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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:12 pm Post Number: #421 Post
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Pretty much!
She has tilt to shape the ball more, hooks for longer, but pretty much the idea, yes.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:06 am Post Number: #422 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Pretty much!
She has tilt to shape the ball more, hooks for longer, but pretty much the idea, yes.

Cool.
She makes it look easy.
I could see she has tilt, so that ball floats for longer and just goes left nice and smooth.
If only...
Ok, well I will give it the yeoman's try tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:12 pm Post Number: #423 Post
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Contacted Kearny today and they are having tournaments there over this weekend so no open bowling on the weekend.
I guess I will have to try next week for the video.
Will do my best to get it soon.

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High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:49 am Post Number: #424 Post
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Here is a Nord House Shot report from league tonight at Kearny:

As you know I made a nice breakthrough two weeks ago that has allowed me to set new personal series records and tie my all time high score of 259.
Each time out I have bowled a 600 plus series and my average over the three outings has been 212.
These scores were achieved at Parkway Bowl and Surf Bowl, both of which use the yellow colored lanes with a medium volume of oil.

Tonight I bowled at Kearny Mesa Bowl which uses the Big Ben Pattern on Brunswick Pro Anvilane.

This time I brought my Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane at 320 grit, my Widow Urethane at 500 grit and my Purple Hammer (The ball I set my records with) at 2000 grit.

I started with the Purple in warmup and it simply would not grab the lane.
I then went to the Widow and it simply would not grab the lane.
Then I went to the Scorcher and it simply would not grab the lane!

WTF?!

I could not believe it.
How could there be that much oil???

I tried laying the Scorcher down straight up 7 and it just went straight.
I moved my feet way right and still nothing.

Play started and I used the Scorcher and closed with a 163.
I had to aim it right at the pocket and it would just slide to the pocket and if I stuffed it just right, it could strike, otherwise 5-7, 5 pin, 10 pin, 7 pin and so on.

In game 2 I used the Purple and moved way right and threw it right at the pocket and again it was hit and miss.
I closed with a 173.

In game 3 used the Widow, hoping for some hook, but there was none.
Closed with a 142.

The problem was no hook, and spares were missed to the right.
None of my house shot spares targets were any good.
I had to figure out how to line up for spares like I was throwing a polished plastic ball.

Listen to this: A half board miss to the right of my target resulted in a 5 board miss at the pins.

Imagine you were given a polished spare ball and told you had to use only that.
That is how it was tonight, a piece of ice on ice.
In this case, actual real curling without the guys with the scrapers to guide the ball.

In the third game I called the league secretary over and asked him why they feel the need to put down that much oil?
He said: "I don't know, it is looking good for me."
I said: "You are a high rev bowler using strong reactive, we are normal league bowlers. My Widow urethane at 500 grit with a high flare layout will not even roll."
He said: "Let me see you throw one."
So on my next strike shot he saw the ball do nothing.
He then said: "Well, we did actually put a new buffer on the oil machine, so that buffer really shined the sh-t out of the lanes tonight. Combine that with Big Ben, oh well sorry."
And that was the end of that.
Didn't even care since it was working for him.

But, I was not depressed because I knew it was totally out of my hands.
I tried playing all over the lane and no hook anywhere and lots of opens with spares missed to the right.
Normally if I miss a tiny bit to the right of my target, just half a board or less, the ball will of course hook back because this is a house shot.
Not at Kearny, half a board miss right was 5 boards right at the pin, not kidding.

I need a whole new arsenal for Kearny.
Urethane, no matter how strong it is, will not grab there.
They have created a high rev bowler's condition.
It is unfair to the other bowlers.
The players on my team were all under average and were very sad when they left the lanes tonight.
I tried to tell them it was not their fault, the lanes just had too much oil.
But they still felt they had failed somehow.

So what do I do for Kearny and this much oil?
What can I do?

MegaMav might say "find the friction right of second arrow."
I looked over there, there was no friction for my balls.
Normally I can take any urethane ball, stand with right foot on 8 and roll it up 7 and it will hook instantly and roll out and lope across the whole lane.
Not at Kearny.
The ball would just go straight to the 3-6 pocket.
I could make a 10 pin by rolling over second arrow right at the pin and it would never try to hook.

This is a condition with zero margin for error.
I missed many spares.
I had several opens per game by simply missing my spare target by less than half a board right.
One player on our team uses a strong reactive and has good lift and loft on the ball and often picks up left side spares by just lofting the ball on the lane and watching it hook across the lane.
He could not do that tonight, his ball would just stay right and float down the lane.
He actually threw a couple right side gutters tonight trying to make a 5 pin!
He would normally chuck the ball on 8 and expect it to grab immediately and come back.
The ball just slid across into the gutter.

So I went from three 600 plus series in a row, to a 481 series.

What do I do???

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Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Last edited by Nord on Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:53 pm Post Number: #425 Post
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Move in, what was your reaction going straight down 15-18?

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 1:57 pm Post Number: #426 Post
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Nord, I don't even know where to begin. 424 posts later and you still have no strategy for dealing with unfamiliar conditions? 44' of oil, 7:1 on a lower friction surface.

If I understand correctly, you moved your feet and target a board or two, but were basically playing your straight game up 7/8 for 30 frames.

Did you try moving your feet left and your break point right? Getting lined up is what the 10 minutes of warmup is for. If your ball doesn't read the first try, it's probably not going to improve.

Did you watch the "high rev" players who were scoring to see where their break point was?

You only brought urethane, which dominated on 6-14 ml of oil 30 years ago, but now you're bowling on 25-30 ml of oil. It might be time to start bringing a plastic spare ball and a reactive.

Granted, there may have been something new/unusual about their stripping or buffing process. This happens to us all the time. Our lane guy experiments with volume, different conditioners and stripper ratios. They don't use the AC and the humidity wreaks havoc as well. It's always a guessing game.

You need to be able to read your ball reaction and adapt. There was friction out there. If not outside 5 to the right, then off the end of the pattern. You have to get your ball to that spot WITH ENERGY. Not start it in the dry and have it roll out instantly. This is where we started back in post #1.

Increasing your angle through the front, or going straight up 12-15 might have given you a better look than what you had up the track. Make a list of possible adjustments and bring it with you, and go through it when you are struggling.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:01 pm Post Number: #427 Post
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Nord:The problem was no hook, and spares were missed to the right.
None of my house shot spares targets were any good.
I had to figure out how to line up for spares like I was throwing a polished plastic ball.


I think the above analysis is a correct assessment. A well known instructor once said: "If the lane is playing straight for you, go straight".

Nord, with your style and lower loft angle, when you encounter lesser volumes of oil at the point of release, the ball is going to hook off your hand. The Big Ben pattern is fairly long, the oil is thinner at the foul line on the outside. On this particular oil pattern, the more you moved right, the sooner the ball hooked. In fact, it probably hooked so early, the ball basically rammed into the oil line at the end of the pattern, causing the ball to go almost straight into the 3 pin.

If you feel uncomfortable moving inside, which is the area of the lane where power players are going migrate to, you might have to adjust your loft angle. Possibly, that could help you get a better look at the pocket.

The way to get the ball further out on the lane is to stand taller. (Do not try to pitch the ball upward). Stay tall all the way through the approach with intent of letting the ball go about 1 - 1 1/2 feet above the foul line at the point of release.

Because Big Ben is relatively dry on the outside, you may require a ball with less surface friction.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:07 pm Post Number: #428 Post
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stevespo wrote:
If I understand correctly, you moved your feet and target a board or two, but were basically playing your straight game up 7/8 for 30 frames.
Did you try moving your feet left and your break point right?
Steve

I moved all over the place both in practice and in play for all the frames.
I was trying to find some hook somewhere and never found it.
I never saw my ball move at the end of the pattern.
I tried between second and third arrow, outside second arrow, on second arrow.
The balls just skidded the whole way.
There was no defined dry area I could find.

Perhaps reactive would have read the end of the pattern for me and allowed a last minute hook.
But I did not have reactive with.
The high rev players were playing through the middle of the lane, center arrow out to 10 and back mostly.
The players trying to play up or outside of second arrow were getting killed with their balls bouncing off the pins leaving pocket splits.
The guys on the pair to the right of me were going crazy, they left so many splits and washouts and they were using reactive.
I knew, if I just had a ball that could read the end of the pattern I would have had a shot.
But urethane is designed to read the front of the pattern, hook and then set.
But at Kearny there was no front of the pattern read at all so my urethane could do nothing in the back.

Wrong balls for the condition.
Next week I am taking strong reactive and one urethane ball for spares.
I will see if this works.

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High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:10 pm Post Number: #429 Post
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I think this thread has become a dog chasing its tail.

Until we see video of things that are happening, its impossible to figure out what is going on. We have smart people on here that know ball motion to be able to come up with an answer. So in short. Video video video, even if its during league.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:46 pm Post Number: #430 Post
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MeNoRevs wrote:
I think this thread has become a dog chasing its tail.

Until we see video of things that are happening, its impossible to figure out what is going on. We have smart people on here that know ball motion to be able to come up with an answer. So in short. Video video video, even if its during league.

Next time this happens I will get a teammate to use my iPhone to record a few shots so you can see.
It will be embarrassing and ugly, but perhaps you can see something...

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:15 pm Post Number: #431 Post
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In situations like you saw, in practice to start the night, I'll test way way out near the gutter.
Like straight up 3 to see if there is friction there.
If there is, you're on an island, rarely do league bowlers have to gonads to play out there.
Accuracy and no fear = scores.
IMO the non-house shot modern game is played outside or inside of the track area.
With modern oil volumes and modern balls, the track area is death. Friction up front, carrydown on the back.
I like the soft ball from the outside, others like playing it further in. Its all about player preference.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:25 pm Post Number: #432 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
In situations like you saw, in practice to start the night, I'll test way way out near the gutter.
Like straight up 3 to see if there is friction there.
If there is, you're on an island, rarely do league bowlers have to gonads to play out there.
Accuracy and no fear = scores.

Next time I will explore out there.
Its an island, like you say, that takes some gonads to play, but it couldn't have been any worse than zero grip everywhere else.

MegaMav wrote:
IMO the non-house shot modern game is played outside or inside of the track area.
With modern oil volumes and modern balls, the track area is death.

Do you mean, on shots that are not house-shots, don't play the track area?
Or did you mean, playing the track with modern balls on House Shots is death?

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:50 pm Post Number: #433 Post
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The next time you encounter this condition try a ball or two using a target at the arrows slightly left of the third arrow. Adjust your feet until the ball hits the pocket. It should go almost straight down the 17 board to the pocket. You'll have to be very accurate. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:57 pm Post Number: #434 Post
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JohnP wrote:
The next time you encounter this condition try a ball or two using a target at the arrows slightly left of the third arrow. Adjust your feet until the ball hits the pocket. It should go almost straight down the 17 board to the pocket. You'll have to be very accurate. -- JohnP

Ah...play it like the Badger!
Norm's victory on the Badger in the King of Swing was one of the most amazing displays of accuracy and control I have maybe ever seen.
He was talking to himself about 1/4 board adjustments.
It was amazing to watch him thread the needle time and time again and put just the right touch and speed on the ball to get it to face up.
Wow, what a bowler...


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:30 pm Post Number: #435 Post
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Nord Just thought I'd drop this in for comparison, this is a double competition being played on Big Ben. How does it appear compared to what you bowled on, the lines you and others played etc.

Robert Toth/Tim Martin vs Derek Walters/Shane Letendre Hosted: January 3rd, 2016 at Old Mountain Lanes Pattern: Kegel Big Ben

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:59 pm Post Number: #436 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
Nord Just thought I'd drop this in for comparison, this is a double competition being played on Big Ben. How does it appear compared to what you bowled on, the lines you and others played etc.

Lol!
I heard one guy say: "It sure is wet!"
And the guy that commented after the left hander threw it out to 3 and the ball never came back: "Ok, now you know where you can't throw it."

But they are making it look easy!
That is not the way it was at Kearny.
The guys that were scoring were not playing up second arrow or playing slightly left to right off second arrow like a plain old house shot.
They were far inside playing center or third arrow out to 10 with a lot of hand.
Also, this is the yellow/orange surface that has a lot of friction, not the white polished Brunswick Pro Anvilane like Kearny has.
This just looks like a normal house shot and they are all just playing their "A" game, either up second arrow or around it.
The one guy though is playing third arrow out to 10, which is more like they do at Kearny.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 4:08 am Post Number: #437 Post
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Nord House Shot at Parkway Bowl report:

Took three balls.
Purple Hammer
Black Widow Urethane
Rack Attack.

I was doing my normal directly up second arrow shot.
In warmup the Purple was coming in a little weakly, more oil tonight.
The Widow was hooking up better but hitting weirdly with no carry.
I took a shot directly up second arrow with the Rack Attack expecting it to jump off the pattern.
Nope, it went straight as an arrow and hit the 3-6 pocket!
Wow, zero hook or grab with the Rack!

As play started I went with the Widow, but it was hitting flat on high flush shots and I left a high flush 5-7 split twice.
Closed game one with a 163, only one strike.

Game two I moved my feet and target a little right and tried the Purple.
Right of second arrow it was hooking too early and making control difficult, so I moved the target back to second arrow and this allowed a more controllable shot.
But there simply was no carry.
I was in good form and getting nice control and working on projection and follow through which I could see was helping the ball to roll more strongly, but even on high flush shots, corners were being left.
I just couldn't strike, there was no pop.
Closed game two with a 183.

Game three I continued with the Purple, but after 4 more frames of flat hits with no strikes, I decided to give the Rack Attack a try.
How worse could it be?

Since it was much weaker/later than my urethane balls, I moved further right with my feet to square up more on the second arrow.
I made a nice smooth extended shot with a good follow through.
The ball slid up second arrow for a long way.
Oh well, so much for that idea.
Then the Rack hit the end of the pattern and here it came!
A Powerful 10 back!
OMG...WTF?!

I then repeated and got an immediate turkey, 9 spare, strike again and 9 spare out for a 204.
It was easy, real easy.
Every good shot had that strong, late, backend that smashed the pins hard.
A little miss right came back and was still in the pocket and carried.

Wow, how dumb I am.
I should have been using this ball from the start.
Well we learn don't we?
It takes longer for some of us.
I think I am done farting around with urethane.
It is time to get my reactive mojo on.
I was bowling well all night, making very good shots and not getting carry.
I switched to reactive at the end, and easy, all good shots rewarded.

My form is getting much better.
My follow through is now up to just under my chin without pain.
The ball is projecting nicely and picking up a good roll more often than not.
My ball speed is up two miles per hour.
My accuracy is improved.
I think I am ready now.

MegaMav, next saturday you are getting a video.
I am tired of screwing around.
I am tired of hitting the pocket and not getting strikes.
I want the reward for the good shots now.

FYI: My partner was playing between second arrow and 6 all night with his Code Red and his carry was insane.
It did not matter how crappy his pocket hit was, he carried.
He had games of 248, 245 and 259 for a 752 series, the new league scratch high series.

I deserve carry, and now, finally, I am ready to take it.

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PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 5:57 pm Post Number: #438 Post
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It sounds like you are embarrassed to show us videos, to be honest. Remember, we don't care how you look, except seeing what we can help you improve. If you feel you look foolish, we don't see that, we see what you technically do wrong, no matter how it looks, and try to improve it. But we do need them videos. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:34 pm Post Number: #439 Post
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You "deserve" carry? Really?

As I've said before, you throw a full-roller with a traditional grip, and you really don't want to vary your shot from the second arrow. What about that says that you deserve to carry?


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 6:36 pm Post Number: #440 Post
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JJakobsen wrote:
It sounds like you are embarrassed to show us videos, to be honest. Remember, we don't care how you look, except seeing what we can help you improve. If you feel you look foolish, we don't see that, we see what you technically do wrong, no matter how it looks, and try to improve it. But we do need them videos. ;)

Not embarrassed at all, my youtube bowling channel is a testament to my non-embarrassment.
It is just a matter of getting the tripod, camera, balls and getting to the Kearny lanes 20 miles away when they don't have tournaments going on on the weekends, as was the case this last weekend.
I will try again this Saturday and do the shot sequence for MegaMav.

I will mention that a few hours after bowling last night my shoulder was sore as was the tendon in my arm where it connects to the bicep.
The greater follow through is putting more stress on them.
Trying to raise the arm up higher takes some strength/muscle.
If I am more bent forward at the foul line, then it is hard to get that arm up.
Try it, bend over forward and then try to raise your arm above your chin, pretty hard huh?
But, if I am more upright at the line, then the arm comes up easier with less strain.
I have to remember to stay more upright.

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PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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