PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

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PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

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Re: PBA Experience leagues get the axe...

Post by MegaMav »

They're not getting the axe, they're changing the provided certified patterns.
Please change the subject line, its misleading.

-Eric
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by kellytehuna »

No, they are getting the axe! "PBA Experience" will become "Team USA Experience." So, PBA Experience leagues no longer exist! That's not a good sign...
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by MegaMav »

OK, fair enough, I thought the subject line implied we'd be losing sport bowling altogether.
Carry on!

-Eric
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by tdub36tjt »

Well I think you can still have a PBA Experience league it just would not be USBC certified....The USBC will no longer give those patterns to the centers wishing to have a PBA Experience league. Those centers would have to go through the PBA itself. Team USA Experience leagues will now take over through the USBC.
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by MegaMav »

Just to comment on the subject.
I think a rotation of patterns over a few year period can be a good thing.
New challenges, different approaches to each pattern.

It can be a healthy thing, if the new patterns ALL dont cater to a specific bowler type.
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by kellytehuna »

Most of the WTBA shots exist in short and long form, don't they? That would be pretty cool to bowl the long pattern one week and the short the next. Or even on each pair. Could make for some interesting scores! LOL!
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by charlest »

I still don't know about all these.
The reason I worry is my local center can't even get a simple White pattern right. It should be a medium oil pattern and we're supposedly getting the 41 foot long one. (By the way, they're brand new AMF HPL synthetcis and the machine is about 2 years old.) Well, with my 275 or so rpms, if I have to use a Slingshot for the first game and then a plastic for games 2 and 3, something is wrong somewhere. If I can use a medium oil ball on lanes 23/24 but have to use a weaker and weaker ball as we go week to week, from lanes 23/24 down to lanes 3/4, something is either wrong with the oil machine or with the people who programmed it.

And if you dare to suggest that one lane is not the same as the next or one day's oiling is not the same as the previous, you get
- what do you know?
- do average 230 in every house?
- you're wrong because we never change the machine.
- are you an oil machine expert?
etc., etc.
no matter how politely you word the question.

If they can't get these simple things right, what happens when they have to program a sport pattern into the machine? Any sport pattern?

I hold little hope out that anything will be done right.
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by MegaMav »

This sounds like an issue with the lane maintenance crew at that particular house.
The condition will only score as well as the lane man allows, or puts down, ignorantly or not.

That sounds familiar, Mo, are you in my head?

-Eric


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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by Revkiller »

There is certainly no shortage of potential sport shots that the USBC can use and others will certainly be created but the ability to allow people to compete on the specific conditions that PBA pro's compete on is compelling for many who try this.
Regardless of the reason this is a very unfortunate development for bowling. Given the state of bowling in general and the PBA you would think both the PBA and the USBC would have better sense than to allow this to happen over money. Both organization should be working together to promote each other.
Our Sport, yes I said sport, will suffer if there is not a top tier professional league and this licensing issue just does not make sense. Not even economic sense in my opinion.
Just another blow to the industry it does not need.

SAD! :cry:
If 'pro' is the opposite of 'con' what is the opposite of 'progress'?
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by elgavachon »

I may have interpreted something wrong, but it looks to me like they are trying to call you a sand-bagger if you don't bowl on a walled up house shot. I think they have it backwards. I bowl on thursday nights on a fairly easy condition, but the league is divided into thirds and we get a different shot each third. We vote on the shot (but the lane man gives us 3 choices and he can really manipulate that). Right now I consider the shot to be too easy and I will vote on the harder shot for the next third. I don't think they should try to call you a sand-bagger just because it is not the house shot.
On Monday night in the same bowling center, there is a supposedly competetive league using the points system where 2 bowlers had to split the point ( they each got .5 of a point) because they both shot 300. The next game there was a 300 on the next pair. We are not talking a very big league here. Am I a sand-bagger for not traveling over an hour and a half to participate in this?
I went to a tournament last weekend where there were about 20 entrys on my sqsuad. (5 games) There was a sidepot with a 276, a 278, a 299 and a 300. I really don't feel like traveling to a tournament for a while.
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by charlest »

MegaMav wrote:This sounds like an issue with the lane maintenance crew at that particular house.
The condition will only score as well as the lane man allows, or puts down, ignorantly or not.

That sounds familiar, Mo, are you in my head?

-Eric


"In the country of the blind, the one-eyed man is king"
True, but this is an AMF house. How many AMF would be different from this one?
They seem to be hiring a ton of center managers who know nothing about bowling.

As far as the use of actual PBA patterns in house leagues, most bowlers, even the ones who want to try it, have a bad reaction to seeing their averages plummet to the same level as mixed league handicap bowlers that they normally look down upon. The fact that it is a PBA level oil pattern has no effect on their ego. Many drop out of the league altogether when they average 175 instead of their normal 225. Even in their own mind, they want to average the same as Walter Ray and Norm Duke and Pete Weber; they just never admit to themsleves that the pattern helps them.

Heck, ever see them bowl on a PBA pattern?
They still stand 35 and send it out to the 5 board OR THE 15 BOARD and expect a strike every time, just like it was a house pattern!!!!
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by MattInTheHat »

elgavachon wrote:I may have interpreted something wrong, but it looks to me like they are trying to call you a sand-bagger if you don't bowl on a walled up house shot. I think they have it backwards.
Elga, I had the same thought initially, but it makes sense in that if you bowl only in a league with sport patterns, where your average is going to be lower than it would be if you bowled in a league with a THS, then any time you enter a handicap tournament (or sub in a THS league) you will be getting more sticks over all those with THS averages, even though you are better bowler. That's where their concern is, and I agree from that point of view.

How about this for a solution...for all USBC tournaments (which should pretty much always be on something harder than a THS) all averages should be based on sport leagues. If you don't bowl in a sport league but only on a THS, then your THS average is re-rated to a sport league equivalent average.

I've always thought re-rating was tricky, I bowl well on some PBA patterns but not so well on others, and if you bowl a sport league with the same pattern every week, even though it is going to be more of a challenge you will become familiar with it and probably start having more good nights than bad nights, just like on a THS. So for one person a tournament on the Red pattern might be easy if that is all they bowl on in their league, while for another person it might be harder because their league switches patterns every week or just because that person's game doesn't match up to that pattern as well. And even though they both bowl on sport patterns, the person whose league switches the patterns every week is going to have a more "true" average compared to the person who is always on the same pattern. So how do you fairly re-rate them? Use different charts for those whose leagues only use one of those patterns (which would mean a chart for each sport pattern!), and another chart for leagues that switch up the patterns each week? Maybe MathisTruth could write an algorithm that puts a number on each pattern, so we can select which one's we bowl on and how often, and it can spit out a re-rate percentage! That just gets too complicated...

So I say all tournaments should be scratch!

Or base handicaps on a lower average...say 150 - 160.

Or have tournaments specifically for recreational bowlers (nobody over 175 average allowed), tournaments for anybody (handicap based on 150), and tournaments for anybody but geared towards high level bowlers (scratch!).

I know, I'm talking crazy now. It happens.
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by MegaMav »

Im not going to get too verbose here, but my thoughts on handicap and league/tournaments are as follows:

All top tier, city or regional leagues and ALL tournaments should be scratch.
(these types of leagues should be tiered accordingly, to be eligible for awards in USBC I think should should bowl scratch.)

Mid to upper tier mens leagues should be 100% of 190, you average over 190, you bowl scratch, if you're under 190, you're probably pretty close in this type of league, so you get a bump, but probably still not helping your team a whole lot, and if you are trying to sandbag, at this level, its probably pretty obvious.

Mid to lower tier mixed league should be allowed to do whatever they want.

These are the 3 types of ADULT leagues I see. (A generalization of participants)

Scratch league, they're good and they know it.
Mens Handicap, they're not good enough for top tier scratch and they know it.
Mixed League, they're not good, and they dont care who knows it.

Anyway, forget that not verbose thing, I agree with Matt, all tournaments should be scratch, and if its not, it shouldnt be USBC sanctioned.

-Eric
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by RevZiLLa »

The USBC will no longer license PBA patterns for whatever reason. I'm not sure if this is a PBA or a USBC decision. This means that leagues started this summer and after will not have the right to use the PBA patterns under the old USBA/PBA licensing agreement.The USBC will instead make about 15 Team USA patterns available for Team USA Experience leagues.

My problems with this are:
* The PBAX concept was FINALLY getting traction and now it will be gone.
* Most bowlers in my area that are willing to try a sport league will only do so in a short Summer format
* going from 5 patterns to 15 does not work well in a short season or even in a 33 week season....there just isn't enough time on each pattern to learn to succeed on it
* This creates a disconnect between the dream of being a great bowler and a PBA career...perhaps a silly dream for most, but a motivator, nonetheless.

I noticed on their website that the PBA offers licensing of its patterns to houses overseas for PBAX leagues. I figured I would be able to license the patterns myself for our league, so I inquired at the PBA. Thursday, the PBA's General Counsel contacted me and said that right now they are working on a way to license the PBAX patterns to centers in the USA. She said the question is whether the USBC would sanction such a league. My take on it was that PBA Animal patterns are Sport compliant, so we could sanction as a Sport league with the USBC. Her prediction is the same, but she wanted to be sure and said we would be in touch once it all gets ironed out.

The center I bowl in has agreed to help pay any licensing fee
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by Revkiller »

[
My problems with this are:
* The PBAX concept was FINALLY getting traction and now it will be gone.
* Most bowlers in my area that are willing to try a sport league will only do so in a short Summer format
* going from 5 patterns to 15 does not work well in a short season or even in a 33 week season....there just isn't enough time on each pattern to learn to succeed on it
* This creates a disconnect between the dream of being a great bowler and a PBA career...perhaps a silly dream for most, but a motivator, nonetheless
.


Well stated RevZ, my feelings exactly!
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by purduepaul »

Here are my two cents on this. While at USBC, for awhile USBC was contributing the patterns for the PBA, then the PBA would tweak them as they see fit. Sometime right before I left the PBA decided to outsource this to an "industry expert". That's why the newer patterns play as they did before 2005. With that being said, USBC developed twelve new patterns for the WTBA all named after Summer Olympic sites (Three of them are analyzed by Bryan O' Keefe in the new BTM). So USBC is going to use thee patterns now on for their sport bowling experience. Now with that being said, does it really matter?

True that most people who bowl in PBA Experience leagues actually watch the PBA. Sport Bowling is an option for if you have a group of bowlers together who want to be challenged. It's NOT the solution to everything. As I've stated numerous times, the answer lies in educating general bowlers on the differences between sport and house shots. The Red, White, Blue pattern series while a start is too simplified as a process still for most houses.

AS stated in Bill Vint's article, USBC youth was down 10% last year, how about we as a community build programs to promote youth bowling. How about centers run 3 10 week sessions of youth bowling instead of 32 weeks.
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by kajmk »

"All top tier, city or regional leagues and ALL tournaments should be scratch.
(these types of leagues should be tiered accordingly, to be eligible for awards in USBC I think should should bowl scratch.)"

Nice concept, sort of like the minor league baseball leagues were structured.
Good for a number of reasons.

"Anyway, forget that not verbose thing, I agree with Matt, all tournaments should be scratch, and if its not, it shouldnt be USBC sanctioned.

-Eric"

No fluff, all substance Eric. [IMO anyway]

From what I read in BTM there will be 12 patterns, the most recent edition deals with three of the patterns. More to come on that subject in subsequent editions.

Personally, I like the "World" connotation better.

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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by flacoman »

Having four patterns a year would be a good idea , but would never fly in the average league. Most guys want to stumble in and be sure to shoot their 215 with seven beers under their belts and whine to management when they actually have to make spares and shoot 180 ! Whenever the shot changes any teeny bit, the howl from these guys makes me sick.. As long as it's the same for everyone, shoe up and bowl! Man up and move !

<end rant>
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Re: PBA Experience leagues and USBC part ways...

Post by kidlost2000 »

Does any of this have to do with money? The PBA wanting money to use the term "PBA" associated with the shot being used.

Or is it two different companies struggling and each deciding to part ways?
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