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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:50 am Post Number: #501 Post
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Nord wrote:
But is this person a Full Roller?
This looks like a modern Semi-Roller release.



Doesn't matter if it's a full roller or not. Getting your hand to get some movement at release will increase your rev rate. I know full rollers with 400+ rev's!!


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:12 am Post Number: #502 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
When playing the outside, it's a good idea to keep your shoulders relatively closed at point of release.


Of course, there are varying degrees of shoulder alignment. The illustration is a simplistic example.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:55 am Post Number: #503 Post
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Quick report from the Kearny flood:

Just finished league.
Guess what?
They fixed the damn oil machine.
We had a simple house shot tonight.
Wow.
The front desk told me that yeah, they had seriously screwed things up last week.
All fixed.

Ok, I tried the True Motion with Axis layout at 3000 grit in warm up.
I stood with right foot on 6 rolling right up 5.
The True Motion swept right into the pocket and hit high flush and destroyed the pins.
It was pretty amazing.
I got several strikes in practice and could see this had a lot of potential, so I started game 1 with the TM.
First shot in first game: Gutter!
Then on my spare, strike!
I did get a couple of more strikes in this game, but I had to be so perfect that it just wasn't worth it.
If I missed a half board right the ball would not come back, but if I missed a half board left it would almost hold pocket, but would leave that 7 pin.
I needed the first hit in the 10th to win the game for my team, but missed slightly right and left the 1-2.
We lost the game by one pin!
I closed with a 176 clean game.

I continued using the TM up 5 in game 3 for two more frames, but a little miss right was a washout.
The problem was the TM has no shape or recovery, so slight misses right would never come back.
I will save the up 5 stuff for a ball that allows some recovery.
That will be Jackpot territory.

So after frame two I pulled out the Purple Hammer and moved left and went up second arrow.
Immediately 6 in a row.
The other team was like, "wtf?!"
They asked me why I did not do that in the first game, I told them I was experimenting with something my coach was teaching me and that I am not supposed to play up second arrow.

We won the second game by 119 pins and then the third game and the overall.

I see a lot of potential with the up 5, but I need the right ball.
The TM only had one tiny half board you had to hit to strike.
I had to hit 5 1/2 perfectly and it was a strike, slightly right was a miss of the head pin and slightly left was a 7 pin.
I admit I can't hit half a board every single time.
Perhaps if I had taken it down from 3000 to 2000, it might have given it more recovery on misses right.

So that is my report.
No one else dared play that far right.
So with the right ball, I would have had that area all to myself.

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Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:07 am Post Number: #504 Post
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I believe there was a reference pointing to that exact case scenario way back in post # 463........ ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 1:48 pm Post Number: #505 Post
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Well, good job shooting your average doing something you havent practiced much, if at all.
Sounds like someone got a little nervous close to the gutter when the scores started counting, perfectly normal until you get used to it.
Urethane doesnt give you much room and its not good at creating angle on the backend, especially with 0 flare.
Now you have another facet to your game, somewhere you can go when your "A Game" isnt there like you saw last week.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:40 pm Post Number: #506 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Well, good job shooting your average doing something you havent practiced much, if at all.
Sounds like someone got a little nervous close to the gutter when the scores started counting, perfectly normal until you get used to it.
Urethane doesnt give you much room and its not good at creating angle on the backend, especially with 0 flare.
Now you have another facet to your game, somewhere you can go when your "A Game" isnt there like you saw last week.

This was the first time I ever tried this.
It was actually fun out there all alone.
I simply had the wrong ball for that kind of play.
If I hit 5 1/2 perfectly then the ball floated high flush and no question strike.
But very slight miss right would never come back and very slight miss left would go tiny high and 7 pin.
But even this flirtation with way out there showed me that with the right ball, some very high scores could be achieved.
Once I get the Jackpot drilled up and polished I will be exploring this area in earnest.
One day I will be good at this and then use it in league to great advantage.
I am looking forward to the day I do this and my high average doubles partner looks at me in shock, both at where I am playing and how many strikes I am getting. :lol:

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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:41 pm Post Number: #507 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:

Of course, there are varying degrees of shoulder alignment. The illustration is a simplistic example.

Very, very helpful! Thank you! I have to remember to be conscious of this.

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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:10 pm Post Number: #508 Post
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TMack wrote:


Doesn't matter if it's a full roller or not. Getting your hand to get some movement at release will increase your rev rate. I know full rollers with 400+ rev's!!

With a regular 50s-60s full roller release, I doubt you'd reach far above 250 tbf... I got 0 tilt, which means I use the full circumference of the ball, which some call full roller (I do roll the full circumference), and I got 425.

But compared to full rollers as Nord is, he won't reach 400.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:50 pm Post Number: #509 Post
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JJakobsen wrote:
With a regular 50s-60s full roller release, I doubt you'd reach far above 250 tbf... I got 0 tilt, which means I use the full circumference of the ball, which some call full roller (I do roll the full circumference), and I got 425.

But compared to full rollers as Nord is, he won't reach 400.

If I understood Megamav's post on this topic of revs correctly, revs don't matter, what matters is entry angle.
This is why he is desiring me to play far to the right with a ball that can hook a long way and then come in with greater entry angle.
I don't need 400 rpms to do that.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:17 pm Post Number: #510 Post
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I can throw the ball exactly like nord and did for a long time. The rev rate is around 175. I had to throw the ball completely different to get over that. Even with 18 mph speed I never got flying messengers like I do today. I don't know about everyone else but I consider a full roller to use a suit case grip 100% of the time. Anything else is different. I think PDW (I forget the name) uses a 90 degree release not sure the tilt on that but that isn't a full roller either. True full roller has no movent in the hand at all. Grab and release basically.

The upside to this is that the release is almost the exact same every time. The downside is the rev rate. Also it is alot easier to aim and hit the mark with that. Hopefully I will have some time maybe even tonight to make a video showing the difference.

missed 98% of the post on this not really reading but one or 2 post.
Nord, megamav is right entry angle is most important. With that slow ball speed you need to play as right as you can. To far left you have too much deflection.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 25, 2018 10:57 pm Post Number: #511 Post
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krava wrote:
The upside to this is that the release is almost the exact same every time...Also it is a lot easier to aim and hit the mark with that.

I am starting to learn this about the Full Rollers of the past from those that bowled with them.
The Full Rollers were deadly accurate and made up of any lack of revs by hitting their target very consistently.

krava wrote:
Nord, megamav is right entry angle is most important. With that slow ball speed you need to play as right as you can. Too far left you have too much deflection.

And that is where I am going.
I also have discovered that the Full Rollers of the past did play very far right and laid that ball right in the pocket from way out there.
I need to learn how to do that and MegMav has got me started in that direction.

Tonight in league at Parkway, I will get there early and take my Rack Attack and try a couple of practice games from further right to see what happens.
If the look is very good, who knows, I may use it in actual game play.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:49 am Post Number: #512 Post
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Nord House shot report from Parkway Bowl:

Got early to the lanes and took the Rack Attack, Purple and Black Widow urethane.
Tried playing up 5 and right of 5 with the Rack.
It just grabbed and went left immediately!
I could not get it to go up the lane.

So MegaMav, when I start using the Jackpot at 4000 polished and I can't get it up the lane on 5, 4 or 3, what should I do?
I never thought of that, I just assumed it could make it down the lane.

After working on that for bit with the Rack, I switched to my urethane balls so I could get them oiled up and settled before play.
There was more oil today and the Purple seemed to be laboring.
The Widow rolled up better but was leaving the flat 10.

Once play started I began with the Purple doing my normal second arrow play.
I kept moving my feet right to square up and got a couple of strikes that way, but it was still laboring to roll.
Moved my target right a bit and immediate crossover.
Moved my feet left and kept target right, but it was not a reliable shot, under/over.
Closed game 1 with a 171, but we still won the first game as the other team was having even bigger troubles with the oil volume.

Game 2 I switched to the Black Widow and very consciously focused on projection and getting that arm up eye level or higher on the follow through.
I was being careful to not pull through the ball, but to just follow it through.
Wow!
That was the ticket, now the Widow was a hooking beast.
Coming into the 10th I was clean but missed the 10 pin spare in the first frame, still closed with a 225.
Third game a clean 205.
Finished with a 601 series and we won all 4.

You are a genius MegaMav, projection makes all the difference!
The ball was faster, had way more strength and roll and hit real hard and could carry the corners that knuckling would not allow.
I also looked better and more professional with that higher follow through.
Looking good is important. :lol:

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:33 am Post Number: #513 Post
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Look good, feel good, bowl good.
Sounds like one house has head oil right of 10, the other does not.
No head oil, no bueno. Move in.

Im no genius, I just learned from the best (Mo & Jim).

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:11 am Post Number: #514 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
No head oil, no bueno. Move in.

So if 5 is hooking hard and the Jackpot can't hold the line, it's ok to move the target left to 6 or 7, or as far left as needed to get the length and later backend?

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Axis Rotation: 90
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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:50 am Post Number: #515 Post
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The most powerful ball in the world is pretty much useless if it makes controlling the pocket difficult. Always strive to stay as far right as possible, go with anything that will keep you there, and try to resist falling in love with an idea.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:30 pm Post Number: #516 Post
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Nord wrote:
So if 5 is hooking hard and the Jackpot can't hold the line, it's ok to move the target left to 6 or 7, or as far left as needed to get the length and later backend?


Move in to where there is head oil and bump off the friction, even if its a slight angle.

TomaHawk wrote:
and try to resist falling in love with an idea.


Can you clarify?
If that means walking in with no preconceived notions, playing whats out there and remaining versatile, I agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:23 pm Post Number: #517 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Move in to where there is head oil and bump off the friction, even if its a slight angle.

Oh, I see, if the ball won't hold a line up 5, throw from left to right to 5 and use it as the bumper back.
Maybe just a tiny left to right is all that is needed to get the length.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:16 pm Post Number: #518 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Move in to where there is head oil and bump off the friction, even if its a slight angle.



Can you clarify?
If that means walking in with no preconceived notions, playing whats out there and remaining versatile, I agree.


No preconceived notions unless the objective is absolute as in ball speed. A bowler with a lower rev rate should look toward increasing their speed before moving to another part of the lane.

For bowlers who rely almost totally on accuracy, bumping the shot often results in a poor angle of entry. Worse, on missed shots, the resultant pin count will be less than desirable.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:25 pm Post Number: #519 Post
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Nord wrote:
Oh, I see, if the ball won't hold a line up 5, throw from left to right to 5 and use it as the bumper back.
Maybe just a tiny left to right is all that is needed to get the length.


Its a feel thing, it depends what the ball is doing.
If you know where the friction is, you use it as miss room right, its all about getting the angle thru the front part of the lane correct to expose "hook on a miss out and hold on a miss in".

This game isnt rigid, not everything is an X board move. There is some feel to it.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:53 pm Post Number: #520 Post
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There is a possibility the Jackpot will be done in time for Surf Bowl league this Thursday.
Will let you know.
I am excited.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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