Help Nord Score On House Shots

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TomaHawk
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TomaHawk »

The irony of the Nord saga. In jest, I would comment, show me someone who can throw the ball 20 feet like it's in a box, I'll put him on tour. And, here he is. Mystical powers abound.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

MegaMav wrote: Show me a video of your fine grit Rack Attack with its low flare layout on it in open play.
I can base a layout decision on that ball's motion.
I actually already have two videos of the Rack Attack on my channel.
When I had a fine grit on it (Stock grit) I had to go right at the pocket and the ball would slide a real long way and then flip at the last second.
Then when I took the grit way down, now I could arc it and it would come back.
The ball is even finer than fine now and it doesn't even have a chance of going left to right and back as I found out at Surf.

See these videos below which should give you a pretty good idea of this ball's performance for me.

Rack Attack at stock 500/4000:

[youtube][/youtube]

Rack Attack at 320/500/1000:

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by MegaMav »

Use it and show me an elongated follow thru with it.
Watch your ball motion at 1:15 of the sanded video when you only marginally increase your follow through arc length.
Once you can do that you can play with the surface more to get the length matched up right for that ball.
Follow thru above forehead height.
Arm out, thumb down, fingers out with the balance arm at the line.
That will make a big difference with leverage at the line and down the lane with minimal change to your game.

See my friend Liz Kuhlkin below, she does it better than most when shes sharp.

These are small things that dont involve your tendon issue, you should be able to do them without pain.
No grabbing, no pulling of the ball. Roll it off your hand.
This is practice, this is progress.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by RobMautner »

You describe yourself as a 1930's style bowler using a traditional grip, throwing a full-roller at 10 mph, yet you are looking for a modern ball reaction AND a modern average. You are afraid of what a qualified coach may say, so you don't talk to any. It seems to me that with a 175 average, you would have been very near to a professional level in the 1930's. For your own peace of mind, you either need to step up and stop being afraid, or learn to accept that you are a very, very good bowler considering your limitations both in terms of your physical game, and your fear of what might happen if you try to change it.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by elgavachon »

The sanded ball video is a much better release (in my opinion). The ball on the top video almost appears to be rolling backwards. The sanded ball releases you are rolling the ball forward more. I think that is what people are telling you to do when they say to get rid of too much rotation. looks like you will master that without hurting yourself. The forward motion off your hand seems to give you a lot more projection down the lane.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TonyPR »

Has access to none other than Mark Baker, is not willing to take his advice... I am outta here!
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by JohnP »

What I want is to find a coach who is super familiar with Vintage Full Rollers, who can look at me and immediately know what I need to do to optimize my style.
In the late 60's & early 70's I bowled with several very good, but not professional level, vintage full rollers. They all had 15 - 17 mph speed (my estimate, no speed monitors back then) and considerably higher revs than you do. They all used fingertip fits and less axis rotation than you do. The only things they had in common with you is that their track ran between the thumb and finger holes and they were very accurate. Their averages were in the same range as the better semi-rollers. This was on lacquer and early urethane finished lanes using rubber and plastic balls. -- JohnP
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

MegaMav wrote:Use it and show me an elongated follow thru with it.
Watch your ball motion at 1:15 of the sanded video when you only marginally increase your follow through arc length.
Once you can do that you can play with the surface more to get the length matched up right for that ball.
Follow thru above forehead height.
Arm out, thumb down, fingers out with the balance arm at the line.
That will make a big difference with leverage at the line and down the lane with minimal change to your game.

See my friend Liz Kuhlkin below, she does it better than most when shes sharp.

These are small things that dont involve your tendon issue, you should be able to do them without pain.
No grabbing, no pulling of the ball. Roll it off your hand.
This is practice, this is progress.
For awhile I started experimenting with putting the balance arm out to the left, like I see the girls do in P-League and having a more extended follow through.
It did not feel bad, but I noticed a significant decrease in accuracy and consistency.
I worked with it for a couple of months and got into a slump where suddenly I was bowling like crap.
I went back to my old way and within a short time my accuracy and consistency came back.
However, I did take a video of me using the arm out more follow through style.

Check it out here:

[youtube][/youtube]
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 145
Ball speed: 13 mph at launch
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 269 bowled with Pitch Black.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

JohnP wrote:
In the late 60's & early 70's I bowled with several very good, but not professional level, vintage full rollers. They all had 15 - 17 mph speed (my estimate, no speed monitors back then) and considerably higher revs than you do. They all used fingertip fits and less axis rotation than you do. The only things they had in common with you is that their track ran between the thumb and finger holes and they were very accurate. Their averages were in the same range as the better semi-rollers. This was on lacquer and early urethane finished lanes using rubber and plastic balls. -- JohnP
Interesting.
I have seen a lot of Full Roller's from the past on youtube and you are right, they had good speed and rolled very straight and did not have much axis rotation at all.
In fact Billy Hardwick basically had none, just an end over end ball, though he did roll much slower than most.
So maybe how I bowl is totally my own style?
The Nord Method of attacking the lanes?
The Nordattack?
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TomaHawk »

JohnP wrote:
In the late 60's & early 70's I bowled with several very good, but not professional level, vintage full rollers. They all had 15 - 17 mph speed (my estimate, no speed monitors back then) and considerably higher revs than you do. They all used fingertip fits and less axis rotation than you do. The only things they had in common with you is that their track ran between the thumb and finger holes and they were very accurate. Their averages were in the same range as the better semi-rollers. This was on lacquer and early urethane finished lanes using rubber and plastic balls. -- JohnP
How about Eddie Lubanski? He was a full roller, used a two finger ball into the early 2000's.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

TomaHawk wrote:
How about Eddie Lubanski? He was a full roller, used a two finger ball into the early 2000's.
You mean this Eddie Lubanski, one of the Demigods of the ancient bowling world?

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by 44boyd »

Nord wrote:
For awhile I started experimenting with putting the balance arm out to the left, like I see the girls do in P-League and having a more extended follow through.
It did not feel bad, but I noticed a significant decrease in accuracy and consistency.
I worked with it for a couple of months and got into a slump where suddenly I was bowling like crap.
I went back to my old way and within a short time my accuracy and consistency came back.
However, I did take a video of me using the arm out more follow through style.

Check it out here:

[youtube][/youtube]
What’s your definition of accuracy? You’re averaging 175, that’s a lot of missed spares or being inaccurate in hitting the pocket.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TonyPR »

The best way to measure accuracy is doing ten shots on Specto...
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

44boyd wrote:
What’s your definition of accuracy? You’re averaging 175, that’s a lot of missed spares or being inaccurate in hitting the pocket.
I already answered that question earlier in the thread.
It's not that I miss lots of spares, I don't carry strikes on pocket hits with the balls I currently use.
On a good night I may get a max of 6 or 7 strikes in 3 games and only have 2 or three opens over those three games, usually splits.
I understand now the lower scores are basically my fault.
I have had a personal prejudice against modern reactive balls (cheater balls as I have called them) and by using underpowered balls on modern conditions, I have essentially cut myself off from the strikes I should be getting for how often I hit the pocket.
My love of the vintage game and the giants that came before and my attempt to emulate them by using gear from their era in the modern game has held me back.
I get that now and I am willing to try and join the 21st century without giving up my love of those days.
Here is a typical game for me using one of my standard weak balls:
True Motion Score.png
But...MegaMav is setting me up with a ball, that he kindly is giving me for free, a ball that he has bowled amazingly high scores and series with. This will be my journey to the 21st century and the strikes that should be mine. I am excited about this ball.

Here is bowlingthismonth's summation of the Radical Jackpot that MegMav is sending me:

Strengths
The Jackpot is the epitome of “EZ-Use.” It matches up very nicely for all styles of bowlers on a wide variety of lane conditions.

Weaknesses
With the right layout and coverstock surface prep, there is little the Jackpot can't do. This ball's coverstock is extremely versatile and can handle nearly anything it comes across.

Overall Summary
The Jackpot might be our favorite ball in the Radical line. Its cover and core are a fantastic pairing that gave us multiple angles on each of our test patterns. The Jackpot is money.

And here is the Laneside review of it:

[youtube][/youtube]
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Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 145
Ball speed: 13 mph at launch
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 269 bowled with Pitch Black.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by TomaHawk »

Nord wrote:
You mean this Eddie Lubanski, one of the Demigods of the ancient bowling world?

[youtube][/youtube]
Yes, that Eddie Lubanski. He was an absolutely tremendous guy too!

Nord, the video of Lubanski brought back memories of one of the greatest days in my career as a pro shop owner.

Lubanski was retired, but loved being around the bowling environment. He signed as an instructor at Thunderbowl Lanes. He was only there once a week, bet he wished it could have been more. I owned the pro shop Thunderbowl, so it only stands to reason, Eddie and I became good acquaintances. Eddie was quite a bit older though, didn't matter. We had only one thing in common, we both loved the game and everyone knew it.

It's hard to visualize in today's modern era, some pro shops were places where people gathered to have coffee and talk. Somehow, our shop manages to maintain that sort of environment. The place would be packed with people of various capability, standing around talking, laughing, and you know it's gotta happen, there were a few arguments too.

The pro shop was packed with people, even one of the principal owners of Thunderbowl was there. Lubanski walked through the door holding something in his hand. He came right to the counter and asked if we had a vcr attached to the tv in the shop. We did. He handed me the vcr and with a smile as wide as anyone can imagine said: "Put this tape in the machine". There it was, Eddie on tv!
What a great moment for him and all of us!

It seemed to take awhile, not really certain how long the tape was, but one thing is for certain, nobody said a word, nobody took their eye off the tv either. Off to the side of the shop, Eddie was just standing there, arms crossed, beaming. The whole scene was almost surreal. The tape is rolling, everyone is fixated on the tv.

We had a lot of work to get finished, taking time away from that task to watch tv was not something that time would allow. But, all of sudden, Eddie has the first nine. Who could not watch.

One by one, Lubanski rolled the strike after strike. The pro shop erupted into a roar as Eddie threw the 12th one. Everyone was cheering, smiling, congratulating Eddie, and shaking his hand. Eddie was quite a guy, he was just standing there taking it all in........once again.

Yeah, guess one could say, there is a spot in my heart reserved for the way things used to be.

Thanks Nord!
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by 44boyd »

Nord wrote: I already answered that question earlier in the thread.
It's not that I miss lots of spares, I don't carry strikes on pocket hits with the balls I currently use.
On a good night I may get a max of 6 or 7 strikes in 3 games and only have 2 or three opens over those three games, usually splits.
I understand now the lower scores are basically my fault.
I have had a personal prejudice against modern reactive balls (cheater balls as I have called them) and by using underpowered balls on modern conditions, I have essentially cut myself off from the strikes I should be getting for how often I hit the pocket.
My love of the vintage game and the giants that came before and my attempt to emulate them by using gear from their era in the modern game has held me back.
I get that now and I am willing to try and join the 21st century without giving up my love of those days.
Here is a typical game for me using one of my standard weak balls:
True Motion Score.png
But...MegaMav is setting me up with a ball, that he kindly is giving me for free, a ball that he has bowled amazingly high scores and series with. This will be my journey to the 21st century and the strikes that should be mine. I am excited about this ball.

Here is bowlingthismonth's summation of the Radical Jackpot that MegMav is sending me:

Strengths
The Jackpot is the epitome of “EZ-Use.” It matches up very nicely for all styles of bowlers on a wide variety of lane conditions.

Weaknesses
With the right layout and coverstock surface prep, there is little the Jackpot can't do. This ball's coverstock is extremely versatile and can handle nearly anything it comes across.

Overall Summary
The Jackpot might be our favorite ball in the Radical line. Its cover and core are a fantastic pairing that gave us multiple angles on each of our test patterns. The Jackpot is money.

And here is the Laneside review of it:

[youtube][/youtube]
Well if you watch your purple urethane video, you are throwing all over the 2nd arrow area. A lot of shots are at 6 all the way to 12 at the end of the pattern. So is that your accuracy you keep saying you won’t try something new because you don’t want to lose a 6-board spray?
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Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Poison
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

44boyd wrote: Well if you watch your purple urethane video, you are throwing all over the 2nd arrow area. A lot of shots are at 6 all the way to 12 at the end of the pattern. So is that your accuracy you keep saying you won’t try something new because you don’t want to lose a 6-board spray?
Again, I pointed out earlier that when I went to the longer follow through and balance arm out, I became very inaccurate and got into a bowling slump.
The first Purple video was an example of that.
Once I went back to my old style, I regained my accuracy and consistency, but it took like a month to unlearn the muscle memory that had made me inaccurate.

Here is my most recent video which shows how I bowl today.
My target with this ball is 8 at the arrows:

[youtube][/youtube]
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 145
Ball speed: 13 mph at launch
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 269 bowled with Pitch Black.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by 44boyd »

So you value accuracy over pin action?
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THS Average: 180
Speed: 12-14 mph at Foul Line
Rev Rate: 120
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Axis Rotation: 90
Heavy Oil Ball: Visionary Midnight Scorcher Particle Urethane
Medium Oil Ball: DV8 Poison
Light Oil Ball: Brunswick True Motion

Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by Nord »

44boyd wrote:So you value accuracy over pin action?
Is that actually a serious question, or are you just taking a jab at me?
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 145
Ball speed: 13 mph at launch
Composite Average: 180
High Game: 269 bowled with Pitch Black.
High Series: 683 clean using the DV8 Poison Solid.
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Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots

Post by 44boyd »

Serious question, every single piece of advice that is given, you have an answer for why you don’t/can’t do it. Mental game is huge part of it, if your brain doesn’t think it will work then it never will. Just seeing what your thought process is. You shoot down speed; hand position, changing lines etc..what else is left?
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