Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

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Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by bowl1820 » June 17th, 2018, 12:52 pm

Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1: PIN to PAP Distance

First of a three part series detailing how to layout your bowling ball with Storm's Pin Buffer Layout System. You can find the article about the PIN to PAP here:

http://news.stormbowling.com/2017/05/03 ... -distance/

[youtube][/youtube]
Last edited by bowl1820 on September 23rd, 2018, 11:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1: PIN to PAP Di

Post by bowl1820 » September 23rd, 2018, 11:45 pm

Part 2 of 3: The effect of the PSA-to-PAP distance on ball motion in Storm's Pin Buffer Layout System. You can find the article about the PSA-to-PAP here.

You can find the article about the PSA-to-PAP here.
http://news.stormbowling.com/2017/06/11 ... -distance/


[youtube][/youtube]
Last edited by bowl1820 on September 24th, 2018, 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1: PIN to PAP Di

Post by bowl1820 » September 23rd, 2018, 11:46 pm

Part 3 of 3: The effect of the Pin Buffer distance on ball motion in Storm's Pin Buffer Layout System.


[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by kajmk » September 24th, 2018, 1:08 am

Storm1820, thanks for posting this educational material.
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by TheJesus » October 4th, 2018, 10:32 pm

Why does Storm use this system instead of Dual Angles? I don't see any benefit over it, plus it's more complicated. Just curious.

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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by 44boyd » October 4th, 2018, 10:44 pm

I would assume it’s their response to Mo and Phil’s videos and Facebook posts. Trying to replicate without being a knockoff.
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by TheJesus » October 4th, 2018, 10:52 pm

So either a marketing thing or an ego thing? It's ok to use Mo's idea, he is after all probably the most knowledgeable person in bowling tech about balls.

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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by bowl1820 » October 4th, 2018, 11:19 pm

44boyd wrote:I would assume it’s their response to Mo and Phil’s videos and Facebook posts. Trying to replicate without being a knockoff.
The Pin Buffer system is a response to Mo and Phil’s videos and Facebook posts??????

The Pin Buffer system is just a different system it's been around for years (it either predates dual angle or was at the same time as it I dont remember right off hand), it was long before Mo was at Radical and him and Phil posting videos it's just the system storm uses.

It's not that it's particularly any better or worse (Dual angle is easier to draw up on a ball) But For every dual angle layout there's a corresponding Pin Buffer layout.

And as s long as you understand which ever system your using, it should produce a comparable layout to the other system.
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by 44boyd » October 5th, 2018, 12:04 am

The system isn’t, but that type of marketing is.
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by guruU2 » October 5th, 2018, 2:05 am

The Pin Buffer System predates Dual Angle by years. Mo used this system for years. Both are valid and for some, it is more comfortable to use Dual Angle and for others Pin Buffer is more comfortable. To repeat, both systems are valid. Historically, "Dual Angle" broke away from the standard Pin Buffer system and was further developed and promoted by Mo. Historically, the Dual Angle system is rooted in Denny Togerson's degree layout system he used for years while teaching for Ebonite and while being a ball rep on the women's tour. These conceptual tools have little to do with ego and/or marketing.
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by 44boyd » October 5th, 2018, 2:29 am

You really don’t think companies are seeing the traffic the Radical videos/posts are receiving and not trying to create that same type of customer relationship?
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by snick » October 5th, 2018, 7:04 am

Interview with Mo on the history of layout systems.
http://above180.com/2012/07/ball-drilli ... beginning/
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by TomaHawk » October 5th, 2018, 1:33 pm

44boyd wrote:You really don’t think companies are seeing the traffic the Radical videos/posts are receiving and not trying to create that same type of customer relationship?
...of course it is Storm's answer to dual angle layouts.

The real concern, is one more effective than the other in terms of getting the proper layout for a customer who is interested in purchasing a particular ball? Both systems allow the pro shop owner to customize layouts on an individual basis. The dual angle system is less tedious in terms of replicating the drill pattern of a previously drilled ball.

A note from the pro shop side. It's interesting when a customer comes into the pro shop requesting a symmetric ball be drilled with the exact layout as an asymmetric or vise versa. Trying to explain the difference between the two core concepts can be time consuming and also confusing to the customer. Sometimes, the customer is vehement about what he or she wants. That puts pro shop in the uncomfortable position of giving the customer exactly what they want.

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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by 44boyd » October 5th, 2018, 3:19 pm

I’m just glad companies are expanding the marketing of their equipment/services beyond the guy with 500 revs saying this ball is continuous and let’s me move in on the lane etc..

It’s like with CTD pads, I laugh at the guy always saying CEO for everything but they are at least “showing” how to use their products for whatever reaction you want.
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by JJakobsen » October 5th, 2018, 7:24 pm

I have a modified Pin Buffer excel sheet, where I just added the math for dual angle.. Bored at work, stuff like that gets done lol.

They accomplish the same thing in a different way, I find dual angle easier to understand as a non-driller, easier to mark up on the ball to double check layouts too.
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by TheJesus » October 7th, 2018, 5:22 pm

I know that the pin buffer predates Dual Angles . That's besides the point. The point is, someone came along (Mo) and offered this newer method, it is easier, it produces everything the old method did, , and it avoids mistakes, so.......why is Storm or some people still trying to cling to the old method? If that is not an ego or marketing (or both) thing, then i would like to hear what is the reason... If Dual Angles was some hard method i would at least understand the lone pro shop guy who is used to the old one. But i would not understand a company staying with it, if not to try to be "different" in a weird way..



PS : i don't know who Denny Togerson is but, in the radio show Mo states that Dual Angles is his own thing and owns the rights to it.

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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by bowl1820 » October 7th, 2018, 10:19 pm

TheJesus wrote:PS : i don't know who Denny Togerson is but, in the radio show Mo states that Dual Angles is his own thing and owns the rights to it.

Denny Torgerson is a 4 time pba reg. and senior tour champion , wrote for bowling this month "torgeys tips"

He also created the "TORGERSON DEGREE LAYOUT SYSTEM"
which you can see a sample here

Also theres a article in the Aug. 2006 issue of bowling this month called "Ball layouts for tougher competitive lane conditions" which tells a lot about it. (There's even a book about it)
The Degree Layout System _1_cr.jpg
As you can see this is what later on in the Dual Angle system became called the Drill Angle, All it lacked was a modern way to position the pin in relation to the VAL. Such as the VAL angle or pin buffer in the later systems. (They still used the Pin Up/Pin Down/Pin Over method then)
degree_layout_system_all.jpg
guruU2 wrote:Actually "core angles" preceded, historically, dual angles. This system, if I remember correctly, was developed by Denny Torgerson YEARS ago. You are correct, EBI did use this system for a long period of time as Denny did a lot of education work for them. He actually taught the system at the first two IBPSIA Advanced Pro Shop classes. He had a great newsletter for years but because of the demands of an acquired bowling center he has bracket his education activity for a few years. He does plan to return to the education scene asap. Dual angle has its historical roots in the work of Denny and Lew Marquez (current IBPSIA President and Turbo education director). Mo combined, refined the concepts and developed the system as presented on this site. The great advantage of Dual Angle is its ease AND increased probability of the accurate communication of information and data.
Mo Pinel wrote: Accurately stated! Please bear in mind that the HOT Spot drilling system, developed for Faball in 1997 has historical significance, as does Power Rated Drilling Techniques, first mentioned in an Ithaca Journal article in 1977. This stuff goes way back.
TheJesus wrote:Mo states that Dual Angles is his own thing and owns the rights to it.
And that right there is most likely why Storm doesn't use Dual Angle in their literature.
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by guruU2 » October 8th, 2018, 1:09 am

Well stated bowl 1820!
TheJesus wrote:But i would not understand a company staying with it, if not to try to be "different" in a weird way..

TheJesus- you might contact either Hank Boomershine and/or Steve Kloempken at Storm. I believe they will give you a rational, valid and credible response to your inquiry concerning this issue.
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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by TheJesus » October 8th, 2018, 5:39 pm

Thanks for the info bowl1820 !

So you say Storm doesn't use it because Mo wont allow it ? Meaning he allows every other company except Storm?

@guruU2 : what is your explanation? same as bowl1820s ? If yes see above.

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Re: Storm | Pin Buffer Layout System - Part 1 & 2 & 3

Post by guruU2 » October 8th, 2018, 9:31 pm

TheJesus wrote: @guruU2 : what is your explanation? same as bowl1820s ? If yes see above.
Next time I see Hank or Steve I will ask them. I really do not have a definitive answer on the "why". Something I have never been concern with as I have experienced at least 7 different ways on how to lay out equipment -all based on "science". I believe all this is based on soft science not hard science as we will probably have a "new" way soon. I believe most scientific "facts" are shown, in the long run, to be incomplete in the explanation of the given phenomenon and are always open to further investigation and/or further explanation . The more we "know" the more we realize that out knowledge is
incomplete and this applies the the physics of bowling ball action/reaction. Again
guruU2 wrote:you might contact either Hank Boomershine and/or Steve Kloempken at Storm. I believe they will give you a rational, valid and credible response to your inquiry concerning this issue.
-Gary Parsons
If one does not know one's product, one can not manage nor promote the product one does not know.

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