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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:25 pm Post Number: #641 Post
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Read my post again, I said if he doesn’t change anything he needs 10 balls. Normal people would try to adapt, you are selling him a whole line to be able to stay in one spot. That is crazy to me. I’m normally against wrist devices but I’d have him try one to give him a chance to adapt instead of blaming the ball. But I’m a nobody, so don’t really matter what my opinion is.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:26 pm Post Number: #642 Post
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Nord wrote:
What does this mean as far as equipment type and lane play strategy then?

One of everything apparently

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 11:56 pm Post Number: #643 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
If you don't move, especially with zero tilt, you're dead in the modern game of high oil absorption.
Not moving on the lane got him a 175 average. We want more, pretty sure he does too.

I do.
The main issue that seems to be a blocker for me, is no ball reaction.
I stand right and try rolling up 6, or 7 or 8 and what will happen is the ball doesn't hook, or hooks weakly.
A slight miss right will be a washout and a shot on line just doesn't want to roll up or carry.
This is what happened in the first game at Parkway with the Jackpot, it just wasn't moving.
When I went to my strong urethane ball I could move left into the oil and just roll it at the pocket and it read the lane front to back with a subtle arc into the pocket.
That shot was reliable and repeatable.
I was happy with that shot because I could see the ball was actually reading the lane.

When I get into trouble and all goes to hell is when I have no read, no grip.
More times than not, too much oil, carry down, or other fishy conditions, cause my balls to not read.
That is why I feel I need at least one ball in my arsenal that will roll no matter what.
I need old faithful when everything else is not working.

I have found, with the reactive balls that I have tried to use, that they are very condition specific.
They can work super well, or very poorly.
Feast or famine.
I don't like that range of performance.
I don't like those ups and downs.
I mean these are house shots, they are supposed to be easy to play on right?
But, as soon as I get reactive in my hand on these shots, I have no idea what will happen.
It might be a 600 series, or it could be a 400 series.
These house shots are very hard and unpredictable for me.
Do I really have to be a top lane smith to bowl with a reactive ball on a simple house shot?
Now maybe it is the way I roll the ball that makes reactive so touchy for me on house shots and makes it very easy for other types of players.

So, I think you can understand the appeal to me of strong urethane, a sure roll and predictability.
Do you understand my quandary?

My partner last night bowled a 157, 259 and 183 with the same ball, on the same lanes.
That's a pretty wild span for a high average bowler with a simple stroker down an in game.
On the same lanes I was fishing all of game 1 with the Jackpot for a reaction with no luck.
As soon as I went to strong urethane I could just roll at the pocket and the ball would do the same thing every time.
It was only my accuracy and consistency that would limit me.

Does any of this make any sense to anyone?

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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:24 am Post Number: #644 Post
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Yes, you can’t/won’t adjust so you want a weak ball that masks your mistakes.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:11 am Post Number: #645 Post
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I was reading an old review of The Crow urethane ball and found this section of a review that almost perfectly tells the story of what I see on the lanes with reactive and why I have had my best success to this point with strong urethane:

Speaking of the Crow:
"Another place I can see this ball working is for those who have a high axis rotation but low tilt.
Many times these players are stuck in "over/under" hell.
The ball rolls too soon in the dry, but won't recover enough if sent too much away from the pocket.
This ball won't force them too deep, and let them use their heavier roll without overreacting in the dry.
Lastly, I see this as a great ball for those with slower ball speeds, or who are rev dominant.
Many times these players struggle with reactives.
Strong reactives grab too soon and die for slow speeds, or are uncontrollable for the rev dominant.
Weak reactives are an option, but either won't hit because of a weak core, or completely skate and fizzle in the oil because of a weak (and usually polished) shell.
This ball would allow them to have the control to find the pocket and the hit to carry."

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Axis Rotation: 90
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PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 110
Ball speed: 10 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:36 am Post Number: #646 Post
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Nord wrote:
Do I really have to be a top lane smith to bowl with a reactive ball on a simple house shot?
Now maybe it is the way I roll the ball that makes reactive so touchy for me on house shots and makes it very easy for other types of players.

So, I think you can understand the appeal to me of strong urethane, a sure roll and predictability.
Do you understand my quandary?


Your quandary is this.
You have low tilt, so any interaction with the lane surface your ball has, it *wants* to stop hooking too soon.
You have a low rev rate, combined with that low tilt, the ball will just flip forward before achieving an acceptable entry angle of at least 4*.
I think you should have grabbed the Gladiator and played tighter to the pocket, say around 12-13.
Urethane masks your problem because its coverstock texture grabs the lane so hard, when you are lined up on 10, the oil line, and pitch out, it grabs the dry immediately and rolls forward on a poor entry angle to the pocket and gets you close, usually a flat 10. When you miss in the ball skates enough and doesnt grab hard enough to go brooklyn and you're close or 3-6-10.
The deal is, most players will move in because they have a rev rate above 250 and get the ball to recover. You have a tendency to knuckle the ball down the lane because your hand isnt in the ball all the way.
You're handcuffed playing dead straight because you have a hard time getting the ball to recover.

You bring 3 balls a night I take it?

Tight house (Parkway): Gladiator, Jackpot, Urethane
Medium house (Kearny): Gladiator, Jackpot, Urethane
Dry house (Surf): Jackpot, Rack Attack, Urethane

I beg you, bring a 4000 pad and a 2000 pad to league. Make the adjustments in surface during practice. Stop throwing just balls at the problem. You can turn 3 balls into 6 with 2 different pads.
Matching up is important, getting the ball to slow down the right way, start making surface adjustments.
You've illustrated it in your posts, so you're seeing it, start adjusting to it with a pad.
Worry about repolishing after league is over, do it by hand with 3M Rubbing Compound in the black and red bottle, you can find it on Amazon for a good price. Spanish language bottle of it is pretty cheap. Wax on, wax off, grasshopper.

3M Rubbing Compound:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 1:54 am Post Number: #647 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
I beg you, bring a 4000 pad and a 2000 pad to league. Make the adjustments in surface during practice.

First off, big thanks for explaining my quandry in clear terms for me and for the house/ball arsenal lineups.

As to the pads?
Honestly I would not know what to do with the pads.
Let's take the Jackpot and last night as an example.
Say I had the 2000 and 4000 pad.
The Jackpot was laboring to have any strong move to the pocket.
It is currently at a fresh 4000 grit polished.
What should I have done with the pads?
What am I trying to get this reactive ball to do?
Where am I trying to get it to do it on the lane?

If you told me to take pads for my urethane balls, I would instantly know what to do with them.
If my ball was not hooking soon enough, then I would take the grit down.
If they were hooking too early, I would take the grit up.
Simple.

But with reactive?
Not sure, since their ball reaction is so different than urethane.
Help me to understand what you want me to do with the pads?

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 110
Ball speed: 10 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:01 am Post Number: #648 Post
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Same concept.
Add teeth to get the ball to grab.
If its 4000 + Polish, use a fresh 4000 by hand.
If it still doesnt pick up early enough, go to 2000.
If that doesnt work, ball up, repeat.

If it were *me*, I'd bring the Rack Attack, Jackpot and Gladiator and go thru the process.
But you gotta have that urethane... you'll get over it, I promise. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:05 am Post Number: #649 Post
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Quit making reactive sound like a foreign object, it’s still a bowling ball. Just a higher performance than what you use. If the ball is laboring 4000 w polish, take it to 4000. If it still labors take it to 2000. The ball still needs to check up to get to the pocket. Knocking polish off smooths out the move so it’s not as jumpy.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:45 am Post Number: #650 Post
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Ok, let's ask this question, setting cores aside, do weaker and stronger coverstocks exist on the market today? What particular aspect of resin coverstocks makes them more or less aggressive?

What I'm suggesting, Nord does not need an aggressive cover. So, why mess around with a weak resin and still experience the same inconsistency that a resin cover exhibits. Everyone is saying, smooth out the roll by taking the cover down. Doesn't it makes sense to use a weaker ball, urethane, and use an aggressive sanding procedure to bring the ball up?


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:53 am Post Number: #651 Post
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You still want the hit of resin, trying to get him some pin carry.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:19 am Post Number: #652 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
Doesn't it makes sense to use a weaker ball, urethane, and use an aggressive sanding procedure to bring the ball up?


No, because he already reads the front of the lane with his release.
We want the ball down the lane before it generates angle, not up front.
His all time high series (which still hasnt been changed in his signature) was no coincidence.
He had no issue clearing the front and the backends were clean.

Urethane if he wants to grind it out on a house shot (who does that for enjoyment?).
Resin if he wants to score. He just needs to find a place on the lane where he can clear the heads and get a clean look on the backend.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:19 am Post Number: #653 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Same concept.
Add teeth to get the ball to grab.
If its 4000 + Polish, use a fresh 4000 by hand.
If it still doesnt pick up early enough, go to 2000.
If that doesnt work, ball up, repeat.

If it were *me*, I'd bring the Rack Attack, Jackpot and Gladiator and go thru the process.
But you gotta have that urethane... you'll get over it, I promise. :)

Ok, so same thing then.
Assuming I did not have the Gladiator, and only had the Jackpot and Rack, there is no reactive ball up option if my strongest ball, the Jackpot, does not move at 2000 grit.
So if the Jackpot doesn't move at 2000 grit, then the ball up option would be the Purple at 500 grit cross sand.
The Purple, at that grit, as I found out last night at Parkway, just rolls.
And because of its super high RG and super low Diff, it just rolls nice and straight with just a little move in the back.
Perfect for going right at the pins with control.
So for now, I want the Purple Insurance Plan until I get a better understanding of these tricky resin ball motions.
BTW, I took the Rack down to 1000 grit because it was doing nothing at any of the three houses.
It was just sliding.

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Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 110
Ball speed: 10 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:22 am Post Number: #654 Post
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Nord wrote:
until I get a better understanding of these tricky resin ball motions.


Nothing tricky about it, you just need to adjust your mindset to seeing hook on the backend of the lane instead of the front. You need to adjust surfaces during practice to match yourself up right.
Bring fine surfaces then rough them up as needed, easiest way to do it.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:25 am Post Number: #655 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
His all time high series (which still hasnt been changed in his signature) was no coincidence.
He had no issue clearing the front and the backends were clean...He just needs to find a place on the lane where he can clear the heads and get a clean look on the backend.

And that is a totally accurate description of how it went at Kearny with the Jackpot when I bowled the 667.
I rolled right up second arrow, the ball skidded perfectly straight to the end of the pattern, and then it went hard into the pocket just like magic.
It was easy and fun.
But I haven't seen that look with the Jackpot since that day... :(
Thanks for reminding me to change my signature, I forgot!

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Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 110
Ball speed: 10 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 3:32 am Post Number: #656 Post
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Nord wrote:
And that is a totally accurate description of how it went at Kearny with the Jackpot when I bowled the 667.
I rolled right up second arrow, the ball skidded perfectly straight to the end of the pattern, and then it went hard into the pocket just like magic.


Its not magic. You matched up and I bet hardly anyone was in your area of the lane at 40ft.
This is why I say the track area is death in the modern game, its a convergence zone, not a good place to be with a straight game. The middle of the lane gets pushed to the backend and a cone of oil forms from 8 to about 12. You need to find a way around that to find clean backend, its either playing in and tight to the pocket trying to go high flush in the pocket with the wiggle to the right (hard), or go around it with your break point to the right with hold to your left (easier).

This is why I tried to get you to extend your release, get the ball down the lane with that low tilt.
Problem is, you knuckle it, so playing left to right, the return trip either doesnt exist, or the angle is flat.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:21 am Post Number: #657 Post
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To a large degree, it really depends on who's bowling on the lanes. Also, what equipment they are using.

I disagree with straight not being able to play the track. There are quite a few straighter players around here that would disagree also. They stay in the area because they have become extremely proficient at "knuckling" the ball.

Btw, there is a significant difference in how a ball responds when comparing RS/RA values versus a strategic sanding procedure. And, plastic hits harder than resin if someone is trying to make that argument. The bowler just needs to be more accurate.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:29 am Post Number: #658 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
Btw, there is a significant difference in how a ball responds when comparing RS/RA values versus a strategic sanding procedure. And, plastic hits harder than resin if someone is trying to make that argument. The bowler just needs to be more accurate.


Show me proof of both of these points.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:29 am Post Number: #659 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Its not magic. You matched up and I bet hardly anyone was in your area of the lane at 40ft.
This is why I say the track area is death in the modern game, its a convergence zone, not a good place to be with a straight game. The middle of the lane gets pushed to the backend and a cone of oil forms from 8 to about 12. You need to find a way around that to find clean backend, its either playing in and tight to the pocket trying to go high flush in the pocket with the wiggle to the right (hard), or go around it with your break point to the right with hold to your left (easier).

This is why I tried to get you to extend your release, get the ball down the lane with that low tilt.
Problem is, you knuckle it, so playing left to right, the return trip either doesn't exist, or the angle is flat.

I just finished sitting in a warm bath, nursing a glass of Laphroaig 10 year cask strength.
I had my eyes closed and I tried to recall, carefully, all the reactions I have gotten with the Jackpot since the time I have used it and where those reactions were.

Here is what I have seen so far.

Up second arrow:
1. Jackpot slides straight up, exits the pattern and goes left hard crushing the pocket. High series.
2. Jackpot slides straight up, exits the pattern and does zero. Hits the 6 pin. Washout.

Right of second arrow:
1. Jackpot loses axis rotation almost instantly and floats across the lane with no hit.
2. Jackpot retains axis rotation, but starts to hook too late and hits weakly.
3. Jackpot retains axis rotation, gets into a nice roll and hits high flush for a strike. Rare. Only up 6 board has this ever happened. But when that condition is there, a miss right will not come back and a miss left will go high.

My feeling is the Jackpot is maybe too strong a ball to play in the friction right of second arrow.
I have had no luck at all being over there.
I think it is too touchy over there.
It either hooks out, does not hook at all, hooks weakly, or sometimes is just right all in the same game!
The margin for error over there, for a good reaction, is very, very small.
Hunting for a reaction is very frustrating, especially when the slightest mistake is punished.

With urethane it is simple, get the ball to hook off your hand, set, and roll to the pocket.
If it is not hooking early enough, move into the friction until it does.
If it starts to hook too much, move left into less friction.
Keep Backend to a minimum.
Simple.

Reactive, as you mentioned is the opposite, it is all about backend.
Get the ball not to hook, to get clean up the lane to the break point, and then hook hard.
Since skid in the front of the lane is critical for reactive, and I have zero tilt with low ball speed, isn't oil my friend?
Shouldn't I be left of second arrow all the time?
Going anywhere from 14 to 12, 11 or 10 as my breakpoint, so the ball retains the most rotation for the backend move?
It just seems right of second arrow is disaster land...

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Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 110
Ball speed: 10 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 4:41 am Post Number: #660 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Show me proof of both of these points.


Resin loses energy at faster rate

A strategically altered coverstock is going to respond in a very specific manner as compared to random RS/RA values.

Those are the two reasons I recommend a harder coverstock and a specific sanding pattern for Nord.


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