at board 20, will be another fours boards at 30 feet (board 16) and board 12 at 45, and board 8 at the pins, were it a straight ball. Can easily round a board or two more or less for slightly longer or shorter pattern. Key is knowing where you release it, what board you want to hit at arrows and what board you want to exit on at what length down the lane. Then it is all pretty simple.
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