Help Nord Score On House Shots

You can post any bowling related topics here.

Moderator: Moderators

Locked
User avatar
Nord
Member
Member
Posts: 772
Joined: September 8th, 2012, 9:12 am
THS Average: 180
Speed: 12-14 mph at Foul Line
Rev Rate: 120
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 90
Heavy Oil Ball: Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Poison
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick True Motion

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

TomaHawk wrote:I think, the earlier criticism of your PSO in this thread was a little premature. He obviously listens and is totally aware of the intricacies of surface preparation.
Yes, my PSO's name is Teddy.
He runs the pro shop in Kearny Mesa Bowl and has been patiently and supportively helping me with all my experimentations over the years.
He does all my work for me.
I can bring him any idea, layout, method of finishing a ball and he will try it for me.
He was also a real great bowler, but like I said before, he stopped bowling to raise a family and works his shop full time alone to make ends meet.
He is there 6 days a week now, 8 hours a day.
Looking at him you would think he is in his early 20's, but I think he probably in his thirties.
A very slim lefty.
Several 300 games and many honor scores.
He is like a bartender, he listens to all his customers issues and gives them the best advice that he can.
Very friendly.
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 145
Ball speed: 13 mph at launch
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 269 bowled with Pitch Black.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.
User avatar
MeNoRevs
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 305
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 11:28 pm
THS Average: 120
Positive Axis Point: 5 3/4 x 1 ^
Preferred Company: I prefer them all
Location: Southern Maryland

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by MeNoRevs »

This thread has become a mess. Everything contradicts everything. How can this be helpful to Nord? Does he even want help?

Some are trying to help with his physical game, some say dont change. Some ask to have someone look at his span, some say its okay. Some say to move in where the oil is with resin, some say, just play straight.
Arkansas
BCU Graduate Layouts
BCU Graduate Layouts
Posts: 477
Joined: January 24th, 2012, 11:02 pm
Positive Axis Point: 4 1/2 Left x 3/4 Up
Speed: 18.5 off Hand
Rev Rate: 350
Axis Tilt: 17
Axis Rotation: 55
Heavy Oil Ball: Guru Mighty
Medium Oil Ball: Guru
Light Oil Ball: Torrid Affair
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Arkansas »

MeNoRevs wrote:This thread has become a mess. Everything contradicts everything. How can this be helpful to Nord? Does he even want help?

Some are trying to help with his physical game, some say dont change. Some ask to have someone look at his span, some say its okay. Some say to move in where the oil is with resin, some say, just play straight.
He's playing a bounded game within the game of bowling in which speed and revs are bad and accuracy is the dominant factor. With this in mind, his basic goal seems to be "how can I consistently score on house shots making only equipment changes and not moving more than 5 boards in either direction?" With the caveat that reactive resin bowling balls are "cheater balls" and the game was better back when his style of bowling was dominant. He's an extreme conservative, at least in bowling terms.

Several people want to convince him to move to the modern game, but that is outside the basic rules of the game he's playing. It's like trying to convince rugby player to play American football. The field is similar and the ball is similar, and a lot of people have fun doing it, but it's not the game the rugby players want to play.

The remaining people are working with the bounds Nord has set up and are either trying to convince him to use the oil pattern to his advantage, a la 44boyd, or encouraging him to stick to his A game and make equipment changes to suit it, a la Tomahawk.

It's almost like there are different schools of thought, aka opinions. Nord is obviously going to go with the option that best suits his personality, confirms his cognitive biases, and requires the least amount of physical and mental adaptation. In other words, everyone not named Tomahawk seems to be wasting their time on this endeavor to help Nord score on house shots.
James Talley
User avatar
MeNoRevs
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 305
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 11:28 pm
THS Average: 120
Positive Axis Point: 5 3/4 x 1 ^
Preferred Company: I prefer them all
Location: Southern Maryland

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by MeNoRevs »

Arkansas wrote: He's playing a bounded game within the game of bowling in which speed and revs are bad and accuracy is the dominant factor. With this in mind, his basic goal seems to be "how can I consistently score on house shots making only equipment changes and not moving more than 5 boards in either direction?" With the caveat that reactive resin bowling balls are "cheater balls" and the game was better back when his style of bowling was dominant. He's an extreme conservative, at least in bowling terms.

Several people want to convince him to move to the modern game, but that is outside the basic rules of the game he's playing. It's like trying to convince rugby player to play American football. The field is similar and the ball is similar, and a lot of people have fun doing it, but it's not the game the rugby players want to play.

The remaining people are working with the bounds Nord has set up and are either trying to convince him to use the oil pattern to his advantage, a la 44boyd, or encouraging him to stick to his A game and make equipment changes to suit it, a la Tomahawk.

It's almost like there are different schools of thought, aka opinions. Nord is obviously going to go with the option that best suits his personality, confirms his cognitive biases, and requires the least amount of physical and mental adaptation. In other words, everyone not named Tomahawk seems to be wasting their time on this endeavor to help Nord score on house shots.
Change is hard, especially the older you get. But if he enjoys bowling the way he does now, it brings him happiness, and does not cause any pain, please keep doing it that way.

But if trying to get better is the goal, then he will need to let go and trust what some of the people are trying to say. Hell maybe even look up a reputable coach. Words on an internet forum can only do so much for the physical game.
User avatar
imagonman
Member
Member
Posts: 126
Joined: January 21st, 2017, 5:18 pm
Preferred Company: Brunswick
Location: Cleveland Ohio

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by imagonman »

MeNoRevs wrote:This thread has become a mess. Everything contradicts everything. How can this be helpful to Nord? Does he even want help?

Some are trying to help with his physical game, some say dont change. Some ask to have someone look at his span, some say its okay. Some say to move in where the oil is with resin, some say, just play straight.
Last nite I was thinking the same thing! WHAT are we accomplishing here anyway? I think this 'horse' has been beaten enough. Going on & on ad-naseum is like hitting one's self in the face /an axe! What more can possibly be said on this after 140+ posts here..............??
User avatar
Nord
Member
Member
Posts: 772
Joined: September 8th, 2012, 9:12 am
THS Average: 180
Speed: 12-14 mph at Foul Line
Rev Rate: 120
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 90
Heavy Oil Ball: Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Poison
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick True Motion

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

imagonman wrote:
Last nite I was thinking the same thing! WHAT are we accomplishing here anyway? I think this 'horse' has been beaten enough. Going on & on ad-naseum is like hitting one's self in the face /an axe! What more can possibly be said on this after 140+ posts here..............??
I disagree.
I have learned quite a lot about the game and technique and adjustments from you all.
It has been very valuable to me and is helping me.

Let me put the scenario this way: Imagine you time teleported Ned Day from 1936 to 2018.
He is a very accomplished Full Roller (78 perfect games) who uses a 1930's style of bowling.
He wants to know what he needs to do on the current lanes and patterns to optimize his game and be able to score well and succeed.

One school of thought says: "We have to change everything about how you bowl Ned and make you like modern bowlers of today or you will always fail, be frustrated and overall not be a good bowler anymore."

Another school of thought says: "No, we don't have to change you Ned, you are a fine bowler. But we need to optimize your style for the modern game by understanding the proper types of balls and lines you must play to achieve your best success. If after we have done all those things you are still disappointed in your performance, or results, then your style may need to change to get you to the level you used to enjoy in the 1930's with rubber balls and shellac lanes."

I would like to explore the first, by making me better at what I already do by teaching me the correct way for me to play the lanes and the correct types of balls and layouts to use to optimize the 1930's Full Roller Nord style for today.

If this means reactive balls, then so be it, my prejudice of modern tech must be put aside.
As much as I would like to see a return to the Vintage game, the lanes of today will not allow that and so I must use what works on these lanes the same way in the 1930's they used what worked on those lanes.

I already had a terrible time and low success using the wrong ball for the condition at Kearny and great success using the right ball the next day at Parkway.
I did not change my whole style, or way of playing the lanes between Sunday and Monday.
The only difference was, a different level of oil on the lanes and the right ball for that oil amount.
That was the difference between a 139 with 5 opens in a row at Kearny and a 216 clean game at Parkway.

If I am properly instructed in correct ball types that are best for my game and the different lane volumes and the proper way I should be making adjustments on the lanes and when to change balls, then I can see how my averages in the three houses change over this season.
If at the end of this season I suck and am frustrated and realize it just isn't working, then change in style must be implemented if I want to improve as a bowler.

Doesn't this seem like a reasonable course of action?

As a goal, the highest finishing average I have ever had in any league up to this point has been 176.
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 145
Ball speed: 13 mph at launch
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 269 bowled with Pitch Black.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.
User avatar
MeNoRevs
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 305
Joined: January 19th, 2010, 11:28 pm
THS Average: 120
Positive Axis Point: 5 3/4 x 1 ^
Preferred Company: I prefer them all
Location: Southern Maryland

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by MeNoRevs »

Nord wrote: I disagree.
I have learned quite a lot about the game and technique and adjustments from you all.
It has been very valuable to me and is helping me.

Let me put the scenario this way: Imagine you time teleported Ned Day from 1936 to 2018.
He is a very accomplished Full Roller (78 perfect games) who uses a 1930's style of bowling.
He wants to know what he needs to do on the current lanes and patterns to optimize his game and be able to score well and succeed.

One school of thought says: "We have to change everything about how you bowl Ned and make you like modern bowlers of today or you will always fail, be frustrated and overall not be a good bowler anymore."

Another school of thought says: "No, we don't have to change you Ned, you are a fine bowler. But we need to optimize your style for the modern game by understanding the proper types of balls and lines you must play to achieve your best success. If after we have done all those things you are still disappointed in your performance, or results, then your style may need to change to get you to the level you used to enjoy in the 1930's with rubber balls and shellac lanes."

I would like to explore the first, by making me better at what I already do by teaching me the correct way for me to play the lanes and the correct types of balls and layouts to use to optimize the 1930's Full Roller Nord style for today.

If this means reactive balls, then so be it, my prejudice of modern tech must be put aside.
As much as I would like to see a return to the Vintage game, the lanes of today will not allow that and so I must use what works on these lanes the same way in the 1930's they used what worked on those lanes.

I already had a terrible time and low success using the wrong ball for the condition at Kearny and great success using the right ball the next day at Parkway.
I did not change my whole style, or way of playing the lanes between Sunday and Monday.
The only difference was, a different level of oil on the lanes and the right ball for that oil amount.
That was the difference between a 139 with 5 opens in a row at Kearny and a 216 clean game at Parkway.

If I am properly instructed in correct ball types that are best for my game and the different lane volumes and the proper way I should be making adjustments on the lanes and when to change balls, then I can see how my averages in the three houses change over this season.
If at the end of this season I suck and am frustrated and realize it just isn't working, then change in style must be implemented if I want to improve as a bowler.

Doesn't this seem like a reasonable course of action?

As a goal, the highest finishing average I have ever had in any league up to this point has been 176.
Why are you so stuck in throwing it like this? Nostalgia? To be different? I would love to do a word count on how many times you have mentioned in your own threads outside of this one "full roller" and "urethane".
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TomaHawk »

The reference to Ned Day resonates in my mind. The person who instructed me as a kid, continuously referenced Ned. Everything had to be smooth as silk. A dance with a ball in your hand.

I never met Ned, but I did have a chance to meet and talk with Joe Norris, a bowling legend, and also a full roller. When I was a kid, I subbed a few nights on the Stroh's team. They were all great bowlers and full rollers as well.

I was not, and never have been a full roller. It's amazing, all of those guys even talked to me. Must have been, plain 'ole curiosity.

If people would look back at my posts, it would become obvious (maybe not to some), I did not recommend Nord's particular type of grip, nor his release technique. What I did was formulate a plan, that would effectively work for Nord, based on all of the information he so eloquently provided.

My experience as an advanced bowler, instructor, and coach allows me to pull from a vast amount of information. That information is not one dimensional. I am not going to try and create a mini-me.

Let's put it this way, what information could I give any person who might not bowl tomorrow, but wants to be the best they can be today?

I like to fit things into that time frame.
TonyPR
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1386
Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: San Juan, PR

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TonyPR »

Did people in the 1930’s bowl at 10 mph with 90 degrees axis rotation? Honest question, I was born in 1977.
Silver Level Coach
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TomaHawk »

TonyPR wrote:Did people in the 1930’s bowl at 10 mph with 90 degrees axis rotation? Honest question, I was born in 1977.
I'm not familiar with the 30's, but full rollers seemed to dominate the bowling world in 50's, 60's, and early 70's. Even that era was before my time. The target speed was around 16mph. Back then, people relied mostly on a soft touch. People have to realize, hardly anyone stripped / cleaned the lanes back then.
User avatar
Nord
Member
Member
Posts: 772
Joined: September 8th, 2012, 9:12 am
THS Average: 180
Speed: 12-14 mph at Foul Line
Rev Rate: 120
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 90
Heavy Oil Ball: Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Poison
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick True Motion

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

TonyPR wrote:Did people in the 1930’s bowl at 10 mph with 90 degrees axis rotation? Honest question, I was born in 1977.
The only reference I have for my ball speed is what the lanes say when the ball crosses the speed meter at the pins.
There is great variation in that meter.
If I roll the ball from the outside, I can get speeds measuring as low as 9.93 mph.
But when I roll the same exact ball for a 7 pin or 10 pin, the meter will say anywhere from 11.30 mph to 12.50 mph.
So I assume that the ball off my hand is between 13 and 14 mph.
Billy Hardwick had slow speed too, not as slow as me, but way slower than any other pro bowler of that day and way, way slower than the high speed, high rev, bowlers of today.
Sometimes when I am watching women's matches on xtra frame (on youtube) I will see the speed meters saying 12-13 mph for them.
So there are top pros that aren't all winging the ball.

So I roll slow.
As a coach you can either change me to roll faster, which may decrease accuracy, or injure me, or you can work with that slow speed and advise me on how best to optimize that slower speed game.

Some here are trying to help me become better at what I do and others are saying what I do is totally wrong and until I change my whole game to be like everyone else in the modern game, I might as well forget ever hoping to improve.
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 145
Ball speed: 13 mph at launch
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 269 bowled with Pitch Black.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TomaHawk »

Nord, did you know, the FBI is the most dishonest organization in the history of America?

I pretty sure, they're not fretting about comments concerning who and what they are ;)
User avatar
Nord
Member
Member
Posts: 772
Joined: September 8th, 2012, 9:12 am
THS Average: 180
Speed: 12-14 mph at Foul Line
Rev Rate: 120
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 90
Heavy Oil Ball: Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Poison
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick True Motion

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

TomaHawk wrote:The reference to Ned Day resonates in my mind. The person who instructed me as a kid, continuously referenced Ned. Everything had to be smooth as silk. A dance with a ball in your hand.

I never met Ned, but I did have a chance to meet and talk with Joe Norris, a bowling legend, and also a full roller. When I was a kid, I subbed a few nights on the Stroh's team. They were all great bowlers and full rollers as well.

I was not, and never have been a full roller. It's amazing, all of those guys even talked to me. Must have been, plain 'ole curiosity.

If people would look back at my posts, it would become obvious (maybe not to some), I did not recommend Nord's particular type of grip, nor his release technique. What I did was formulate a plan, that would effectively work for Nord, based on all of the information he so eloquently provided.

My experience as an advanced bowler, instructor, and coach allows me to pull from a vast amount of information. That information is not one dimensional. I am not going to try and create a mini-me.

Let's put it this way, what information could I give any person who might not bowl tomorrow, but wants to be the best they can be today?

I like to fit things into that time frame.
My best friend, when he was 16 years old, bowled on the same league team as Joe Norris.
They bowled together at the lanes I had the trouble with this last Sunday, Kearny Mesa Bowl.
They even have a Joe Norris league there to this day.
Kearny was Joe's home lanes.
My friend was not a good bowler, only had like a 120 average, used a Black Beauty rubber ball.
One day he asked Joe if he would show him how to be a better bowler.
Joe gave him the hard stare and then told him:
"I will only agree to teach you if you make a 100% commitment to me and learning the game.
For the first two weeks you will not even have a ball in your hand.
Then, when you have proven to me that you have developed correct timing and control, only then will you be allowed to hold a ball in your hand.
You will practice 3 hours a day and do everything I tell you.
Do you understand?"
My friend was shocked and said: "I just wanted a few tips is all."
He said Joe smiled and they left it at that.
But later, after a few weeks, Joe did give him some pointers and during the league position round my friend bowled a 252!
His average was still only around 130 but this allowed them to win the championship.
He even bowled a higher game than Joe and was quick to tell him: "I beat you Joe!"
He told me Joe said: "On any given day, anyone can beat anyone, that is why bowling is a game of averages."
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 145
Ball speed: 13 mph at launch
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 269 bowled with Pitch Black.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.
TonyPR
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 1386
Joined: December 14th, 2014, 3:08 am
Preferred Company: Radical
Location: San Juan, PR

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TonyPR »

As I said before there is no reason why you can’t roll it at 13-14 mph with accuracy and without injuring yourself or at least use less axis rotation... well yes there is, the fact that you don’t want to or believe you can’t. As a coach I give the best advice I can give and I also get to choose who I coach so I won’t bother you anymore with my nonsense, one can take the camel to the oasis but one cannot make it drink. Hope someday you realize it’s the fletcher not the arrow. Good luck.
Silver Level Coach
Kegel KCMP1 and KCMP2 Completed /Approved Exam
Kegel KCMP3 Completed
Kegel Certified Pro Shop Operator
Free agent
TomaHawk
Pro Shop
Pro Shop
Posts: 587
Joined: July 19th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TomaHawk »

TonyPR wrote:As I said before there is no reason why you can’t roll it at 13-14 mph with accuracy and without injuring yourself or at least use less axis rotation... well yes there is, the fact that you don’t want to or believe you can’t. As a coach I give the best advice I can give and I also get to choose who I coach so I won’t bother you anymore with my nonsense, one can take the camel to the oasis but one cannot make it drink. Hope someday you realize it’s the fletcher not the arrow. Good luck.
And, there lies one of the main issues with the so called "modern game".

You know what people said about my game, which was the beginning of what is now known as the modern game? He must leave a lot of nasty splits, he probably can't make spares, what about when the lanes are dry, bet he can't make a ten pin, on and on and on and on. To me, it just meant, people are easily confused, no matter what their level of expertise.

In fact, Harry "Tiger" Smith was standing behind me at a Team USA event and utterd: "Wow, that sure is pretty!" Of course, it was tongue and cheek. My first night on the Stroh's team, Harry Campbell turned to another member of the team and asked: "So, whaddya think?" Reply: "It sure is exciting to watch" with a slight hint of degradation in his voice. I proceeded to roll 730+, led all bowlers in that rock pile of a bowling center.

See, that's the opposite end of the spectrum from where we are in this conversation with Nord.

The difference between me and everyone else, whether it is on the internet or in the shop, I respect the person. Always. I have had a wonderful life in the bowling industry (only the injury mentioned earlier prevented any possibility of national recognition, maybe, nothing is for sure). But, I look at it this way, God had the last word.

All of my life, I was a pretty good athlete. It didn't matter whether if was ball, a club, a bat, or a racquet, sports just came naturally to me. I have also believed, the best of the best skilled athletes are not bowlers. Not because they can't, but because there is no money. There is no money because someone chooses to degrade another because their technique does not embody the "Holy Grail" of what a bowler should look like now.

Here's what totally irks me, there is a total lack of respect for people who came before us. Golf embraces Palmer, baseball embraces Ruth, it goes on. Bowling? If someone mentions a foregone personality: "well their style would never be capable of competing in today's bowling environment".

Nord is studious and is realistic enough to know, he has physical limitations. But, in reading his posts, it's apparent, he absolutely enjoys the entire bowling experience. I think it is fantastic!

Anyone want to play tennis? I'm willing to bet, most people here would barely get to a ball, let alone return it. And talk about looking bad? It will be pretty obvious, real quick, when ya swing the racquet and come up with air.

I'm sure Nord would be more than happy to apply a little dose of humility.
Last edited by TomaHawk on May 24th, 2018, 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
JJakobsen
Certified Coach
Certified Coach
Posts: 283
Joined: March 10th, 2013, 9:59 pm
Sport Average: 180
Positive Axis Point: 3 1/2 right, 1 1/2 up
Speed: 15.5 downlane
Rev Rate: 450
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 30
Heavy Oil Ball: Storm Marvel Pearl
Medium Oil Ball: Brunswick Inferno
Light Oil Ball: Storm Timeless
Preferred Company: 900 Global
Location: Svolvær, Lofoten, Norway

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by JJakobsen »

TomaHawk wrote:
And, there lies one of the main issues with the so called "modern game".

You know what people said about my game, which was the beginning of what is now known as the modern game? He must leave a lot of nasty splits, he probably can't make spares, what about when the lanes are dry, bet he can't make a ten pin, on and on and on and on. To me, it just meant, people are easily confused, no matter what their level of expertise.

In fact, Harry "Tiger" Smith was standing behind me at a Team USA event and utterd: "Wow, that sure is pretty!" Of course, it was tongue and cheek. My first night on the Stroh's team, Harry Campbell turned to another member of the team and asked: "So, whaddya think?" Reply: "It sure is exciting to watch" with a slight hint of degradation in his voice. I proceeded to roll 730+, led all bowlers in that rock pile of a bowling center.

See, that's the opposite end of the spectrum from where we are in this conversation with Nord.

The difference between me and everyone else, whether it is on the internet or in the shop, I respect the person. Always. I have had a wonderful life in the bowling industry (only the injury mentioned earlier prevented any possibility of national recognition, maybe, nothing is for sure). But, I look at it this way, God had the last word.

All of my life, I was a pretty good athlete. It didn't matter whether if was ball, a club, a bat, or a racquet, sports just came naturally to me. I have also believed, the best of the best skilled athletes are not bowlers. Not because they can't, but because there is no money. There is no money because someone chooses to degrade another because their technique does not embodied the "Holy Grail" of what a bowler should look like now.

Here's what totally irks me, there is a total lack of respect for people who came before us. Golf embraces Palmer, baseball embraces Ruth, it goes on. Bowling? If someone mentions a foregone personality: "well their style would never be capable of competing in today's bowling environment".

Nord is studious and is realistic enough to know, he has physical limitations. But, in reading his posts, it's apparent, he absolutely enjoys the entire bowling experience. I think it is fantastic!

Anyone want to play tennis? I'm willing to bet, most people here would barely get to a ball, let alone return it. And talk about looking bad? It will be pretty obvious, real quick, when ya swing the racquet and come up with air.

I'm sure Nord would be more than happy to apply a little dose of humility.
Nord is trying to get better milage on a huge V8 with a carburetor than a 2l direct-injected turbodiesel. You can always improve it compared to yourself, but there is a limit. The question for me is: Has he reached that limit? I think so. I do agree you should never throw out everything you know, you should build on what you already know, but some things must go too, above a certain point. Nords issues seems to be because of this.
68.2353°N 14.5636°E is where it happens!
User avatar
Nord
Member
Member
Posts: 772
Joined: September 8th, 2012, 9:12 am
THS Average: 180
Speed: 12-14 mph at Foul Line
Rev Rate: 120
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 90
Heavy Oil Ball: Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Poison
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick True Motion

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

JJakobsen wrote: Nord is trying to get better milage on a huge V8 with a carburetor than a 2l direct-injected turbodiesel. You can always improve it compared to yourself, but there is a limit. The question for me is: Has he reached that limit? I think so. I do agree you should never throw out everything you know, you should build on what you already know, but some things must go too, above a certain point. Nords issues seems to be because of this.
I am not sure I have reached my limit or even explored it correctly.
To use your car analogy, I am in a race with the wrong tires, so I can't push the turns, I have to slow down so much I always am passed.
I am a good driver and should be up with the rest of the pack, my car is good, but my tires are walmart tires and just won't let the car or driver perform.

I think my own reluctance to use modern tech in my game has held back my scoring more than my ball speed, rotation and 1930's full roller style.
I have seen some great bowlers bowl horrible with the wrong ball in their hand.
Don Barrett's 129 with a Pitch Black comes to mind.

When Bjorn Borg, my favorite tennis player retired and years later tried to make a come back, he had the same old wood racket while everyone else had modern cannons.
He was blown off the court.
The tech had changed the game and players were using the tech to great advantage.
I am one of those Bjorn Borg types who was reluctant to change to modern tech.
But, if I can put that aside and use modern tech, then that alone could bring my average up.
I won't like it of course because I don't like tech to do the work for me, but if the lanes won't allow anything else, what choice do I have?

Yes, I do throw slower.
When I was in my twenties, I was a pitcher on a baseball team.
Guess how I pitched?
Knuckleball.
It was always a joy to see a big hitter come up and smile when he saw little old me on the mound.
But when the first 40 mph bobber came floating in and he almost fell down trying to get his bat on it, then I was smiling.
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 145
Ball speed: 13 mph at launch
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 269 bowled with Pitch Black.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.
User avatar
stevespo
Member
Member
Posts: 584
Joined: August 11th, 2014, 8:07 pm
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5.75" x + 3/8"
Speed: 17+ off hand (camera)
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Phaze II, Altered Reality
Medium Oil Ball: IQ Tour Nano, Zen, Phase III
Light Oil Ball: Electrify Pearl

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by stevespo »

Some assumptions. We all love to bowl. We all want to improve. We all have limitations (time, age, money, etc) that are going to restrict the ways we can go about this.

Off the top of my head, these categories jump out. There may be others. I feel it's so important, I've given Spare Shooting it's own category, but it might just be the application of the previous 4.

Equipment - types, surface, layouts, fit, etc
Lane Play - recognizing ball motion and making timely adjustments
Physical Game - improving consistency, power and accuracy
Mental Game - dealing with adversity, staying focused, visualization
Spare Shooting

From here, it's a balancing act. For some people, there is going to be greater return with some than others. This is where a local coach could help to prioritize, sequence and instruct the best way to attack each one.

Asking Nord to develop a "modern power game" will be a real challenge. Asking him to consider more subtle release changes might not be. I personally think Lane Play will have the greatest ROI (given his current physical game) but who knows?

I just hope that whatever he does, he will see some steady improvement and stay curious and open minded.

Steve
16 mph (14-14.5 on monitor), 375 rpm, PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up, AT: 12*, AR: 45*
JohnP
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3432
Joined: January 31st, 2010, 1:04 am
Positive Axis Point: 15 15/16 x 3/16
Speed: 13.5 (Qubica)
Axis Tilt: 13
Axis Rotation: 45
Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by JohnP »

Full rollers were very competitive until accuracy became less important than power. -- JohnP
User avatar
Nord
Member
Member
Posts: 772
Joined: September 8th, 2012, 9:12 am
THS Average: 180
Speed: 12-14 mph at Foul Line
Rev Rate: 120
Axis Tilt: 0
Axis Rotation: 90
Heavy Oil Ball: Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Poison
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick True Motion

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

Quick house shot report from Surf tonight:
Took 3 balls,
Widow Urethane at 500 grit
Purple Hammer at 500 grit
Dark Legend Solid at 4000 grit

The oil machine broke when it got to our pair and they had to replace the roller.
The oil man said the shot will be, well, not sure...
In warm up it was very bad.
I tried all three balls and nothing.
No backend on any of them, but they weren't sparing down the lane like Kearny.
This was something else, they had motion, but no backend reaction, or ability to go through the pins.
Our lanes were definitely messed up by the oil machine breaking.
We believe it oiled the back ends
It was the same for everyone on our pair.
It was super ugly.
My teammate who has a 215 average bowled a 134, 156 and 113.
His ball simply would not roll, it just floated down the lane no matter where he rolled it and it would hit like a marshmallow.
My other partner who has a 162 average bowled a 168, 159 and 130.
Same issues for him.

My situation was of course very different.
With the balls I had, I was in super under/over land.
If I got any of these balls right of second arrow, immediate hook and crossover.
If I got any of them on, or inside of second arrow, spare ball.
I was bowling extremely well tonight, timing and accuracy were wonderful and I could hit any target or any line and trust me, I spent 3 games trying 3 balls all over the lane to see where I could find carry.
I got 5 strikes total in those 3 games.
I made all my spares though and converted the 5-7 and baby split, but got too many other splits and washouts so my scores stayed down.
I even tried going left to right from in the oil, to outside to the dry and bounce it back, but only the urethane balls would come back.
The Dark Legend would just go right and stay there, it could not turn the corner.
But even though the urethanes could come back, the movement was super critical and touchy.
A slight miss right and they would come in too light, but a little miss inside and they would cross over.
However, when the ball did hit high flush, it was still a flat 10, so it wasn't worth throwing it all the way out there to come back, I could easily flat 10 all night if I wanted much easier by just rolling straight up second arrow.

So in the end I bowled a 189, 146 and 168.
Another house shot roller coaster ride.
But I have learned a lot about these three houses.

My look on these lanes:

Kearny: Flood, no real defined hook areas.
Parkway: Medium, very nice hook with Widow and Purple.
Surf: Mountain in middle and nothing on outsides.

So I need to decide what to use for Kearny and Surf.
For Kearny I am thinking the Scorcher and Widow are the only balls I have strong enough to hook in that soup.

My doubles partner, who is also in this league, but on another team, came over to me tonight.
He was 4 pairs over.
He told me he just bowled an Andy Varipapa 300 game!
Wtf?!
6th frame of game 1 through 6th frame of game 2!
12 in a row!
He told me he knows how to play these lanes now, he told me you have to find a ball you can play right up 8 with and you are gold.
He used his Code Black for that.
I need to get where he is on the lane too.
To do that I will need to use weak gear.
My Widow Spare plastic ball sanded to 500, or my Axis drill True Motion at 1000 grit.
Anything else will force me left where there is no hook, I need to go up 8 like my partner.
He and I always have success playing the same lines.
He is 300 rpms, 17mph off his hand, semi-roller, I am 12-13 mph off my hand, 150 rpms full roller.
Yet, we almost always play the lanes the same.
So if he says the sweet spot on Surf is up 8 board, and he proved it with 12 in a row, then I will listen to him!


So that is my Nord House shot report for this week.
Due to the Holidays, there will be no league this Sunday or Monday.
It will just be Surf again next Thursday.
Ok TomaHawk, I will be trying sanded plastic.
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 145
Ball speed: 13 mph at launch
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 269 bowled with Pitch Black.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.
Locked