Help Nord Score On House Shots

[TomaHawk]

Back to the topic, Nord, you would have been great at curling!

[stevespo]

Nord,

All those shots on video looked great to me. It would be useful to see the shots you weren't happy with, because all those shots shaped up nicely with adequate power and good recovery.

You started 22/12 (feet/target), moved 20/11, missed a little right and left a 4-5-7. Good cover! Moved right 23/14, and hit flush again. That last breakpoint was just inside 10. I know you're not used to seeing the ball shape like this, you have an aversion to reactive resin - but there are MANY options that could work well for you.

If the Gladiator is too jumpy or hard to control, I would add a little surface. Try 1000. Perhaps even 500. If it reads too early, lay down some compound (2500) on top of that. This seems to really help clear the front, but still provides a nice midlane. The fact that you can move left, tighten up your angles and carry is a very good sign, IMO.

Do you have a mild mannered symmetric benchmark ball? IQ Tour, etc. That type of ball motion could also be a great compliment to your game. The big asyms may not match up, but there are lots of other options. I'd like to see some video of you rolling urethane, keeping the ball more in the oil.

Steve

[Nord]

Nord,

All those shots on video looked great to me. It would be useful to see the shots you weren't happy with, because all those shots shaped up nicely with adequate power and good recovery.

You started 22/12 (feet/target), moved 20/11, missed a little right and left a 4-5-7. Good cover! Moved right 23/14, and hit flush again. That last breakpoint was just inside 10. I know you're not used to seeing the ball shape like this, you have an aversion to reactive resin - but there are MANY options that could work well for you.

If the Gladiator is too jumpy or hard to control, I would add a little surface. Try 1000. Perhaps even 500. If it reads too early, lay down some compound (2500) on top of that. This seems to really help clear the front, but still provides a nice midlane. The fact that you can move left, tighten up your angles and carry is a very good sign, IMO.

Do you have a mild mannered symmetric benchmark ball? IQ Tour, etc. That type of ball motion could also be a great compliment to your game. The big asyms may not match up, but there are lots of other options. I'd like to see some video of you rolling urethane, keeping the ball more in the oil.

Steve

Thanks for the advice.
The only mild manner symmetric I have is my Rack Attack which I have at 1000 grit.
It has a low flare layout on it and has a shape very much like the Purple Hammer the first 3/4's of the lane, but has a much bigger backend move of course.

The Gladiator was very flippy as I said and I got lots of splits on shots missed left a little.
With the Purple if I missed right a touch the ball would often go high, but with the gladiator it would come in light, while if I missed left with the Purple, it would sit and crush the pocket, but the Gladiator would cross over.

Basically bad release mistakes with the Gladiator were magnified greatly into trouble scenarios, but the same mistakes with the Purple were smoothed out and did not cause an issue and most of the time produced a nice result. Protection from my own inconsistency is something that the right urethane does for me that reactive never seems to do because it has so much jumpiness.
I can take the Gladiator down to 1000 dull to see if it can become less jumpy and more arcing.

Next time I will do a video of my Purple and my Widow and do what you asked for, keep the balls in the oil. Basically I would play between second and third arrows and keep the break point also between second and third arrows. 15-12 or 14-10 or 12-10 or something like that.

Here is a look at the Purple Hammer on the same lane. I shot this right after I finished with the Gladiator. You can see the marked contrast in reaction and ball shape, yet I still tried to push it left to right as you guys said.

[youtube][/youtube]

[Nord]

Thank you for creating a special thread for me!
Sorry I polluted the Olympics thread, things just kind of took off.
I really appreciate all your advice.
Doubles league starts over tomorrow, we took 6th place last season.
I am going to try this season to play the house shot the way you guys have advised.
Push the ball left to right through the oil to a breakpoint in the dry and get it to arc back.
I will work with this through this season and see what my closing average will be.
I will actually be in 3 leagues now, in three different houses, all with wildly different house shots.
Parkway, Kearny and Surf.
So far my average at Parkway and Surf has been very low, only 164 at Parkway and 160 at Surf.
Too many ups and downs trying to play the cliff.
Now with your advice we will see if things improve.

[stevespo]

Yes, please keep us updated.

To me, the Purple Hammer shots that looked the best had a laydown around 14/15, to 12 at the arrows. The ones closer to the 2nd arrow had too much early friction although they did make it back to the pocket. The shots a little left did have some hold.

Transition will be interesting, but you should be able to move left and use the carry down as a hold area. There will always be friction to the right. The Rack Attack will be useful as you move left and need a bit more angle to carry.

Steve

[Nord]

Yes, please keep us updated.

To me, the Purple Hammer shots that looked the best had a laydown around 14/15, to 12 at the arrows. The ones closer to the 2nd arrow had too much early friction although they did make it back to the pocket. The shots a little left did have some hold.

Transition will be interesting, but you should be able to move left and use the carry down as a hold area. There will always be friction to the right. The Rack Attack will be useful as you move left and need a bit more angle to carry.

Steve

Thanks Steve.
I noticed the same, the Purple was stronger and smoother when it was kept in the oil inside second arrow, the 14-12 shot as you pointed out.
Again, the Purple has a very strong coverstock.
Remember it comes out of the box at 2000 grit, that is a pretty high grit when you consider it has an RG of 2.65 and a Diff of only .015. and the flare I am getting is only about 1 1/2 inches.
I currently have it at 1000 grit too.
I will see how it does at Parkway this Monday.
One thing about the Purple that is amazing, the cover is very hard and resistant to lane shine.
After my practice session at Kearny this weekend, the Gladiator and the True Motion had lane track scars all through the palms, but the Purple looked like it just came out of the box.
I will bring the Rack Attack which is also at 1000 grit with a low flare layout, pin at 1 1/2".
Let's see how it goes.

[Nord]

Ok, tried the strategy at Parkway tonight.
Took my Purple and my Rack Attack.
Settled on the Purple as the ball of choice.
You have heard the phrase: "the best laid plans..."
Well that is the way it was tonight.
Any attempt to play inside second arrow, or even on second arrow and push it right was an exercise in failure. No, no, no way.
Parkway puts a flood down!
So both me and my partner, who uses a Code Red, had to move right and put the ball down on 7 or we would get zero grab.
First game I had a 179, then in game two my partner dried up 7 enough that I was starting to get good earlier roll and I scored a 205.
Then in game three 7 dried up fast and my ball was checking early so I moved my target left a half board at a time until I got hold again.
But I became over confident and wanted to get inside second arrow as soon as I could but in retrospect I realize I made a miscalculation, I moved my target to 11 1/2 and had to go straight up 11 1/2.
If I hit it right the Purple would get down and come off hard and ten back.
But if I missed half a board inside then crossover and if i missed half a board right then it would not come back.
I should never have done this and ended up with a one board miss right in the 10th that left me the 1-2-4-10 which I did not convert because the Purple got almost to the 1-2 then hooked fast and hard left and missed the 1, though I got the same washout in the second game, played the same shot and converted it.
Closed with a 157.
So I averaged 180 tonight with the Purple and was above average on all but the last game.
My partner had games of 191, 235 and 200 and he never got off 7, he couldn't.

Now here is the interesting part, one player on the other team is about 70 years old, he throws as slow as me but has more revs, probably 250 rpms.
He was using a reactive ball from 2002 that he said he has never cleaned or resurfaced since he got it.
It looked horrible.
But in game one he was laying it down on 15 out to 10 and back for strikes.
Then in game two he was going 15 to 8 and back and in game three he was going 15 to 5 and back!
He looked like Belmo hooking the lane. It was amazing to watch.
The strikes were brutal and he was getting Belmo messengers all at 11 mph!
He scored a 191 in game 1, a 234 in game 2 and a 234 in game 3 for a 659!
His team blew us away!
He was doing exactly what you guys said should be done to play a house shot.
And he did it so well.
But my partner and I could not even think of doing that, no way, no how, our balls would never ever come back from that deep.
His strike line was like my 10 pin spare line! Lol.

Anyway, could not use the strategy tonight due to too much oil and not enough hand.
Any thoughts on what I could have done differently under these conditions?
My thought was I should have stuck with going up 7 and just moved my feet further left to keep the shot going rather than trying to move my target in and go straighter.
But going left to right from on, or inside second arrow, was simply not an option for me or my partner on these lanes.

[MegaMav]

Time to start considering your equipment choices.
Try an asymmetric with an INT DIFF above .015 next time and get in with him.
Urethane and Rack Attack wont cut it if you're wall banging with 150RPMs.

[pocket710guy]

Time to start considering your equipment choices.
Try an asymmetric with an INT DIFF above .015 next time and get in with him.
Urethane and Rack Attack wont cut it if you're wall banging with 150RPMs.

Would he be better off with a strong asym pin down so he could play up the boards?

[MegaMav]

Would he be better off with a strong asym pin down so he could play up the boards?

No, we are trying to get him to play a house shot in the highest margin of error way.
He's been playing up the boards on the shim his entire life and paying for it in the modern era.
And... hes a full roller and stubborn about changing to a 3/4. Layout options are extremely limited.

[Nord]

Time to start considering your equipment choices.
Try an asymmetric with an INT DIFF above .015 next time and get in with him.
Urethane and Rack Attack won't cut it if you're wall banging with 150RPMs.

I do have a Dark Legend Solid drilled with pin at 3 3/8" and it has an intermediate Diff of .016, but I have used it before at Parkway and I can assure you it will not work inside second arrow, I always have to get right with it, or play up second arrow, or it will just float down the lane and do nothing.
The Pro Shop operator at Parkway told me once that the Dark Legend solid is a pretty weak ball actually and if I wanted a ball that would work for me, I should get something real strong like an IQ Tour Solid.
I also have my Black Widow Urethane but I doubt I could get much left with it though.
The strongest ball I have is my Midnight Scorcher, with that ball at 600 Scotch-Brite I can move left, but I can't push it right far and get it to come back, maybe a 12-10 shot or a 11-9.
It is strong, but not angular.
The Gladiator is the only ball that I have that can flip.
I took it down to 1000 grit to try and smooth out the snap, but have not tried it yet.
The day I did the video of the Gladiator and Purple at Kearny, the lanes were broken down from the Teen competition that happens every saturday in the morning, so there is a lot of free hook there that I don't get at Parkway on the fresh.
Basically, with the volume of oil that they put down at Parkway, I don't think I have any ball that can go from inside second arrow to outside second arrow and come back.
I just don't have the hand to make a ball flip like that.
My partner is a very good bowler.
He has 300 rpms and throws on average 15.50 mph at the pins, probably 17.5 off his hand.
He has a Code Red, a Code Black and an Alpha Crux, yet he also must go down and in up second arrow, or right of it, to score at Parkway.
He could never get the ball to hook playing left.
He is a semi-roller but is a stroker and can't swing it.
Yet he has a 215 average on those lanes.
So why would converting to semi-roller let me play inside out?
Are you saying my slow ball speed, combined with potentially more revs, that converting to semi-roller would give me, would make the difference?
Kinda like the old guy had?

Oh, and you mentioned margin of error.
I do not feel I had that with the Gladiator, it was just flipping all over the place and the slightest release mistake would send it who knows where.
When I moved to my urethane balls, then I had control again.
So I am not sure I understand what you mean by "margin of error."
In my case the urethane balls minimized my mistakes, while the reactive Gladiator magnified them.

[TonyPR]

Let’s not forget the 90* axis rotation combined with no tilt and extremely low speed. The other senior rolling at 11 mph with more rpms probably had some tilt and a more average axis rotation maybe between 45 - 60.

[44boyd]

Ok, tried the strategy at Parkway tonight.
Took my Purple and my Rack Attack.
Settled on the Purple as the ball of choice.
You have heard the phrase: "the best laid plans..."
Well that is the way it was tonight.
Any attempt to play inside second arrow, or even on second arrow and push it right was an exercise in failure. No, no, no way.
Parkway puts a flood down!
So both me and my partner, who uses a Code Red, had to move right and put the ball down on 7 or we would get zero grab.
First game I had a 179, then in game two my partner dried up 7 enough that I was starting to get good earlier roll and I scored a 205.
Then in game three 7 dried up fast and my ball was checking early so I moved my target left a half board at a time until I got hold again.
But I became over confident and wanted to get inside second arrow as soon as I could but in retrospect I realize I made a miscalculation, I moved my target to 11 1/2 and had to go straight up 11 1/2.
If I hit it right the Purple would get down and come off hard and ten back.
But if I missed half a board inside then crossover and if i missed half a board right then it would not come back.
I should never have done this and ended up with a one board miss right in the 10th that left me the 1-2-4-10 which I did not convert because the Purple got almost to the 1-2 then hooked fast and hard left and missed the 1, though I got the same washout in the second game, played the same shot and converted it.
Closed with a 157.
So I averaged 180 tonight with the Purple and was above average on all but the last game.
My partner had games of 191, 235 and 200 and he never got off 7, he couldn't.

Now here is the interesting part, one player on the other team is about 70 years old, he throws as slow as me but has more revs, probably 250 rpms.
He was using a reactive ball from 2002 that he said he has never cleaned or resurfaced since he got it.
It looked horrible.
But in game one he was laying it down on 15 out to 10 and back for strikes.
Then in game two he was going 15 to 8 and back and in game three he was going 15 to 5 and back!
He looked like Belmo hooking the lane. It was amazing to watch.
The strikes were brutal and he was getting Belmo messengers all at 11 mph!
He scored a 191 in game 1, a 234 in game 2 and a 234 in game 3 for a 659!
His team blew us away!
He was doing exactly what you guys said should be done to play a house shot.
And he did it so well.
But my partner and I could not even think of doing that, no way, no how, our balls would never ever come back from that deep.
His strike line was like my 10 pin spare line! Lol.

Anyway, could not use the strategy tonight due to too much oil and not enough hand.
Any thoughts on what I could have done differently under these conditions?
My thought was I should have stuck with going up 7 and just moved my feet further left to keep the shot going rather than trying to move my target in and go straighter.
But going left to right from on, or inside second arrow, was simply not an option for me or my partner on these lanes.

So the old man swung the ball out to 5 and shot amazing and you moved into the oil more with your breakpoint? You were probably not getting your ball out to the dry soon enough. Your partner has more speed and probably not enough surface to get his ball to check up. You two are way different, his strategy should not be yours.

[stevespo]

So the old man swung the ball out to 5 and shot amazing and you moved into the oil more with your breakpoint? You were probably not getting your ball out to the dry soon enough. Your partner has more speed and probably not enough surface to get his ball to check up. You two are way different, his strategy should not be yours.

Yes, I agree. Also, you know from experience that Parkway puts down a lot of oil. Why bring 2 of your weakest pieces? They won't provide enough traction in the puddle and won't have time to transition when they eventually find friction.

The guy who was killing it kept moving in and creating more angle. He was moving his feet left and breakpoint further right over time. 10, 8, 5. I experience this all the time. Half board moves and settling into "straight up 11.5" isn't going to create room for error. The "THS benefit" is lost. You may need to move left 2:1, 3:1, and you may have to use a more dynamic ball.

I am not saying these moves are easy, or that it won't take time. It will. You identify very strongly as a full roller/urethane bowler and I understand why you'd be resistant to change that. However, it's restrictive. You feel like it's hindering your ability to score and perform consistently.

If you could improve one aspect of your release, it could make a huge difference. No tilt, low speed, high rotation is a recipe for overreaction, unless you're using urethane in the dry area of the lane (read early, roll out). Add tilt, improve speed, less rotation. Any one of these will help with energy at the pins and controlling over/under.

Steve

[Nord]

Let’s not forget the 90* axis rotation combined with no tilt and extremely low speed. The other senior rolling at 11 mph with more rpms probably had some tilt and a more average axis rotation maybe between 45 - 60.

I took a video of the old guy and took it home to study.
His ball takes 3.20 seconds to reach the pins, pretty much like mine.
He is on the side of the ball through the whole swing and has a 90 degree axis rotation.
He stands very straight at the foul line and lobs the ball about 3 feet into the lane while pulling up on it.
That's how he gets the revs.
He does have tilt, his ball is tilting right to 2 o'clock.

As to my partner and me.
I don't try to play where he does, nor does he try to play where I am.
We warm up and try practice shots and invariably we are right on top of each others line.
His ball speed is 17 mph off the hand and mine is 12 mph.
He has 300 rpms and I 150 or less rpms.
He has about a 2 o'clock tilt on his ball and I have no tilt.
He is a 3/4 roller and I a Full Roller.
He goes down an in because that is the only shot that works for him.
He took is Alpha Crux down to 360 grit and he still has to play second arrow.
He bowled a 300 doing that with that ball.
He is 6'2" about 225 and I am 5'7" a buck 35.
He uses strong Storm Reactive Balls and I use strong urethane balls.
So with all those differences, yet on virtually any house we have bowled on together, we are always right on top of each other.
The only time we are not, is when it is super dry and I move in because I have too.
Like that one day at AMF Eagle lanes when I had my new True Motion with Leverage layout.
I could not even get the ball up the lane no matter how far left I moved my target and he was just fine playing a touch inside second arrow.

I guess I would ask, what is wrong with down and in?
Hasn't Norm, Walter and Liz made a career of doing it?
Why is that the wrong way to play a house shot exactly?

[stevespo]

I guess I would ask, what is wrong with down and in?
Hasn't Norm, Walter and Liz made a career of doing it?
Why is that the wrong way to play a house shot exactly?

Nothing is wrong with down and in - IF you have the ball speed and release characteristics to make it work. Norm, Liz, Walter - HoFers with ball speed and incredible versatility and freakish accuracy! They change speed/tilt/rotation based on condition. Around the side or heavy forward roll, depending.

I averaged 230+ one summer, firing my black Guru up the 8 board and just killing it. My role model was Liz Johnson! Playing the oil line. The problem was, every series was 260, 200, 260, 200, 260... No consistency. I didn't have the ability to adjust. I couldn't play in other houses, because I couldn't move in. Forget sport/challenge shots!

I've spent the last three years becoming far more versatile. It's been difficult and time consuming. I'm as likely now to start targeting 15, and swinging the ball - as I am to go straight up 8. It depends on what I see in practice. I love going straight, but it's not always the best option, and it never lasts long given league traffic around the 2nd arrow.

You have to have options to be successful. This year in 2 leagues my game to game average is 225, 225, 224. My game to game consistency has improved dramatically and I'm a much more reliable teammate - which was my goal. You just have to decide what your goals are and create a realistic path to get there.

Steve

[stevespo]

Why is that the wrong way to play a house shot exactly?

Too much early friction, not enough angle to the pocket, too much over/under.

You can personally make it work by using weak equipment and low flaring layouts, but the problem we are trying to solve is - what to do when that doesn't work?

Steve

[MegaMav]

Nord,

Here is what I want.
Take the Dark Legend Solid, sand it hard by hand with 500 then moderately (but not lightly) with 2000.
Give me 5 shots on video, I dont care if they strike.

Arrows/Breakpoint at 40-42ft.

5/5
15/15
8/5
13/6
18/8 (this one may go 100ft, but thats OK, still have to see)

These shots will show me the slope of the pattern left to right and front to back.
I dont think you are throwing the ball far enough right to kick off the friction hard enough.

[Nord]

Too much early friction, not enough angle to the pocket, too much over/under.

You can personally make it work by using weak equipment and low flaring layouts, but the problem we are trying to solve is - what to do when that doesn't work?

Steve

Got it.
I see a few problems in my game that need correcting besides where I am playing that I think would make me much better.
The biggest problem I have is that I am inconsistent in my release.
Sometimes it gets hung up on my thumb and other times I drop it, both of which cause the ball to have nothing on it and just slide straight.
Other times I get too much rotation on the ball and it hooks too hard for where I am playing.
And sometimes I get it just right and I am fine.
I know deep down, if I could have a consistent release, I would hit my target just right and could score very consistently and probably raise my average quite a bit, if I changed nothing else in my game. I wish I could get the ball off my hand consistently.
I tend to roll slow, but when I use a further push away and faster feet speed I get more speed on the ball.
When I do this I get much better hitting power, but I am far less accurate so I end up spraying the ball, so then I go back to slow to gain the accuracy back, but at a sacrifice of hitting power.
But if nothing else, if I could just get the ball off my hand the same way each time, it would be a huge bonus to me.

[JohnP]

Mav - Remember, Nord marks with his right foot, not left. The numbers you gave him aren't close to what he'll throw. That's why I encouraged him to change his marking foot. -- JohnP