Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by 2y2 »

boomer wrote: The magic angle is around 8 degrees. So - at 8 degrees, Belmo can "miss" a little either way and still get a strike. This isn't magic - it's due to plain old physics. Ball deflection and pin deflection at that angle means more mixing up of the pins and more drive through the pins.
I don't believe this to be true, the effective entry angle is between 2.5 and 6 degrees, outside of this range you lose forgiveness. Extreme angles are not always a good thing for forgiveness, and ball deflection is more a matter of axis tilt and rotation than entry angle. A ball has to lose rotation but not all tilt in order to hit strong.
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by kajmk »

More on angle of entry ...

Here is material from the wiki
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... remmel.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A short video about some testing done by USBC
[youtube][/youtube]

See the reply and link from purduepaul
Pocket Entry - Ball weight vs speed vs angle
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1529&p=12078&hilit=Entry#p12078" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by Nord »

kajmk wrote:More on angle of entry ...

Here is material from the wiki
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... remmel.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A short video about some testing done by USBC
[youtube][/youtube]

See the reply and link from purduepaul
Pocket Entry - Ball weight vs speed vs angle
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=1529&p=12078&hilit=Entry#p12078" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The video seems confusing because they concluded entry angle was not a factor, all that mattered was hitting the pocket at the 17.5 board. If you could do that consistently, then your chances of striking, or getting 9, were the best regardless of what entry angle led to that 17.5 hit. So what are we supposed to think about that?
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by bowl1820 »

Nord wrote:
The video seems confusing because they concluded entry angle was not a factor, all that mattered was hitting the pocket at the 17.5 board. If you could do that consistently, then your chances of striking, or getting 9, were the best regardless of what entry angle led to that 17.5 hit. So what are we supposed to think about that?
To fully understand what they are talking about, you need to read the usbc pin carry study.

The video is just telling part of it, the part about where hitting the 17.5 board is where you get the most strikes and nines compared to other boards.

They said regardless of entry angle because they were not breaking the hits on that board down by which entry angle on that board was the best yet, It wasnt that they conluded entry angle wasnt a factor.

In the study once they determined that the 17.5 board had the highest percentage of strikes and nines, then they break that down by which entry angle hitting that board had the highest percentage.

Which was a six degree entry angle at the time, that gave the highest percentage.
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by TomaHawk »

The 17.5 board is, always has been, the ideal position for ball placement at the pins in relation to maximum pin carry. The degree or angle in which the ball gets to the 17.5 board can vary significantly. In order to knock down ten pins effectively, the kinetic energy that is transferred from the ball to the pins would be the largest contributing factor. Lesser angles of entry require a larger amount of energy transfer, while larger angles require lesser amounts of transferable energy. Mass, co-efficient of friction, co-efficient of restitution, and speed also factor into the equation.

For the most part, higher speed, higher rev players, Belmonte types, require less angle at the pocket. Guys like Duke with lower speed, lower rev rates prefer wider angles. That is a loose example because Belmonte and Duke are quality players. Both have the ability to play various parts of the lane by changing speed and release mechanisms to combat less than ideal lane conditions.
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by boomer »

As I mentioned in my reply, it's an "all things being equal" kind of analysis.

If you JUST look at angle of entry, at the 17.5 board; or IF you JUST look at the board of entry; or IF you just look at ballspeed at entry.

And, sorry, I went high with my angle number. I guess it should be between 4-6, but I've heard a lot of talk and read quite a few articles talking about 6-8.

The point remains - if you can get buried in that angle-range, you have more tolerance for mistake. That was the point.

Same thing with entry point. If you get right on 17.5 at 60', you have wiggle room with regard to angle and speed.
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by kajmk »

boomer wrote:As I mentioned in my reply, it's an "all things being equal" kind of analysis.

If you JUST look at angle of entry, at the 17.5 board; or IF you JUST look at the board of entry; or IF you just look at ballspeed at entry.

And, sorry, I went high with my angle number. I guess it should be between 4-6, but I've heard a lot of talk and read quite a few articles talking about 6-8.

The point remains - if you can get buried in that angle-range, you have more tolerance for mistake. That was the point.

Same thing with entry point. If you get right on 17.5 at 60', you have wiggle room with regard to angle and speed.
The operative word is optimum.
Years ago during the stepladder tv finals the commentator mentioned that Ameleto Monaceli had been intentionally using an extreme angle coupled with a rollout shot.
That was his PLAN of attack.
A ball entering the pocket needs to split the second pocket, the 5-9 for rhb, to have a better chance for optimum pin collisions. By optimum I mean a 10 in the pit shot, no messengers, no kickback or curtain help.
A skilled and observant bowler takes note of what type of pocket hits a land favors.
In the physical world of 3 dimensions plays by its own rules.
Keep in mind that the lane condition dictates what angles you will be able to play.
Sometimes it's a shallow angle and that will tend to keep scores lower.
Dick Weber wrote a book and in it he subdivided the pocket
See post #9 for his diagram

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10103&p=78499&hilit=Weber#p78499" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by boomer »

kajmk wrote:

The operative word is optimum.
Years ago during the stepladder tv finals the commentator mentioned that Ameleto Monaceli had been intentionally using an extreme angle coupled with a rollout shot.
That was his PLAN of attack.
A ball entering the pocket needs to split the second pocket, the 5-9 for rhb, to have a better chance for optimum pin collisions. By optimum I mean a 10 in the pit shot, no messengers, no kickback or curtain help.
A skilled and observant bowler takes note of what type of pocket hits a land favors.
In the physical world of 3 dimensions plays by its own rules.
Keep in mind that the lane condition dictates what angles you will be able to play.
Sometimes it's a shallow angle and that will tend to keep scores lower.
Dick Weber wrote a book and in it he subdivided the pocket
See post #9 for his diagram

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10103&p=78499&hilit=Weber#p78499" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Absolutely! Agreed to all of that.

I was ONLY giving input as to the question of why Belmo has a "larger pocket" - and was trying to simplify it a bit as well.
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by kajmk »

boomer wrote:
Absolutely! Agreed to all of that.

I was ONLY giving input as to the question of why Belmo has a "larger pocket" - and was trying to simplify it a bit as well.
Understood totally, not meant as a negative comment.
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by Nord »

But I remember hearing or reading that it is impossible to create 6 degrees of entry angle in real life.
They said something like you would need to be in the next lane and roll across that lane to the pocket on the lane left of that lane to get 6 degrees.

If that is so, then what is the real maximum entry angle that a bowler can achieve in real life?
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by flibblesh »

Nord wrote:But I remember hearing or reading that it is impossible to create 6 degrees of entry angle in real life.
They said something like you would need to be in the next lane and roll across that lane to the pocket on the lane left of that lane to get 6 degrees.

If that is so, then what is the real maximum entry angle that a bowler can achieve in real life?
That's if you're bowling a 100% straight ball, this is why we hook the ball, to increase entry angle.
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by kajmk »

flibblesh wrote:
That's if you're bowling a 100% straight ball, this is why we hook the ball, to increase entry angle.
Exactly! Don Johnson stated that you would need to stand XXXXto the side of the head pin.
Actually Don Johnson said what the graphic Bowl1820 clearly illustrates. My error!. Constructing the triangle would yield the answer :oops:
I have his videos and book.
Eric (MegaMav) added Don's videos to the wiki.
A lot of the basic physics of the game are explained and illustrated.
The physics has not changed, just technique.
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All this talk of angles reminds me of an article in one of the print versions of BTM, I believe it was called Slide ruler bowling ... or something like that.
There was another cogent article by BOB Summerville about Break Point bowling.
It had the excellent graphic of a view from the ceiling archer targets laid flat on a lane.
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Last edited by kajmk on September 16th, 2018, 1:28 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by bowl1820 »

Nord wrote:But I remember hearing or reading that it is impossible to create 6 degrees of entry angle in real life.
They said something like you would need to be in the next lane and roll across that lane to the pocket on the lane left of that lane to get 6 degrees.
As flibblish said That's only if you're rolling a true straight ball. We hook the ball to achieve greater entry angles than can be achieved with a straight ball.

Here's what you'd have to do to get 6° with a straight ball.
straight ball 6 degree entry angle.jpg
Here's some entry angles represented on the lane. A 5° entry angle line hits the gutter at about the 43' mark
USBC Pin Carry Study_entry angles.jpg
If that is so, then what is the real maximum entry angle that a bowler can achieve in real life?
The most entry angle a straight ball roller can get is about 1.5° of entry angle.

You should look at the pin carry study.
USBC Pin Carry Study.pdf
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by Nord »

bowl1820 wrote: The most entry angle a straight ball roller can get is about 1.5° of entry angle.
But what kind of entry angle is a bowler producing with an initially straight up the boards shot that moves to the pocket?
Say a bowler rolls directly up 7 board and then the ball hooks into the pocket for a high flush hit.
What was the entry angle on average for such a shot?
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by kajmk »

Nord wrote: But what kind of entry angle is a bowler producing with an initially straight up the boards shot that moves to the pocket?
Say a bowler rolls directly up 7 board and then the ball hooks into the pocket for a high flush hit.
What was the entry angle on average for such a shot?

I'm admittedly math challenged, so I will wait for insight from those who are not ad it's bound to be simpler than I think.
Given the variables it's not simply a matter of triangulation as the ball movement from right to left will almost always never be straight until it has lost axis rotation.
What distance range from the pocket can it leave the 7 board and hit the pocket (an it depends answer)?


I wanted to post Gurkov's article on the Kegel website for folks to read.

Entry Angle Assessment by Alexander Gurkov.

http://www.kegeltrainingcenter.com/ktc- ... assessment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by Nord »

kajmk wrote:

I'm admittedly math challenged, so I will wait for insight from those who are not ad it's bound to be simpler than I think.
Given the variables it's not simply a matter of triangulation as the ball movement from right to left will almost always never be straight.
What distance range from the pocket can it leave the 7 board and hit the pocket (an it depends answer)?

I wanted to post Gurkov's article on the Kegel website for folks to read.

Entry Angle Assessment by Alexander Gurkov.

http://www.kegeltrainingcenter.com/ktc- ... assessment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Based on the photo with the green laser, it does seem possible to roll a straight ball at the pocket with 5 degrees of entry angle.
You have to lay it down right at the corner of the lane, but it looks possible, but likely very, very hard to accomplish.
But this does hint that a ball rolling straight up the 5 board could get pretty far up the lane before it hooked to the pocket and get a pretty good entry angle.
5 Degrees of Entry Angle.png
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by kajmk »

Nord, that is not the case. The picture should, but does not note the distance down the lane.
A clue is that dark board on the lane. It is one of the on lane range finders, looks like the second pair. That would place it around 42 feet.

" the first set are at 15 board and start at 34' and end at 37', you have 3' space then the next set is at the 10 board at 40' to 43'".


You can see them in Ray's video and he cites the locations

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by bowl1820 »

Nord wrote: Say a bowler rolls directly up 7 board and then the ball hooks into the pocket for a high flush hit.
What was the entry angle on average for such a shot?
The entry angle would all depend on where the ball turned toward the pocket off the 7 board.

Example:
If a ball went straight down the 7 board and it suddenly changed direction at 40 feet and went straight to the pocket. It would have a entry angle of about 2.5°.

If a ball went straight down the 7 board and it suddenly changed direction at 50 feet and went straight to the pocket. It would have a entry angle of about 5°.
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by bowl1820 »

Nord wrote: Based on the photo with the green laser, it does seem possible to roll a straight ball at the pocket with 5 degrees of entry angle.

No you cant, That green laser light is not coming all the way back to the foul line , its dropping in the gutter at about 42' as kamjk pointed out

Yes you could get a ball on that green line but it has to have a hook to do it.
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Re: Very Odd Lane Effect and why did it happen?

Post by Nord »

bowl1820 wrote:

No you cant, That green laser light is not coming all the way back to the foul line , its dropping in the gutter at about 42' as kamjk pointed out

Yes you could get a ball on that green line but it has to have a hook to do it.
The photo shows that the laser is actually all the way back to the foul line.
The laser does not show any hook, the ball goes straight to the pocket.
So it seems a straight shot can achieve that higher entry angle of 5 degrees.

The Ray Wong video posted above shows that a shot rolled straight up 10 board on a typical 40 foot house shot has a margin of error of 3 boards.
It can miss by half a board in and out by 3 boards and achieve an entry angle of between 4 and 6 degrees.
So in my case, if I went back to one of my urethane balls and rolled it right up 10 and it went straight till the end of the oil pattern at the range finders and then hooked to the pocket, that would be about 4 degrees of entry angle.
A very good angle of attack on the pocket.
That is the old way I bowled that was considered not good on house shots.

Am I reading the chart wrong? I have attached a pic of it.

Also the Ray Wong video shows a spare zone at the arrows left of center arrow.
I never roll a ball over in that area for any any shot, let alone a spare.
So I am not sure I buy into what Ray Wong is saying overall.


Entry Angle up around Second Arrow.png
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