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 Post subject: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 8:09 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Just my opinion, but you're trying to play the oil line with the deck stacked against you. Yes, people can do this - but they generally have much more ball speed and a lot of tilt. The speed dominant spinners can kill it.

Your challenges are low ball speed, low revs, full roller (no tilt). The THS oil line is by definition, OVER/UNDER. You're walking along the cliff and small errors are going to be exaggerated because you're not using the pattern as intended. You like sport patterns because the pattern is relatively flat, the gradient is subtle, so treat the THS more like a sport.

Get off the cliff. Open up your angles. Use the oil for hold and friction for hook.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 9:18 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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stevespo wrote:
Get off the cliff. Open up your angles. Use the oil for hold and friction for hook.


Im glad somebody said it.
Use that soft speed to your advantage. Play with touch and stop being afraid of the oil.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 10:50 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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stevespo wrote:
You like sport patterns because the pattern is relatively flat, the gradient is subtle, so treat the THS more like a sport. Get off the cliff. Open up your angles. Use the oil for hold and friction for hook.

Steve

I never thought of it this way.
That is actually kind of a revelation to me.
Can you give me some specific suggestions for a line to play and a break point?
What target at the arrows should I aim for and how far right should I try to bring it back from?

Thank you.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:28 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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I can't give you exact numbers because it will vary based on pattern, house, bowler, equipment, etc.
Essentially it means moving everything (feet, lay down point, break point) left. You'll have to open up and roll (ever so slightly) away from the pocket.

I'm guessing your cliff is roughly a 3-5 board transition from heavy at ~12/13 to fairly dry at ~9/8. Think Kegel Wall St, Easy St, etc. Keep the ball in the oil - left of 10 - and only venture into the dry boards when you want the ball to read and hook. Pretend it's off limits. Otherwise you're just losing energy and fighting the friction.

Attachment:
wall-st.jpg


Start your ball in the heaviest oil (inside of 13) and target 8 at the break point. That might mean 11/12 at the arrows. Edge of left foot around 20. You can try going more up the boards, but it won't have the same advantage of shaping it ever so slightly.

You'll have to adjust to get the ball to the pocket. Standard parallel moves (1:1, 2:2) left or right, or angled moves (2:1, 3:1, feet:target) in order to shape the ball and carry.

I was so fed up with the house shot at one point that I switched to a sanded heavy oil ball and rarely got the break point right of 10. It was amazing to finally feel in control of my own shot, and it created havoc with the other bowlers. It's really just a matter of creating adequate friction to get the ball to transition in the right places.

With your accuracy, ball speed and high rotation I'd think you can successfully make this move.

Steve


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 11:42 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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stevespo wrote:
I can't give you exact numbers because it will vary based on pattern, house, bowler, equipment, etc.
Essentially it means moving everything (feet, lay down point, break point) left. You'll have to open up and roll (ever so slightly) away from the pocket.

I'm guessing your cliff is roughly a 3-5 board transition from heavy at ~12/13 to fairly dry at ~9/8. Think Kegel Wall St, Easy St, etc. Keep the ball in the oil - left of 10 - and only venture into the dry boards when you want the ball to read and hook. Pretend it's off limits. Otherwise you're just losing energy and fighting the over/under.

Attachment:
wall-st.jpg


Start your ball in the heaviest oil (inside of 13) and target 8 at the break point. That might mean 11/12 at the arrows. Edge of left foot around 20. You can try going more up the boards, but it won't have the same advantage of shaping it ever so slightly.

You'll have to adjust to get the ball to the pocket. Standard parallel moves (1:1, 2:2) left or right, or angled moves (2:1, 3:1, feet:target) in order to shape the ball and carry.

I was so fed up with the house shot at one point that I switched to a sanded heavy oil ball and rarely got the break point right of 10. It was amazing to finally feel in control of my own shot, and it created havoc with the other bowlers. It's really just a matter of creating adequate friction to get the ball to transition in the right places.

With your accuracy, ball speed and high rotation I'd think you can successfully make this move.

Steve

Wow, that is really fascinating!
It makes sense now.
The day I bowled my 259 with my rubber ball at Poway, I was crossing 12 at the arrows out to 9 or 8 and it would come back hard.
Had the back 9 and the first in the next game doing this.
I instinctively did this because the lanes were pretty dry and didn't let me go down and in.
It was really a target line accident I stumbled onto without understanding it.

But you are suggesting I actually get a much stronger, smooth ball, maybe my Widow, or Scorcher, or maybe my Gladiator with a lower grit and play a nice soft arc through the oil, maybe 12 to 10 and back, or 11 to 9, or 8 and back.
Then I adjust that line based on the volume conditions of the day and house.

Check out this video and let me know if this is kinda the idea you are talking about:


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:48 am Post Number: #6 Post
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Nord wrote:
I never thought of it this way.
That is actually kind of a revelation to me.
Can you give me some specific suggestions for a line to play and a break point?
What target at the arrows should I aim for and how far right should I try to bring it back from?
Thank you.


http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... House_Shot

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 12:59 am Post Number: #7 Post
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JMerrell wrote:

Wow, I will practice this this weekend!
Thank you, there may be hope for me yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:20 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Nord wrote:
Wow, I will practice this this weekend!
Thank you, there may be hope for me yet.


Remember Nord, if the ball isnt quite making it back to the pocket, move your feet a little left, throw further to the right and stay soft the further you move in. Dont bring smooth balls, but balls harder off the spot to have the maximum area bowling this way. This is the OPPOSITE of what you were doing.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 1:31 am Post Number: #9 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Remember Nord, if the ball isnt quite making it back to the pocket, move your feet a little left, throw further to the right and stay soft the further you move in. Dont bring smooth balls, but balls harder off the spot to have the maximum area bowling this way. This is the OPPOSITE of what you were doing.

Wow, this is weird to me.
Ok, let me make sure I have this right.
Target stays left of second arrow at all times.
Break point should be right of second arrow, 9, 8, 7 depending on the lane.
If ball doesn't make it back, move break point further right and feet further left. (Seems crazy)
Don't use smooth balls like lower grit strong urethane, use flippy balls like reactives with higher grit surfaces?

Also what about playing in the oil the whole time with a smooth strong ball?
Like a 13 to 10 shot, or a 15 to 12 shot?

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 3:31 am Post Number: #10 Post
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Nord wrote:
If ball doesn't make it back, move break point further right and feet further left. (Seems crazy)
Don't use smooth balls like lower grit strong urethane, use flippy balls like reactives with higher grit surfaces?

Also what about playing in the oil the whole time with a smooth strong ball?
Like a 13 to 10 shot, or a 15 to 12 shot?


Increasing your angle through the front will create more hook because the ball encounters friction earlier. THS misses right often go high/Brooklyn, so you want to use that to your advantage. You may find the ideal breakpoint is not on 8, but further right. Hard to say.

Whether to use urethane or reactive remains to be seen. Try both and keep an open mind. I suspect that the urethane won't carry as well because the angle to the pocket won't be great. It really depends on the condition and release characteristics.

High rev players can create enough midlane read and control the breakpoint with shiny equipment because of their rev rate. Speed dominant players will need surface and stay softer with their speed. Balanced players have options if they are versatile.

With your soft speed, low tilt and high rotation you may see too much early traction with a really strong, sanded reactive - but maybe not. Regardless, you'll learn something new and have some things to work on.

Since my speed has softened up and my rev rate has increased, I am using less surface and lower flaring layout - and I can start deeper, targeting 12 to 15 and moving left from there. I couldn't do this when I first got back into bowling. Of course, it depends on the volume of the shot and the type of surface I'm on. Let the reaction dictate the strategy. Don't make assumptions.

Steve

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Last edited by stevespo on Sat May 12, 2018 4:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:15 am Post Number: #11 Post
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stevespo wrote:

12-15?
This confuses me.
You are not going left to right?

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:26 am Post Number: #12 Post
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stevespo wrote:
You like sport patterns because the pattern is relatively flat, the gradient is subtle, so treat the THS more like a sport.
Steve

I have thought a lot about this since you said it.
I used my Grizz at 500 grit on every sport shot we put down at Poway.
I could play down and in on all of them.
The only difference was the starting position.
On the shorter patterns I was further inside with my feet and on the longer patterns further right.
But I was able to target at, or around second arrow, on all of them.
If I hit the line perfect, the ball was like it was on a rail, a perfectly predictable motion to the pocket and a strike.
If I missed inside, overhook and outside less hook.
Perfectly predictable, no B.S. like I see on a house shot.
All the hook was in the back of the lane once the ball exited the pattern.

Here is my thought and tell me if I am way off track.
Since a house shot is oil in between the second arrows, can I treat the house shot like a mini sport shot, as if the lane had the gutters at second arrows?
In other words, play it inside second arrow like it is a flat pattern?
Use a strong, smooth ball like one of my strong urethanes and keep the ball between second and third arrow with soft speed and a gentle arc.

Is this a reasonable way for me to play a house shot?

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:45 am Post Number: #13 Post
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Nord wrote:
I have thought a lot about this since you said it.
I used my Grizz at 500 grit on every sport shot we put down at Poway.
I could play down and in on all of them.
The only difference was the starting position.
On the shorter patterns I was further inside with my feet and on the longer patterns further right.
But I was able to target at, or around second arrow, on all of them.
If I hit the line perfect, the ball was like it was on a rail, a perfectly predictable motion to the pocket and a strike.
If I missed inside, overhook and outside less hook.
Perfectly predictable, no B.S. like I see on a house shot.
All the hook was in the back of the lane once the ball exited the pattern.

Here is my thought and tell me if I am way off track.
Since a house shot is oil in between the second arrows, can I treat the house shot like a mini sport shot, as if the lane had the gutters at second arrows?
In other words, play it inside second arrow like it is a flat pattern?
Use a strong, smooth ball like one of my strong urethanes and keep the ball between second and third arrow with soft speed and a gentle arc.

Is this a reasonable way for me to play a house shot?

You missed this statement from the PDF Jim posted:
Tip of the day – the free friction outside is you real friend, not the abundant amount of oil in the center.

We are looking for miss area that gets you into the pocket (not miss area that has a predictable/readable/ miss).


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 4:46 am Post Number: #14 Post
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Nord wrote:
12-15?
This confuses me.
You are not going left to right?

Probably meant 12-15 out to 10-1


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:04 am Post Number: #15 Post
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Yes, sorry about that. Targeting 12 to 15 with the break point downlane around 10, 8, 6 or so. Left to right.

Nord wrote:
Use a strong, smooth ball like one of my strong urethanes and keep the ball between second and third arrow with soft speed and a gentle arc.


While this is possible, I agree that it's not going to give you the best line to the pocket, or the best carry. Use the friction outside of 10, but with moderation - don't treat it like an all you can eat buffet.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:06 am Post Number: #16 Post
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Final question before I try this:
How far down the lane should the ball exit the oil to the right of second arrow?
One third?
Half way?
Two thirds?

I noticed that Jakob Butturff was playing 15 to 8 and back with his Purple Hammer and bowled a 300 on the Dick Weber pattern.
His ball hit the break point 3/4's of the way down the lane.
Of course he has 500 rpms, but that is kinda what you are suggesting for me on a house shot?
Play through the oil and get the ball to exit the oil at some point and hit a break back point right of second arrow so the friction, that can be my friend, will push the ball back to the pocket.
Stay slow with my speed and smooth so the ball has lots of time to read the lane and not scoot past the break point.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:28 am Post Number: #17 Post
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Nord wrote:
Final question before I try this:
How far down the lane should the ball exit the oil to the right of second arrow?
One third?
Half way?
Two thirds?

Depends on how much oil you want your ball to be in and how much dry. Study the lane play chart in the PDF Jim posted:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... House_Shot

Jim shows 3 different examples. They are labeled L1...L2...L3
Those are 3 different ball paths


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 5:41 am Post Number: #18 Post
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elgavachon wrote:
Depends on how much oil you want your ball to be in and how much dry. Study the lane play chart in the PDF Jim posted:
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... House_Shot

Jim shows 3 different examples. They are labeled L1...L2...L3
Those are 3 different ball paths

Since I am rev challenged, but have slow speed, I would assume somewhere then between L1 and L2 depending on the volume of the lanes?
But I guess I have to experiment with the lane and my balls to see how they do.
The challenging part in doubles league is they only give us 5 min of practice, so we get maybe 4 shots and if they are not good shots, we learn nothing.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 12, 2018 2:30 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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It may be difficult to line up and feel comfortable with a few minutes of practice. I would work on it when I had the time to really experiment with it.

I feel that L1/L2 will be the most productive, and they're not far off from where you were in the Hardwick video, particularly the later shot with the break closer to 8 board.

With this angle change, you control where and when the ball encounters friction. It won't feel nearly as random and uncontrollable.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sun May 13, 2018 3:55 am Post Number: #20 Post
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stevespo wrote:
It may be difficult to line up and feel comfortable with a few minutes of practice. I would work on it when I had the time to really experiment with it.

I feel that L1/L2 will be the most productive, and they're not far off from where you were in the Hardwick video, particularly the later shot with the break closer to 8 board.

With this angle change, you control where and when the ball encounters friction. It won't feel nearly as random and uncontrollable.

Steve

Today I went down to Kearny Mesa lanes to practice the technique you guys recommended.
I took my camera so I could video it.
I took the Visionary Gladiator at stock 2000 grit, the True Motion Leverage at stock 1000 grit and my Purple Hammer that I just plugged the balance hole on and have at 1000 grit.
Of course my main focus was to use modern reactive resin (The Gladiator) and get that angular reaction that you felt I could get if I slow rolled it inside/out.
Let me just say the Gladiator is a super flippy ball for me.
All the reviews say it is a smooth arcing ball, but not for me.
It gets way down there and then just charges back.
It was super hard to control!
If I missed inside, zero hold, it would just take off across the lane, but if I missed outside it had a lot of recovery.
I tried targets at the arrows anywhere from 11 to 14 and breakpoints anywhere from 11 to 7.
I basically played around to see where I could be consistent with the ball.
I really never found a good shot until I moved further left and kept the ball in the oil the whole time.
My target at the arrows was 14 with a break point of 10.
This worked best and the ball had the most energy to snap back and the control was a little better.
You will see this in the last shots of the video below.
I honestly did not like the ball, or the reaction and all the time I felt helpless with it like the ball was just too crazy and not in my control.

Then I tried the same strategy with the True Motion and it was much easier to use and control, but of course my angles had to be more closed down since it didn't have the come back the Gladiator did.
I eventually found 10 to 7 to be the best shot for it.

Then finally I pulled out the Purple Hammer which also has the 3 3/8" pin with Leverage layout.
But, the Purple is a very different kind of beast from the Gladiator and True Motion.
While the Gladiator is an Asymmetric ball with a low RG of 2.51 and a Diff of .044 and the True Motion a symmetric ball also with a low RG of 2.52 and a Diff of .035 the Purple's RG is a super high 2.65 and the Diff a tiny .015!
So even with the Leverage layout, the ball barely flares and its motion is gradual hook through the whole lane with a baby touch of pearl snap in the back.
After the other balls, going to the Purple was a breath of fresh air.
I just loved it and had total control of it and could get it to do anything I wanted with no fear it would surprise me.
All the over/under effects the other balls had for me, were gone with the Purple.
The Purple has a very strong coverstock, don't underestimate how strong the coverstock is on this ball.
As with the first two balls, my goal was to play through the oil out to the dry and back.
With the Purple I found that a tiny left to right produced the best reaction.
My target was 10 with a breakpoint of 9 or 8.
This ball created carry down, so as I bowled on that target, I found I had to move my feet right when the ball labored and after a while the ball would start to hook harder and then I moved my feet back left and kept the target the same.
I basically could do a back and forth with my feet, never changing my target or breakpoint.
If a made a big miss inside the ball would sit and crush the pocket, if I missed outside a little there was some recovery, but a big miss right would not come back.

In summary, I see the value in pushing the ball right from on, or inside second arrow and getting it to push back.
It gives a little more miss room verses just going straight up the boards down and in.
It will take time for me to work with this and understand it.
The Gladiator was a very, very uncomfortable ball for me and just jumped all over the place.
The True Motion Leverage was much better, but still had a tendency to take off on me.
The Purple was gold, a ball that was subtle and protected me and just rolled easy and hard and had amazing carry.

Here is the Gladiator video showing my experiment with the inside out shot:


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