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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:47 pm Post Number: #681 Post
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Arkansas wrote:
Nord, what happened to the Guru Supreme? You posted a video on 8/21/16 to your YouTube channel with it.

I gave it away.
I never liked that ball.
It was super snappy and very hard to control.
It actually was similar to the Gladiator in motion.
It really rotated down the lane a lot like it was never going to do anything and when it hit the friction it snapped hard and was all over the place.
I see that with the resin asymmetric's I have tried, they tend to go very, very long and hook very fast and hard.
I don't like that effect, it seems to magnify the over/under effects I see.

The only asymmetric ball I have that rolls very smooth and true is my Black Widow Urethane.
With that ball, the strong core just makes the ball flare a ton and get into a very early roll with little to no backend.
It has even less backend for me than my Purple.
Oh, and the Widow Spare is also asymmetric and rolls hard and early too on drier conditions with little to no backend.

My Midnight Scorcher is a very weak asymmetric ball that I have actually laid out as a symmetric.
It has a very high RG of 2.67 but a super high Diff of .069!
So even though it flares a ton, it is able to get up the lane like a taller core symmetric ball and spread its hook out front to back.

So I see opposing camps on what type of ball reaction is best for me.

You seem to be suggesting very strong, early balls, that give a smooth hook through the lane so that the over/under effects are moderated and I get a more reliable and powerful ball motion at the pins, rather than being under-gunned or watching a late reaction ball do unpredictable things.

While MegaMav is recommending a ball that can get up the lane cleanly and have a strong reaction to the pins at the end of the pattern.
Low flare, tall core, just the right surface adjusted at the lanes with pads, so the hook occurs at the correct spot to get the ball to roll up as it should.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 9:56 pm Post Number: #682 Post
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Quote:
There is not enough rotation to bring it back)


Jim Merrell has already addressed this, but I want to add my $.02 worth. If you mean how fast the ball is rotating, use "rev rate". If you mean axis rotation, use axis rotation. This way everyone will understand. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:36 pm Post Number: #683 Post
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Nord, you're welcomed to try various approaches that have been offered here.
Only you can tell us what works and what doesnt.
I just think going cover dominant with your low tilt is going to read friction in the middle of the lane where you like to play the lane.
Try different approaches and report back.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 10:50 pm Post Number: #684 Post
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Arkansas wrote:
Following your own advice here, viewtopic.php?p=92742#p92742, shouldn't he ball up, add surface, and blend out the transition to the dry?


Different situation, that user didnt disclose his tilt, but im going to assume he had greater than 0 and wasnt a full roller with limited layouts. Its tough with full rollers, I did the best I could to give him a benchmark reaction. Im not saying to throw shine but I am saying finer grits are the way to go. He just cant carry on a flat angle WITH the ball reading at 30 feet. Trying to get the ball down the lane more, but it cant go too far, the ball has to slow down.

Bottom line: His release specs tells us his ball motion depends upon the environment heavily and he has to adapt to that during practice with subtle surface changes.

I do hope he tries other things in this thread to see it for himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2018 11:57 pm Post Number: #685 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Bottom line: His release specs tells us his ball motion depends upon the environment heavily and he has to adapt to that during practice with subtle surface changes.

I do hope he tries other things in this thread to see it for himself.

Perhaps what I can do tomorrow night at Surf is try the extremes you guys are mentioning in practice just to see what reaction I get.

I will try the Jackpot and bring pads to alter its reaction if it seems like it is skidding too long.

Jackpot: Low flare, longer hook cycle, more backend reaction.

And as a total polar opposite, I will bring my Midnight Scorcher Particle urethane, restored to 320 grit with a 3 3/8" high flare layout.

Scorcher: High flare, short hook cycle, heavy arcing roll.

And I will have my Purple on hand in case neither of those will work.

Purple: Low flare pearl urethane, medium hook cycle, modest arc with subtle backend.

This should at least give me and you some information on the polar opposite reactions that were mentioned as being good for me as well as what I call my current benchmark reaction, the Purple Pearl.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 4:22 am Post Number: #686 Post
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Question for MegaMav:

On any future balls using the 45 degree down 1.5" pin length, what top weight and pin length is ideal to start with for this layout?

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 11:34 am Post Number: #687 Post
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Just as an afterthought. Why not take the stronger gladiator up in surface. say like a wet 4000 and see how that goes as well. That should give him a ball up from the polished jackpot since he obviously doesn't want to mess with the polish.

Or take the rack attack and throw a 1000 on it as a ball up from the jackpot. jackpot polished and rack attack at 4000 are way too similiar for him when he is not adapt at reading ball motion and the difference between balls is much less with his lower rev rate in my opinion.

also stop playing straight up the boards when THS don't give you miss room when playing straight up the boards. its obvious the lane topography isn't conducive in playing up the boards where you like to play. either move way right and play the gutter if there is head oil or give it a little belly from lefr of oil lone to right of oil line. if over under move to left and to a stronger ball


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:14 pm Post Number: #688 Post
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Nord wrote:
Question for MegaMav:

On any future balls using the 45 degree down 1.5" pin length, what top weight and pin length is ideal to start with for this layout?


As long as the top weight close to or below 3.0oz, it doesnt matter, if you dont plan on using a balance hole.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 2:15 pm Post Number: #689 Post
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Might as well merge this with the magic orb thread because that’s all it’s become.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:38 pm Post Number: #690 Post
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gunso wrote:
also stop playing straight up the boards when THS don't give you miss room when playing straight up the boards.

And to be clear, what do you consider as correct miss room when playing a line?
Pick a board, any board, and explain what you mean by miss room to either side of that board?
What is your ideal?
What should I be trying to find?
Others have mentioned this before, but the more a thing is said, the more it will stick in my mind.
Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:08 pm Post Number: #691 Post
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From the discussions that have been here it is pretty obvious you are not bowling on a christmas tree house shot but rather a puddle in the middle and nothing on the outside.

If you are playing straight up 8 and the oil line is on the 10 board then easy house pattern isn't helping you at all since all your shot is in the dry and will burn up and hit weak.

if you are playing straight up 10 and the oil line is on the 8th board then you are playing in the oil the whole time and your ball will never get into roll.

If you play straight up 10 and the oil line is on 10 then you have wildly different reactions if you hit outside the oil line or inside the oil line.

if the oil line is on 10 and you are playing 12-8 then misses inside will still hit the dry, just a bit later. misses outside will hit the dry early, but not nearly as early as misses outside when riding on the edge of the oil line.

A weak ten is not a bad hit on a miss with your speed and rev rate. its just a part of the game and doesn't require wild adjustments.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:22 pm Post Number: #692 Post
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gunso wrote:
If you are playing straight up 8 and the oil line is on the 10 board then easy house pattern isn't helping you at all since all your shot is in the dry and will burn up and hit weak.

That is what I see with reactive and especilly strong urethane.
Strong urethane will reveal this as immediate roll out and slow move left across the lane.
I actually purposely do this when making the bucket or 2-4-5.
I will stand right foot on 7 and roll up 8 and the urethane ball will roll out and lope to the bucket and hit it square.
It is a very dependable way to make that spare on virtually every house shot I have bowled on with strong urethane.
But with reactive the effect is differnt, the ball may just go perfectly straight and never come back and look like it is sliding the whole way.
It is an odd effect and hard to determine if it is too much oil or too much friction.
Only weak urethane (2000 grit) seems to do well out there.


if you are playing straight up 10 and the oil line is on the 8th board then you are playing in the oil the whole time and your ball will never get into roll.

Arn't there balls that are designed to be in the oil the whole time and roll?
Wouldn't such a ball be desirable in such a situation?


If you play straight up 10 and the oil line is on 10 then you have wildly different reactions if you hit outside the oil line or inside the oil line.

When this condition presents itself, with strong urethane, if I miss inside I have hold and if I miss outside I get push back.
Is that not the desired reaction?


if the oil line is on 10 and you are playing 12-8 then misses inside will still hit the dry, just a bit later. misses outside will hit the dry early, but not nearly as early as misses outside when riding on the edge of the oil line.

And this is the type of shot you suggest I should be playing with reactive to maximize my scoring?

A weak ten is not a bad hit on a miss with your speed and rev rate. its just a part of the game and doesn't require wild adjustments.

With urethane, a weak 10 is usually either, I threw it too fast and it did not roll early enough, or I hit the pocket too light. Both can be adjusted for with a tiny change if it keeps happening.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:28 am Post Number: #693 Post
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Nord House Shot Report from Surf:

I brought the Jackpot, Midnight Scorcher and Purple Hammer.

I warmup I started with the Scorcher right up second arrow to see what it would do.
Surprisingly it went pretty long and then had a fair amount of backend.
I found it odd and difficult to control.
It had that Asymmetric reaction that I hate, long and snappy.
I then tried the Jackpot.
First shot up 7, just to see.
It went straight as an arrow.
Then I rolled up second arrow and the black tape in the back and cork in the front flew out of the thumbhole and goo got all over my thumb!
I mentioned this before, something is wrong with the chemical makeup of the moulded thumbhole my PSO made and it is causing any tape to become liquified in short order.
I just put new tape and cork in Saturday!

So the Jackpot was out of play, the goo was so gross and soaked in the thumb it would require a long time and lots of chemicals to get it out.
I put the Jackpot back in the bag sadly.
Total B.S.
The shot up second arrow btw did not react, it just made a token move left and bounced off the pocket.

Here is a photo of the underside of the tape and cork.
You can see that all the glue just came off them.

Attachment:
All glue came off tape and cork.JPG


And here is a pic of the thumbhole showing all the goo in there.
It is sticky and oily and will not come out with isopropyl or nail polish remover.
It has turned into a weird sticky goo.

Attachment:
Liquefied glue in thumbhole.JPG


All I had left was my Purple at 500 grit cross sand.
I put right foot on 10 and rolled right up 10.
Powerful strike.
Other lane same thing and so on back and forth for 6 in a row.
I stopped practicing and went and got my drink and play began.

I am second in the line up.
One other player on the other team was using reactive up second arrow.
My first shot hit pocket and flat 10!
Made spare.
Second shot on other lane flat 10!
And this was it for the whole night.
I moved right, left, more inside, more outside, threw faster, slower.
Nothing would work.
The lanes were so super dry and whatever oil I had in practice, was gone right after my 6 in a row.
No kidding.

Every shot rolled out in 10 feet and went dead straight.
A miss right rolled out and stayed right.
A miss left went high.
A perfect shot rolled out and hit the pocket and did nothing.
All night it was all spares of 10s, 7's, 4-7s' and 6-10s and one pocket 7-10.

Normally the Purple will go down and have a nice little backend roll up that tucks in and carries.
Tonight the Purple went perfectly straight, turned over and rolled end over end straight, only maybe two boards at best of right to left movement!
I have never seen a reaction like this before.
It was great for shooting spares and that is all I had tonight.
In three games I had only 5 total strikes, but I was in the pocket all night.
In game 2 I stopped wiping the oil off the ball hoping that maybe it would make the ball skid more and retain some energy.
Nope, did not matter at all.

I eventually I had a crowd watching me because they were equally puzzled by the reaction.
They were rooting for me to get a strike and on one especially high flush shot that we all knew would strike for sure, the 4 just stood there!
Everyone went, "ohhhhhhh!" and started laughing.
We had to laugh at how dumb it was.

My doubles partner who was 5 pairs down came over to watch me and was just shaking his head.
Meanwhile, with his Code Red he shot a 278 in game 2!

It was a big mistake to take the Purple down to 500 grit.
I really underestimated how super strong this coverstock is.
The Purple is actually stronger than the Midnight Scorcher at 320 grit if you can believe that.
The Purple comes out of the box at 500/1000/2000 grit.
I guess there is a reason Hammer did that.
All the pop was gone and it was a straight rolling dead ball.
Even moving left and rolling directly up 13, it still was dead on arrival.
And if I moved right and rolled up 8, it instantly turned over and died.
If I pushed it from 11 to 8 it just died the instant it got right of second arrow and rolled straight for the 6 pin.

I was rolling the ball well and making most of the numerous spares I was presented with.
In the final frame of the 10th in game 3 I was clean but got a washout with a miss right.
So I opened.

I closed the night with a 162, 180 and 174.
Hard won scores since I only had 5 total strikes over those three games.
My teammates did not do better.
One teammate was using his Crux Pearl and it too just went straight with zero backend reaction.
He closed with a 498.
My other teammate was using a Pit Bull and playing 15 to 8 and if he hit it right that ball came back hard and struck.
But his margin was small for the perfect hit.
He closed with a 517.

We lost all points and have lost all points for the last 3 weeks at Surf.
My team was in first and we have plummeted like a rock now.

How many different lane conditions can Surf throw at us?
Each week it is a different condition.
I don't have enough balls to cover them all!

You may say, "Nord, why didn't you use your pads and take the Purple up?"
Because the Purple was dead perfect in warm up, then the oil was gone when play started!

It is so damn annoying.
Every week out, a totally different pattern, volume and reactions for me.
I just don't have the skill and balls to deal with such extreme variations week in and week out.

Tonight I could have used my rubber ball and killed it, or my plastic ball, or my True Motion.
But why would I bring those?
Normally there is far too much oil for those.
This is crazy.

When I got home I immediately hit the Purple heavy with 1000 grit and then lightly with 2000.
Hopefully this restores its pop.
I highly doubt the Jackpot could have done anything, those two shots I made looked dead on arrival.
Maybe the Gladiator, 14 to 10 might have had a reaction for me that could have carried.
I only say this because my teammate was using a much stronger ball, the Pitbull and making that shot sometimes and getting a good hit.
But he has like 400 rpms and throws 16 mph.

So once again, the environment beat me because I had the wrong balls for the pair.
My guess was wrong again...


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:41 am Post Number: #694 Post
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Nord wrote:
And here is a pic of the thumbhole showing all the goo in there.
It is sticky and oily and will not come out with isopropyl or nail polish remover.
It has turned into a weird sticky goo.

I always use Naphtha (available at most paint depts. of home center stores) or Rubber Cement Thinner (available at art or hobby stores) to clean up the gooey residue left by tape, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 7:45 am Post Number: #695 Post
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"So once again, the environment beat me because I had the wrong balls for the pair.
My guess was wrong again..."

How long are you going to keep believing that the ball was the problem? Perhaps you should start bringing twelve balls to league each night and figure out how to try them all before the night is over. How far did you move left at the arrows? At the breakpoint?


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:14 am Post Number: #696 Post
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It may or may not be true in San Diego, but during the summer months, some houses around here experiment with different oils, cleaners, oil patterns, etc. Something as simple as reconditioning and setting the machine back to factory specs is going to create a totally different bowling environment too. All of this is normal maintenance procedure.

Yes, bowling is crazy. It would takes tons of time, money, and extremely knowledgeable people to assure the procedure for maintaining lanes is consistent, week in, week out, day to day, and minute to minute. Some houses now have lane walkers. That means, no one is even going down the lane to see if the application of oil and the cleaning procedure are being carried out properly. Throw in the every changing atmospheric elements which play havoc with topography?

Yes, take all the bowling balls you have. In terms of surface prep, probably best off to leave your favorites alone.

But, leaving them alone is a misnomer. In one roll down the lane, the ball can go from ideal to junk. The lane surface itself changes the surface of the bowling ball. We can't see that either. If a person looks at the surface of their bowling ball under intense lighting, only then they can see the microscopic changes which have taken place as the result of coming in contact with the lane surface and all of the elements in which the ball is subjected to.

Nord, because of your style, your shots are going to provide immediate feedback as to what is going on with the lane. You mentioned, a rubber ball (extinct) or plastic (nobody uses those on their strike shot) might have been better than anything in your bag.

You also mentioned, why bring them?

My question, why not?


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:56 pm Post Number: #697 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
How long are you going to keep believing that the ball was the problem?

As long as I know 100% that the ball was the problem.
I am very familiar with urethane ball motion and the effects of different grits on urethane balls.
The Purple rolled out instantly and went super straight, the straightest I have ever seen it go.

On the fresh, in practice it was killing the pins.
I could hit the pocket anywhere and it would strike.
Like I said 6 in a row.
But the Purple at 500 grit must have tore up the heads and killed the pattern in those practice shots.
There was zero backend reaction thereafter from the Purple.
Right of second arrow was off limits because the Purple would just die instantly and go straight.
Going left of second arrow (in oil) to right of second arrow (out of oil) was a fail as once again, as soon as the Purple hit that dry it died instantly and would not move back left.
I tried straight up 12 and then 13 but it was just as dead there as right up second arrow.
I tried going 13-10 and 12-10 and 11 1/2-10 and same thing.
The Purple at 500 grit was a fail.

The cover stock on this ball is the strongest coverstock ever made on a urethane ball.
I spoke to Mitch Beasley at Ebonite about this.
He said the coverstock on the Purple is the strongest they have ever made, far, far stronger than the Black and stronger even than the Widow.
He said they originally wanted to use the Purple coverstock for the Widow, but with the Gasmask core the ball just died out halfway up the lane.
So they went with a much weaker coverstock pairing with the Widow.

So I did this to myself by taking the Purple down to 500 grit.
That was dumb.

As an example:

I normally convert the 7 pin by standing with right foot on 2 and rolling over second arrow as target.
On a wet house shot, if I miss a board right with the Purple I am still ok, but two boards right and I will miss the pin on the right.
Last night at Surf I made a boo, boo and missed 5 boards right.
Whoops, I figured I would miss the pin.
Nope, the Purple hooked out and loped all the way over and got it!
Now that is a strong ball and dry lane.

And once again it was super hot and humid inside.
No air conditioning.
Only the left side lanes had air and that is where my doubles partner bowled his 278 and 697 series that night.

And remember, it was not just me having this trouble, my own teammates were seeing the same thing.
Like I said, his Crux Pearl would just go straight as an arrow and never hook in the back at all.
Zero backend.
This is a guy that with the same ball a few weeks ago, before the heat wave, bowled a 714 series.

I know if a had a much weaker urethane ball, or plastic, or rubber ball I could have been really good.

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Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 4:30 pm Post Number: #698 Post
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omg.....no air in the middle of summer? In or around San Diego?

No wonder your tape melted. If the atmosphere was barely tolerable in the front of the center, we can only imagine what is what like in backend with the machines running. All the factors which create heat were magnified because the bowling balls never cooled down at any point in time.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 5:06 pm Post Number: #699 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
omg.....no air in the middle of summer? In or around San Diego?

No wonder your tape melted. If the atmosphere was barely tolerable in the front of the center, we can only imagine what is what like in backend with the machines running. All the factors which create heat were magnified because the bowling balls never cooled down at any point in time.

It was definitly really hot and jungle like.
But I don't blame that for the tape as all my other balls are fine.
Since day one this thumbhole was totally different from the others, both in feel and color.
It has an oily texture to it all the time even if I clean it with 91% isopropyl.
What I think happened is when he molded it, he did not put enough of the curing agent in the mix and the hole never dried.
It just stays wet and dissolves all the glue that contacts it.
Basically the thumbhole material leaks into the glue and breaks the glue down.
I am going tonight to get a new thumbhole put in.

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Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri Jul 20, 2018 6:02 pm Post Number: #700 Post
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So last night I had my pads with me.
I could have changed surface on my Purple, but it worked perfectly in practice and once play starts you can't change the surface.

So what do you do when you tune your ball in practice with pads and it works perfectly in practice and when you start play it no longer works?

It seems like you have boxed yourself in.
Isn't it better to just have a lot of balls of differnt surfaces ready?

Take a bowler like Jesper Svensson.
He only uses one ball, the Pitch Black urethane.
But he has a whole arsenal of Pitch Black urethanes at different grits and layouts standing by so he can grab another as he plays and the shot changes.
Isn't that a better strategy?
Obviously I can't have 20 balls and a team of reps working them for me like caddies on a golf course like he does.
But you get the idea.

_________________
Full Roller
Axis Rotation: 90
Axis Tilt: 0
PAP: 6 3/16 x 2 5/8
Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


Last edited by Nord on Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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