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 Post subject: help moving left
 Posted: Wed Aug 15, 2018 4:59 am Post Number: #1 Post
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I am trying to find out ALL of my errors of thinking on this.

Went bowling Wednesday did extremely well in practice on a lane that was only bowled on a little. Even shot 200+ using just a plastic ball.

Started practice and everything looked great. The lane changed and I had to move left slightly at the start. (4 people bowling 1 left handed. 1 low rev low speed bowler shooting 13 out to 10 and back in. 1 very low rev female shooting 8 to 10. Then I was around 350 or so revs hitting 10-11 out to 8 and back in.)

1st 2nd game didn't do to bad nothing to complain about and started having issues 2nd game. I was having trouble getting the ball to come back and hitting a bit light. I thought I was burning the area up and the ball was burning up. I did a 2 and 1 move and the ball skidded past the breakpoint and wouldn't come back. I told myself maybe I need more cover on the ball The ball I was using was a radical ridiculous. I then took out a hammer bad intentions hybrid and had a little more luck but still didn't hit the pocket. Then went even stronger to a hammer ripped and it skidded and took out the 3 etc. I then said the hell with it, moved way back right, went up 8 and hit the pocket left a 10 or something. (I used a Hustle with pin down there). I could have stayed there and did decent but I wanted to do the right thing and move back left and figure out what is going on. I even moved the breakpoint (when I say this I mean I am trying to hit the right most range finder directly on it instead of the 8 board there).


long story short ended up with 5 opens that game and the lowest I have shot in a year or two. This is after hitting 200+ the first 2 games.


Here is what I think my thinking is wrong:

#1 if your on a lane and you start out with a medium oil ball and the ball is pretty strong from the start, there is no reason on earth to ever upgrade to a much stronger ball because the oil volume is already low to start with. It will burn out way too fast.


#2 If your moving left, when you keep moving left you might have to slow down the ball speed. I think my ball speed was still 17/18 and trying to cover too many boards. How many of you slow your ball down the more left you play?


Someone that said they were doing pba regionals years ago etc told me that I am swinging my ball out to much instead of throwing the ball in a line. He says this keeps the energy of the ball having to cover so many boards at the start. I don't see myself doing that but I don't know. IS anyone else guilty of swinging the ball out instead of throwing it in a line? Also how do you prevent this?


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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Thu Aug 16, 2018 4:31 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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krava wrote:
#1 if your on a lane and you start out with a medium oil ball and the ball is pretty strong from the start, there is no reason on earth to ever upgrade to a much stronger ball because the oil volume is already low to start with. It will burn out way too fast.

Not necessarily true, you were playing around the second arrow and never tested the middle of the lanes. A 2 and 1 move is not getting you into a different zone on the lane. You played in the same zone as the rest of the bowlers on the lane for all three games.


#2 If your moving left, when you keep moving left you might have to slow down the ball speed. I think my ball speed was still 17/18 and trying to cover too many boards. How many of you slow your ball down the more left you play?

Also not necessarily true, if you move your feet left but not your target/breakpoint then yes you are attempting to cover more boards. This is why you move your feet, target and breakpoint when moving.


Someone that said they were doing pba regionals years ago etc told me that I am swinging my ball out to much instead of throwing the ball in a line. He says this keeps the energy of the ball having to cover so many boards at the start. I don't see myself doing that but I don't know. IS anyone else guilty of swinging the ball out instead of throwing it in a line? Also how do you prevent this?

This is what I was referring to by moving all three of the points when making moves on the lane.


Finally have you had your stats taken by your pso or yourself following the instructions on the wiki?

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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 8:06 am Post Number: #3 Post
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I went tonight because I got a little prize money for being in last place and my partner leaving with 5 weeks left and after i paid for him for 2 weeks. (he says he lost his job).

I bowled on lanes that were bowled on last night. they have a special 9-11 pm $5 all you can bowl min 2 people. I paid $10. I ended up bowling 13 games I was told. I ended up playing standing on 49 with my left foot throwing the ball over 4th arrow out to 12 and back in. Instead of moving my eyes right when I moved left to get more angle I pulled them back left. I was hitting 3rd arrow looking at 3 pin trying to get it to 12 Same with 4th arrow.

49 board is like 3 boards to the left of the thing that opens up and they get the ball out. So I had o stand infront of the ball return and walk smaller steps throwing it slower.

I moved left I moved right and then moved back left again and stayed left. It was so dry that I threw the plastic ball over 8 and it would hit high on the head pin. No matter how dry it got my spare shooting stayed the same. most people argue 13 games in 1 hour 45 min is too fast.

I went from standing 2 boards from the ball return to that 3 boards left of that opening (right side) and went from 170 game the 2nd to last game to 223 with no opens the last and final game.

I used the radical ridiculous the whole time. I did go back and play to the right a bit with the rotogrip hustle but then it started going bad.

The problem with playing left is that if you swing the ball to far right, it will skid past the breakpoint and take out the 3. I left alot of 3 pin bucket type pins. swing the ball out to 12 your good. swting it to 10 it won't come back, swing it to 14 and it is brooklyn. also the ball needs a bit of loft and needs to start rotating when it hits the lane. I haven't shot 13 games since I was 16 or so and that was in the 90s. I might not be able to walk tomorrow but did learn some things.

One of the most valuable things still is leaving the 8 10 or so. everytime I do it I do a 2 and 1 move and then strike. but the 8 10 has to be a pocket hit. it is alot harder when it dries up. When your playing normally, you throw the ball out to 10 at the range finder or maybe 8 or 6 or something it still could come back. If it is dry and you throw it out and it touches 10 it will die out and just go straight.

I still haven't found a use for a pearl ball. I tried the storm ?? not sure the name it is an orange ball and the solid is redish. That thing never turned on its side or had tilt to it. I did get out the brunswick BTU and can play in the dry when the hustle was dead.


the 13 games was bowled on 1 lane not two so that thing was worn down. I started at 28 I think hitting 10 or 11 and then moved all the way to 49 (28 is a slant to the 10. to throw down 10 I can stand at 21 or so and do that). I even tried the 5 board with the hustle and it broke too much around game 7 or 8.


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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 3:50 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Tidbits.

krava, this old post may have a few things of interest to you.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7340&p=58160&hilit=Angular#p58160

The thread Help Nord Score probably has a lot of information on adjustments, you may find some good advice there.

Larry Mathews aka Bowling Professor had a section on types of adjustments in his book
"The Pro Approach".

Bill Taylor's booklet, "Target lines" illustrates and discussed adjustments.

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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2018 5:31 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Hello Krava,

This article might help you.
http://bowlingknowledge.info/images/stories/september%202012%20august%20slowinski%20at-large.pdf

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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 4:54 am Post Number: #6 Post
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That was a very good article y2y. I went bowling Tuesday took video but the video is so bad I don't know if I want to post since it is fuzzy most of it and hard to see anything. Tuesday was to throw as many balls as possible and try to keep up with the transition. I learned a few things Tuesday.

I went back today to concentrate on a few things. My thumb is starting to get sore on the middle and they told me it is because I am coming out of the ball too early. I practiced on coming out later. I also practiced on trying to score as much as I can while drying the lane up again. I didn't have to move no where near as much as Tuesday. Tuesday I started at 28 ended up on 52 or so. Today started on 28 ended up 32 I believe. There had to be more volume of oil on the lane or something.

here is the problems I ran into
#1 the more I move left, the more I move back right on the last step. I don't know how to correct it. I can jump back 5 boards on the last step for some reason.

#2 I keep trying to "open the angle up" instead of coming back right a bit and throwing straighter like in the article above. I am doing the angles 1 and 3 and skipping 2. In order to do 2 though, your suppose to have a stronger ball. I keep forgetting to bring one, I do have a stronger ball but there is way too much surface on it to use it (still have the 500 gritt on radical guru supreme).


https://imgur.com/a/ohwN4er is the scores (averaged probably 240+ for first 7 games)

I started with a storm timeless (saving my radical ridiculous for league), and haven't used it in awhile because it likes to go too long. I slowed the speed down used it for 2-3 games. It started to go too long and have to light of a hit and then switched to a storm rocketship. I used the storm rocketship the rest of the time. I got lucky and managed a 299 game (ringing 10 pin). then the lane transitioned too much. Game after that one, I lost entry angle and also left a pocket 7 10 in the 10th. I was already standing 32 throwing 12 to 10 and back in. Then the breakpoint at 10 disappeared and if I touched 10 it would roll out and die. I tried moving all the way to 42 and try to hit 12 at the breakpoint and keept sliding it into 10 at the breakpoint and dieing on me. I remember the article above and started to play straighter. I could keep the ball somewhere close to the pocket but with no angle and no punch. I didn't have anything stronger to use. I had 9 balls or so. track spare plus, Brunswick BTU, storm match pearl, storm match, rotogrip hustle, c300 swerve, radical guru supreme with too much surface, fx etc along with the other 2. Those are mostly all for the right side of the lane and weak light oil balls. I didn't have a ripped or anything.


So now the question is when do you play the middle part of the lane with a stronger ball and very little hook and then when do you move left and do that big sweeping hook? That is what confuses me now. I believe you do the slight hook when you can't get the ball out to 12 and it wants to keep sliding to the right. I did my best to get it to 12 and I couldn't get it there, it kept sliding too far. So I think then is when you go to the middle and go more stronger core and more direct and open that up a bit and then move left with more of a sweeping hook?

now in terms of getting a ball for the transiton when I need to play like 14 to 12 or 12 to 10 and back in and straighter shot, would a bad intentions work? bad intentions hybrid? is a ripped too strong? or just get a phase II and use it strickly for when I need to go straighter playing the midlane? I think the bad intentions hybrid should work though.


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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:27 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Hello Krava, practice is easier focusing on one thing at a time. Pick if it’s going to be keeping your hand under the ball better, practice your slide footwork targets, practice at hitting certain targets with the ball, release, spares etc.. when you do multiple it’s hard to concentrate on what needs improvement.

So for part 2, read what your ball tells you. Once you “moved in” from 10 to 12 and it died, what was the issue? Not enough hand, breakpoint too far down lane, too much or not enough angle? If you released it good, I would move back right with the break point because it did not turn the corner. When you said you touched 10 and it died, your ball probably rolled out because of not enough angle at the front. I’d ask what is wrong with 5 through 8 at the break point? Too dry? That’s free hook to open up my angles. Unless the pattern is long or heavy oil, 12 at the break point is rare for your revs. Play where you have some room to get it back.

Your arsenal, you have 5 or the same ball it seems. Get a Katana if you want to create some angle.

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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:32 am Post Number: #8 Post
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found the issue, league met tonight and practiced. by 3rd game same result ball died at 10. Grabbed the hammer bad intentions hybrid and had good ball motion again. Even got it to 7-8 and came back. Just needed more surface and stronger core.


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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:53 am Post Number: #9 Post
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ran into hell tonight. Started on what I was told was a fresh oiled lane. I used a storm timeless. (when I usually use a timeless on league lanes, it usually goes too long and doesn't hook into the pocket unless I take like 2mph off it). First game the storm timeless started to have too much hook and too strong of an arc. Moved to a slower more stable arching rocketship the 2nd game. Used the rocket ship for the next 3-4 games. kept moving left and it died out and then used a hammer hybrid bad intentions for a few more games. Hybrid tied out in next 2-3 games and moved up to the strongest ball I have which is a hammer Ripped.

I have 5 videos 3 of them somehow turned themselves | way and those are the first 3 and non important. The next 2 I had a lot of trouble.

This was started when the strongest ball I had ripped wouldn't turn the corner any more and died, The more left I went the more right the ball went. After 1-2 shots, I jumped to a slower arching light oil ball and shot down 5 since there was oil on 5 and wasn't ever played there. Then 5 dried up and then went back between 3-4 arrow and had all kinds of issues.

https://youtu.be/3X0SyCQ2rvc

I moved back right since the ball kept going right had a little success. I guess if your moving left and the ball starts to stay right, you move back right with your feet until the ball shoots high or left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vLUryT ... e=youtu.be

The best shot was like almost 20min in. i shot around 4th arrow out to 15 and back in and strike. I think 15 is just too far right for a breakpoint. I was trying to get to 12. But at 12 the ball didn't do anything either. Also I don't think the ripped ball has many revs and not revving up. I never had any good hook on that ball at all no where in this.


so the purpose of this is this. Is it correct saying that when you move left and your ball starts going right, if you balled all the way up and still goes right, then move back right, maybe keep same breakpoint and keep moving back right until the ball is in the pocket. If the ball goes right and next shot goes left then you might be playing the wrong breakpoint and need to move.

just watched this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q37I_x2vV6s

so I guess 15 board isn't too far left for a breakpoint to come back. How far left is too far left for the ball to roll over by the range finders?


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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Wed Aug 29, 2018 5:42 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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krava wrote:
ran into hell tonight. Started on what I was told was a fresh oiled lane. I used a storm timeless. (when I usually use a timeless on league lanes, it usually goes too long and doesn't hook into the pocket unless I take like 2mph off it). First game the storm timeless started to have too much hook and too strong of an arc. Moved to a slower more stable arching rocketship the 2nd game. Used the rocket ship for the next 3-4 games. kept moving left and it died out and then used a hammer hybrid bad intentions for a few more games. Hybrid tied out in next 2-3 games and moved up to the strongest ball I have which is a hammer Ripped.

I have 5 videos 3 of them somehow turned themselves | way and those are the first 3 and non important. The next 2 I had a lot of trouble.

This was started when the strongest ball I had ripped wouldn't turn the corner any more and died, The more left I went the more right the ball went. After 1-2 shots, I jumped to a slower arching light oil ball and shot down 5 since there was oil on 5 and wasn't ever played there. Then 5 dried up and then went back between 3-4 arrow and had all kinds of issues.

https://youtu.be/3X0SyCQ2rvc

I moved back right since the ball kept going right had a little success. I guess if your moving left and the ball starts to stay right, you move back right with your feet until the ball shoots high or left.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vLUryT ... e=youtu.be

The best shot was like almost 20min in. i shot around 4th arrow out to 15 and back in and strike. I think 15 is just too far right for a breakpoint. I was trying to get to 12. But at 12 the ball didn't do anything either. Also I don't think the ripped ball has many revs and not revving up. I never had any good hook on that ball at all no where in this.


so the purpose of this is this. Is it correct saying that when you move left and your ball starts going right, if you balled all the way up and still goes right, then move back right, maybe keep same breakpoint and keep moving back right until the ball is in the pocket. If the ball goes right and next shot goes left then you might be playing the wrong breakpoint and need to move.

just watched this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q37I_x2vV6s

so I guess 15 board isn't too far left for a breakpoint to come back. How far left is too far left for the ball to roll over by the range finders?


I wont comment over this, because honestly, like most people, these post are way to long. But there are a couple of things you really need to work on, especially if you want to get inside and have the ball react. With how far the ball is from your ankle and your very weak release, unless there is a TON of friction, your not going to see the ball get back, and if it does, it will not hit.

I compared you to Dave Traber. A bigger guy that likes to fire it down and in.

Image

1) Ball from ankle is way to far. Best way to correct this is by dropping your shoulder more. You can see this with Dave Traber. Beautiful shoulder angle.

2) Weak wrist. Your hand is on the top quadrant of the ball with your wrist extremely broken back. With Dave, you can see that from his arm to his finger is one straight line. There is also a Youtube video talking about this with Kegel and Sean Rash with the index finger being pointed straight down.

If you can work on those 2 things, your release will be stronger, rev rate may climb and it will allow you to play inside more where you may need a higher rev rate and stronger axis rotation.

I would work on those to things, and stop throwing fits during practice. your practicing for a reason, and a strike does not mean you are throwing a good shot, especially on THS.


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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:12 am Post Number: #11 Post
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Good point. The video got the pic off of is when I took out putting any kind of "hand" into it. I didn't cock my wrist at the start and wanted to stay on the side of the ball and take some of the revs off. I thought I had my wrist straight at the release but I see I didn't. One thing I know I don't do correctly is that my elbow is not tucked in when I start it is more outward. tucking the elbow in should put the ball closer to my foot. I have to figure out how to get my shoulder further down. I will work on this more before doing other things. Thanks for advice. Will get back with video on Monday.

Monday here is $8 all you can bowl. I will video 1 shot, take the computer put the video on it, analyze shot, then try to fix and repeat if it takes the whole day.

now the question is what should be attempted to be fixed first? Footwork (not jumping 3-5 boards over right with last step), Dropping shoulder down or keeping wrist straight and not bent? If I had to choose I would go with the wrist, then shoulder then footwork


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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:32 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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krava wrote:
now the question is what should be attempted to be fixed first? Footwork (not jumping 3-5 boards over right with last step), Dropping shoulder down or keeping wrist straight and not bent? If I had to choose I would go with the wrist, then shoulder then footwork


My opinion would be Shoulder, Footwork, then wrist. I think you heard rev rate increase and want to fix that first but your launch angle will suffer if you don't get the ball closer to your ankle. Also you will be more accurate with the ball closer to you.

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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:22 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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trackbowler wrote:

My opinion would be Shoulder, Footwork, then wrist. I think you heard rev rate increase and want to fix that first but your launch angle will suffer if you don't get the ball closer to your ankle. Also you will be more accurate with the ball closer to you.


In support of what trackbowler said.
In Mark Baker's DVD, he makes the point that most bowler's want more rooms, more power and that optimizing things that trackbowler wrote, will often result in improving the release.
Power without sufficient accuracy is often wasted and counterproductive ...

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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 2:58 am Post Number: #14 Post
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This is what I did, I believe it takes all 3. When I first started practicing this, I made 100% sure my right foot went over my left foot. I didn't see my right foot go over my left foot in any of these videos. Getting my right foot over my left also helps me drop the shoulder on the right side. To drop the shoulder, I believe that fixes itself if I have my elbow pointed inward toward me because that makes me come closer to my body and not away from it, if it was outward. Since I didn't get my right foot over my left foot in any of these everything is off.

If right foot goes over left on 1st step, all footwork is correct no huge jump and also creates a big gap for me to just pull the elbow in.

If elbow is tucked in, I will be reaching more to the inside and thus dropping shoulder

The the last would be how to keep the wrist straight at release and not bent. But something has to be going on to have the track, start tracking lower down.

1st attempt:

edited video shows 3 shots (1st shot was a little upset something happend forgot what it was)
https://youtu.be/pZhWjkXyJ9U

unedited:
https://youtu.be/XQOZgoXDKu4

here is what I am noticing. I need to start off with the body tilted more to the right. I believe my elbow is going a bit outward instead of inward. i also see my wrist still bent at the exact release for some reason I think in shot 2 in the edited video it might not be. I try to keep my wrist cupped and behind it the whole way but I am also thinking about everything else in the meantime.

I threw 5 games before this video and I think I was throwing it better and closer to my ankle then. I threw it once and it felt like I just snapped the ball from down to up at the release and I think that is what it is suppose to feel iike. (sort of spinning a top) It was just a big huge snap and change of direction of the ball at release. I believe I had more tilt when I started and then got tired and forgot about the tilt at the start. with no tilt, i didn't have a good clean path for the ball to travel in so it went to the side then the back. i could feel the change in direction with the ball. on the first few games I didn't feel it much.

Also I started out standing 20 instead of 28 or 29 and throwing over 10. I felt really compressed (cramped) and my body felt like 10-15 boards over where my target was to the right. when I was trying to visualize where to throw the ball it was hard, I drew the line in my head but I had to do a lot to get to the point where I could actually throw the ball the ball at that line. (hopefully you can understand what that means) I felt really confident standing 22 and hitting 10. I am not sure how to angle the ball "/" like throw 12 to 8 or 12 to 10, I can throw straight up some boards for right now.

So sorry about the long speech. See any improvement? This is my first practice doing this. It felt better earlier like I said.


Also if you take the bowling ball and put it where the holes are facing you and look at the track. I usually track high maybe 2-3 inches from the holes (estimate 75" angle), throwing it like this I was getting a lot lower track several inches from where I usually track and I would estimate the angle to be somewhere between 45-60 degrees. I might also be turning my fingers instead of going up with them and out.


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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 3:17 am Post Number: #15 Post
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Krava, for playing outside of 10 on a THS what you are doing is fine. The problem is when you need to move in and swing it, you can’t spin the ball like you are. Your timing is late and you’re pulling the ball which is part of the reason for a weak wrist position. Start your swing earlier and concentrate on keeping your hand under it, let the swing flow and you don’t need to hit it at the bottom like you do. This is not “you have a weak hand”, you ARE putting spin on it, just not a good roll for playing in oil and swinging it.

P.S. Stop the stomping, it’s a bad look and I assume you do it in games. Remember others are trying to bowl at the same time and don’t need “that guy” testing their mental concentration.

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 Post subject: Re: help moving left
 Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 4:18 am Post Number: #16 Post
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Stomping only happens in open practice and not in league. Usually no emotion no matter what happens. No arm swaying, yelling etc. There were league bowlers practicing on the side of me so a stomp was not acceptable. I have to watch that. it just gets so frustrating at times. It feels like I almost had it and then lost it. When I practice it is me and the lane and nothing exist, no music nothing. Me and the lane.

I even said that in the video somewhere, my timing feels way off in that. To correct this, the pushway needs to be earlier.


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