Help Nord Score On House Shots

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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

Here's the report from Surf Bowl tonight,

Took three balls:

Rack Attack at 4000 grit with low flare layout, pin at 1 1/2"
Arsenal Angular Particle Pearl at 600/1500 grit with Axis Weight Layout.
True Motion Urethane at 1000 grit with Axis Weight Layout.

In warmup I started with the Rack Attack and tried pretty much every target at the arrows from 15 to 7 and every breakpoint from 13 to 5.
Could not find any reaction that was consistent or dependable with this ball.
It was all over the place with reaction and every reaction was poor at the pins.

Then I tried some practice shots with the Arsenal and it did not want to be pushed left to right.
Had to go straight due to the Axis Weight layout and had to keep it on, or inside second arrow in the oil since this particle ball is so strong.
But I had to go right up the boards for it to react right.
Not easy to do consistently.

I did no warm up with the True Motion since I know exactly what it does and where to play it on any House Shot.
It would be kept in reserve.

When play started I decided to throw caution to the winds and find a way to push the Rack Attack left to right and get it to break back.
I never found any reaction from it and the only strike I got was a Brooklyn in the 10th frame on a bad shot.
I take that back, it did jump left when I pushed it 15 to 13, then when it exited the pattern, it grabbed hard and went left, but it went too high.
If I went 15 to 12 then it just floated right and came in far too light and any further right with the breakpoint and it just washed out.
In summary, I could not get the left to right shot to work with the Rack Attack, there was simply no reaction, no angularity, or push back. Nada.
The ball either, kept going right, stopped and rolled straight, came back too high, came back weakly, or crossed over.
Zero control of the reaction.
I did see that I could move right and go down and in with it and it would likely have moved in the back, but I was committed to trying left to right with it so I did not explore more down and in stuff.

Here is the score from Game 1 with the Rack Attack:
Game 1 Rack Attack.png

Game 2 I pulled out the Arsenal Angular and moved my feet left a bit and went right up second arrow.
If I made a good shot the ball would rotate right up and then once it exited the pattern it would flip hard and hit to pocket with tremendous force.
If I missed right a board, the ball came back fine, but if I missed two boards right then it did not come back, but burned up and rolled straight.
If I missed inside even half a board, it crossed over.
But I was fairly accurate and this thing was killing the pins.

Here is Game 2 with the Arsenal:
Game 2 Arsenal Angular Particle.png
In Game 3 I continued with the Arsenal, but now it was not hitting hard anymore or striking.
I made a slight move right, 1/2 board to see if it would come up flush, but it would not hold and went high.
I then moved in a touch but still no go.
I continued with it till I completed the 8th frame and then I put it back in the bag and pulled out the True Motion to finish off.
I of course made a big jump right and rolled it right up 7 and it floated in nicely.

Here is Game 3 with the Arsenal through frame 8 and the True Motion for frames 9-10:
Game 3 Arsenal and True Motion 9th-10th Frame.png
Now, while I was sucking, one of our medium average bowlers, using his 13 pound broken reactive ball (he left it in his car and never cleaned it and it cracked open all around the equator) had the front 8!

So my pristine balls with all their fancy layouts couldn't do squat for me, but a medium average bowler with a broken bowling ball can almost get a 300 game.

After play was over, I asked for a lane to do one practice game to get my timing and release down before I left.
I used my True Motion.
The ball was not oiled up yet, so it started by going high and each shot was a little weaker and I had to keep moving my feet right until I had to move my target in and finally it was square in the pocket.
But by then the practice game was over.

Here is that game, which is typical of my normal scores with this ball, I generally get few strikes and my scores almost entirely consist of spares.
Usually I can stay clean, but I made a boo, boo this time and had one open:
True Motion Score.png
So there you have it.
Reactive just was not working for me, or when it did, it was fleeting for a game and then gone.
Weaker Urethane let me be totally in control of the reaction and very accurate.
My practice game did not have strikes because the True Motion was in transition mode, oiling up and settling in and I had to find where on the lane to play it once it reached equlibrium.

Sunday is Kearny league on The Flood.
I established a 154 average I think there.
I have no idea what I will do there, or what ball to even use, or how I should throw it, or target.
The only possible hope is the Scorcher down and in, I am not sure any of my reactive balls would do anything, or if they did, it might be the same totally inconsistent reaction.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

Let me add one more thing.
Surf bowl has a super, ultra, easy house shot.
I know this, because on Wednesday's, my doubles partner from Parkway bowls in the scratch league.
The scores on that night each week are monumental.
On the pair next to him a guy rolled a 857.
279's, 290's and 300 are flying around each night.
Even in my lowly league on Thursdays, average bowlers are putting down all time high scores for them.
And because Surf has a super easy house shot is exactly why I am only averaging barely 168 there.
It seems the easier the house shot is, the worse I do.
The more blocked and defined it is, the less usable area I have on the lane to play.
So far I have only found one ball that I can stay in the pocket with on those lanes and that is my True Motion with Axis drill at a smooth 1000 grit going right up 7 and letting it arc in soft.
That's it.
No other ball has even tried to help me, except one week when I got the Purple to work fairly well, but the grit had to be high, 2000.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by MegaMav »

IMO the Rack Attack Solid's cover is relatively strong and early reading, but it is smooth.
Go out and practice more, this is like learning to bowl all over again.
You'll need to pay attention to your ball motion more now.
The Jackpot thats on the way to you was actually designed to be used mostly on house shots.

Show me the Rack Attack and its low flare layout on video again with that sequence of moves across the slope of the pattern.

I just want to point out one thing you mentioned above
I take that back, it did jump left when I pushed it 15 to 13, then when it exited the pattern, it grabbed hard and went left, but it went too high.
If I went 15 to 12 then it just floated right and came in far too light and any further right with the breakpoint and it just washed out.
One of 4 things are happening that you're not describing in the ball motion.

#1 You're encountering what I described in a previous post. Playing a house shot in the block is not recommended because the corner of the pattern down lane gets washed out, misses in go left and misses out go a mile. (Possible)

#2 Your miss right is encountering more friction and rolling forward (Most unlikely)

#3 You are doing something different to the ball between those 2 shots. (Very likely)

#4 You arent hitting your marks like you think you are, especially down lane. (Possible)

This is why I'd like to see practice video, so I can understand what is going on.
Keep practicing this, its not going to happen overnight.
Remember to accentuate your release, elongate your finish. Dont cut it short, you will be more consistent.
This doesnt mean pull down on it or pull up.
Cutting it short you're actually using more muscle to stop your arm than just let the arm go.

You'll get this, im confident. It may take just focusing on this at one house for now. Seems you like to practice at Kearny most, so maybe consider start trying to tackle that one house first.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by 44boyd »

Nord wrote:Let me add one more thing.
Surf bowl has a super, ultra, easy house shot.
I know this, because on Wednesday's, my doubles partner from Parkway bowls in the scratch league.
The scores on that night each week are monumental.
On the pair next to him a guy rolled a 857.
279's, 290's and 300 are flying around each night.
Even in my lowly league on Thursdays, average bowlers are putting down all time high scores for them.
And because Surf has a super easy house shot is exactly why I am only averaging barely 168 there.
It seems the easier the house shot is, the worse I do.
The more blocked and defined it is, the less usable area I have on the lane to play.
So far I have only found one ball that I can stay in the pocket with on those lanes and that is my True Motion with Axis drill at a smooth 1000 grit going right up 7 and letting it arc in soft.
That's it.
No other ball has even tried to help me, except one week when I got the Purple to work fairly well, but the grit had to be high, 2000.
Don’t know if you’re a baseball guy or not, but it’s like batting like Ty Cobb in today’s game. Yes he got a lot of hits and is known for his skill, but no one would recommend hitting that way. You gave the line, one game on the fresh. You have to see it transition from practice through all the games. You might not be able to swing it 13-7 in the first game, but you should be able to make the move when the lanes transition if you follow Mav’s advise. I’d like to see if you could lower your rotation down, not even saying get under/behind the ball. Like in all the training videos, they state to visualize your shot. Once you see it move the way it’s supposed too, it builds confidence in it.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

I appreciate the analysis and tips.
I felt pretty helpless with the Rack Attack.
I could pretty much see that it was not going to have any reliable reaction, but I persisted with fishing around with it as an experiment.
It was frustrating because every throw produced a different reaction.
In my Game 1 score sheet you also see a lot of opens with 8 where I got 1 on the spare.
Those were shots where the ball would not come back and left the 1-2.
Then on the spare attempt I made an adjustment in my strike line to see if I could get the ball to come up flush, but it would not and only touched the 1 and left the 2.
The point was, anywhere right of second arrow the ball had no pop, no strong comeback.
The only place in the lane it would jump was at the end of the pattern around 14-13.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by MegaMav »

Nord wrote: The point was, anywhere right of second arrow the ball had no pop, no strong comeback.
The only place in the lane it would jump was at the end of the pattern around 14-13.
Probably hard for you to tell because its a solid ball, but it sounds to me the friction rolled it forward too early to the right.
This is the problem with low tilt, balls transition too fast, hence why im sending you a cleaner covered ball.
Next time out in practice show me on video what you're going through with the Rack Attack.
Just seems hard to believe a smooth reacting solid ball with a fine finish, low diff core, with a low diff layout that probably doesnt flare that much will cut off the hook zone like that unless the friction is sparking dry.
If you have a slow transitioning urethane ball with a core in it, you can try a finer finish on it, but it will be weak on the backend especially if it encounters carrydown.
Why this works with reactive is it will allow for a wider angle than the slow responding urethane allowing you to get around the carrydown at the corner of the pattern which is where a majority of the problems are on a house shot. Sometimes called "tweener hell".

One key: You cannot knuckle it down the lane, cutting the swing short doing this. Thats why im asking you to elongate your finish.

Note: With low tilt, small differences in release will exaggerate the reaction on the lane. Its a volatile release.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

MegaMav wrote: Probably hard for you to tell because its a solid ball, but it sounds to me the friction rolled it forward too early to the right.
As I mentioned before, Surf has super dry sides and backend.
I cannot, repeat, cannot, use any of my strong urethane balls right of second arrow or they roll out instantly!
I can only use my weakest, non-flaring, True Motion Axis Drill at 1000 grit smooth, then I can go up 7 or 8 and it will arc in smoothly with perfect control.
MegaMav wrote:Just seems hard to believe a smooth reacting solid ball with a fine finish, low diff core, with a low diff layout that probably doesn't flare that much will cut off the hook zone like that unless the friction is sparking dry.
It really did nothing right of second arrow when I tried to push it right.
The only time I got it to come back to the pocket, and it was a very slow, weak, comemback, was to go 6 to 5 and then it loped back slow.
But that was bordering on down and in.
I did not try any down and in shots with it at all because that was not my purpose for it.
But based on how it was reacting, I felt that if I had squared up with it, that it would have gotten length and probably moved nicely to the pocket.
Not sure though.
MegaMav wrote:If you have a slow transitioning urethane ball with a core in it, you can try a finer finish on it, but it will be weak on the backend especially if it encounters carrydown.
My Purple Hammer has a super high RG and super low diff core (RG 2.65, Diff .015) and I tried it one week at Surf and got my highest series there to date, a 567.
On the left lane I simply went straight up second arrow, but on the right lane I had to go up 9.
It made a very subtle move with hook spread out over the whole length of the lane.
I have my other True Motion with pin at 3 3/8, perhaps taking it up to 2000 or 3000 would allow it to go left to right on Surf?
But this ball flares a ton.
MegaMav wrote:One key: You cannot knuckle it down the lane, cutting the swing short doing this. Thats why im asking you to elongate your finish.
When I use urethane I got in the habit of doing this for three reasons:
1. It allows me to get the ball into a controlled roll very quickly.
2. It allows me to reduce release errors and be way more accurate.
3. It takes far less effort to just relax my arm once the ball leaves my hand and not keep pulling up.
I seem to remember Stuart Williams has a very short followthrough?
I will see what I can do though.
MegaMav wrote:Note: With low tilt, small differences in release will exaggerate the reaction on the lane. Its a volatile release.
Hey, no one ever said my bowling style was Volatile before. Cool!

Ok, I have not given up yet with pushing right.
The Gladiator is so far the only ball that wants to roar back when I push it right, but there must be oil or it just dies out and goes straight, or can't come back strongly.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by MegaMav »

Nord wrote: Hey, no one ever said my bowling style was Volatile before. Cool!

Ok, I have not given up yet with pushing right.
The Gladiator is so far the only ball that wants to roar back when I push it right, but there must be oil or it just dies out and goes straight, or can't come back strongly.
Volatile in what it does to the ball reaction. High rotation, low tilt.

My advice to you: Screw around.
Play different lines with different balls in your practice session, see what ball reactions you can get and try to apply that to either that house or situations at different houses.
Dont record it, dont keep score, dont even look at the scoreboard. Just treat it as an information session.
This is starting your mental notebook. Ball motion matters, take note!

Remember: Stopping the arm takes more muscle than letting it continue, and letting it drop down past your leg.
Im not saying dead arm it, just a nice continued arc of the arm. More accurate and more motion down lane!
Tell the ball where to go, dont let it take you for a ride.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

MegaMav wrote:
Volatile in what it does to the ball reaction. High rotation, low tilt.

My advice to you: Screw around.
Play different lines with different balls in your practice session, see what ball reactions you can get and try to apply that to either that house or situations at different houses.
Dont record it, dont keep score, dont even look at the scoreboard. Just treat it as an information session.
This is starting your mental notebook. Ball motion matters, take note!

Remember: Stopping the arm takes more muscle than letting it continue, and letting it drop down past your leg.
Im not saying dead arm it, just a nice continued arc of the arm. More accurate and more motion down lane!
Tell the ball where to go, don't let it take you for a ride.
Ok, will do.
I will practice, try different balls and see what I can do.
I will see if I can get my arm to keep coming forward without flinging the ball inaccurately.
When I get the Jackpot I will do the 40 degrees down, 2" layout if you still feel this is best.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by JJakobsen »

Beef Stu got the shortest possible follow-through, and he is one of the few who can do it properly, so not something you'd like to use as a guide, in my opinion. How he can consistently give the ball revs and speed with the accuracy he got is actually beyond me. Shouldn't be done, he manages it, somehow. He has an almost normal follow-through with his upper arm, but his lower arm does not continue beyond being straight at the elbow.

Now, having a proper follow-through doesn't necessarily mean overdoing it like many female bowlers have a tendency to do (for some odd reason, only female bowlers as I've seen). Clara Guerrero is the one that comes to mind for me.

After you get your arm, still straight, up to the parallel level, you are kinda free to let it do whatever you want, but just letting it swing and hinge freely is more assuring for keeping your arm relaxed from swing and through the release.

With your short span and release technique, being properly relaxed and letting the arm go on as it should might be challenging. Release drills standing up might be the way to go to get the feel for it.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TomaHawk »

Nord, you mention, a person using a #13 ball had a good look at the pocket. At one time, Quantum claimed, their #12 ball hit as hard a #16. It may be true, but it's doubtful. The margin of striking potential on anything but a perfect shot would not be the same.

Talking about the perfect shot, it appears your type of game requires the ball to have a perfect angle of entry to strike. In all of your videos, it's hard to recall a shot where the 6 pin jumped out of the channel, bumping out the 10 for a strike. Having that type of hitting power is important and is partially responsible for the high scores we see today. But, the person rolling the ball needs to have the physical potential to utilize that hitting power, otherwise it's a moot point.

Having said that, have you given thought to a much lighter bowling ball? Or, have you tried it?
Last edited by TomaHawk on June 1st, 2018, 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by JohnP »

Nord - This is a reality check.

I really hope Mav is able to find a line and ball combination that will be magical for you, greatly improving your strike percentage.

But you may just have to accept that, given your various physical limitations that prevent you from increasing speed and revs and from switching to a semi-roller (which, by the way, I don't really think would help you without increased speed and revs) you may have reached the limit of your ability. If this turns out to be the case, keep bowling and have a good time. The best way to improve your score will be to improve your spare conversion percentage. Good luck and good bowling. -- JohnP
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

TomaHawk wrote:Nord, you mention, a person using a #13 ball had a good look at the pocket. At one time, Quantum claimed, their #12 ball hit as hard a #16. It may be true, but it's doubtful. The margin of striking potential on anything but a perfect shot would be the same.

Talking about the perfect shot, it appears your type of game requires the ball to have a perfect angle of entry to strike. In all of your videos, it's hard to recall a shot where the 6 pin jumped out of the channel, bumping out the 10 for a strike. Having that type of hitting power is important and is partially responsible for the high scores we see today. But, the person rolling the ball needs to have the physical potential to utilize that hitting power, otherwise it's a moot point.

Having said that, have you given thought to a much lighter bowling ball? Or, have you tried it?
He was actually using a "broken" 13lb ball.
So maybe that is the trick, I just need to crack my ball all the way around and leave a huge chasm showing the core like his does.
He was just playing down and in up 8 with a little loft out into the lane.
He had the front 8 and was making his approach when one of the idiot bowlers in our league from another lane started talking loudly to him!
He was startled and threw it right in the gutter and that ended his streak.
I heard later that it had happened.
If I had seen it I would have demanded a redo for him.

I used to use a 12 lb reactive ball with fingertip grip (Midnight Vibe) back when I had terrible layouts that caused a lot of pain.
I eventually moved up to 15 and 14 lbs. once I went to my current conventional grip.
I alternate between those weights.
14 is usually easier to control with less stress.

Here is a video where I am using my 15 lb Widow urethane and I am getting a lot of 6 pin slaps of the 10.

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

Does anyone know anything about the 10 1/8" Full Roller layout?
Pin is placed up 10 1/8" from palm center, past PAP, rather than down?
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TomaHawk »

Nord wrote:Does anyone know anything about the 10 1/8" Full Roller layout?
Pin is placed up 10 1/8" from palm center, past PAP, rather than down?


Is this the layout where the pin is placed in the 1:30 (45*) position, 10 1/8 inches from the cog? There are a couple of people around town using that layout.

Some people would call it: 10" pin, full roller, leverage layout.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by RobMautner »

I just went back and looked at every video you posted. They all have one thing in common: you strike at will. You carry the ten and the seven on light hits, and you trip the four on high hits. This was the case with every single ball that you were using. Next you tell us that you can't strike, even in really easy houses. So, what's the difference?

You keep looking for the magic ball, or the magic line. Could it be that it's not the ball or the line? Could it be that you just need to learn to relax and stop trying to throw strikes when it counts and just bowl like it's practice?

By the way, you never did answer my question about seeing a Certified Coach. Have you?
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

TomaHawk wrote:

Is this the layout where the pin is placed in the 1:30 (45*) position, 10 1/8 inches from the cog? There are a couple of people around town using that layout.

Some people would call it: 10" pin, full roller, leverage layout.
Yes, that is the one, the pin is placed at the 1:30pm location rather than the 7:30pm location.
A reverse Full Roller drilling you could call it.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

RobMautner wrote:I just went back and looked at every video you posted. They all have one thing in common: you strike at will.
Funny.
RobMautner wrote:By the way, you never did answer my question about seeing a Certified Coach. Have you?
As I said before, I was interested in taking a lesson from Mark Baker since he really helped my doubles partner improve so much after only one lesson. But Mark said: "If your backswing does not go up to your hip, I can't help you."
There is another super great bowler at Kearny, Steve Smith who is also a coach.
I have his card.
My fear of a coach is, he will want to totally change me and will get me into trouble with the pain in my arm.
I can't go through that pain again.
Also he will want me to convert to semi-roller, get a fingertip grip and there is another big expense getting all new balls and learning the whole game over from scratch.
Maybe in the end it would be worth it, but maybe I would be no better than I am now.
What I want is to find a coach who is super familiar with Vintage Full Rollers, who can look at me and immediately know what I need to do to optimize my style.
Since mostly all coaches are concerned only with the modern game and modern way of bowling, they would likely not be able to provide any advice for a 1930's style bowler.
If you know an old dog that remembers the old days and can help a fellow old dog, then that is the guy I want to see.

TomaHawk seems to be the only one who was actually there in the old days with the old Full Rollers who knows how they bowled and what they did to score best.
I think there is still a place for us dinosaurs in this modern game, it is just a matter of adapting technique and equipment to make it work.
That is what MegaMav is trying to help me with.

Maybe the ball choices and layout choices I have made all suck and that is holding me back.
Maybe how I play the lanes also sucks and is holding me back.
Those are the things I need someone who really knows and understands to tell me.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TomaHawk »

Nord wrote: Yes, that is the one, the pin is placed at the 1:30pm location rather than the 7:30pm location.
A reverse Full Roller drilling you could call it.
There is a guy around town that just converted to a full roller release, stating it's easier on his body. He says, using the 10 1/8 pin placement allows him to use less aggressive equipment and still carry. Seems plausible(?).
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by MegaMav »

Nord wrote: What I want is to find a coach who is super familiar with Vintage Full Rollers, who can look at me and immediately know what I need to do to optimize my style.
Since mostly all coaches are concerned only with the modern game and modern way of bowling, they would likely not be able to provide any advice for a 1930's style bowler.
If you know an old dog that remembers the old days and can help a fellow old dog, then that is the guy I want to see.

That is what MegaMav is trying to help me with.

Maybe the ball choices and layout choices I have made all suck and that is holding me back.
Maybe how I play the lanes also sucks and is holding me back.
Those are the things I need someone who really knows and understands to tell me.
Nord,

You have to understand that the game played today is NOT optimal for full rollers.
The POPULAR equipment is mostly aggressive and wants to read the middle of the lane.
Your release, with zero tilt has less inertia to it, so those aggressive covers want to read the lane immediately and slow down the already slow ball you throw and roll it forward.
What im trying to do here is show you there is some margin for error out there and give you a ball motion to expose that, but in order to do that you need to give me at least a marginal improvement in your release to get the ball down the lane better with better projection.

If you want to full roll it, im fine with that, but you cannot knuckle it, no ball is going to help you in that case. You gotta give me a little something more, im not asking for much, and it will not impart any extra force on your arm.

Show me a video of your fine grit Rack Attack with its low flare layout on it in open play.
I can base a layout decision on that balls motion.
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