The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

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The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by soupy1957 » May 8th, 2018, 8:41 am

Can anyone tell me the “who, when, where and why” of the two-handed throw?

I didn’t include the “what,” simply because we KNOW what the “what” is, that I’m asking about.

Since the two-handed approach is being used by bowlers in professional competition, I’ll assume that the PBA has ruled on its use, and provided some guidelines for acceptable practices, yes?

I’d particularly like to know about the first time it was seen in competitive play, and how it was reacted to. I’ll bet the running commentary by the Announcers, was colorful!!??
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by JJakobsen » May 8th, 2018, 4:40 pm

The one that popularized it is without a doubt Belmonte, and partly Osku Palermaa. I haven't found anything about it from older times, but I haven't really tried searching, to be fair.

But I can believe that Belmo is pioneering it as a pro, there was a lot of fuzz when he came around and won.
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by 2lefthands » May 9th, 2018, 2:15 am

The first time I saw a two handed bowler was at a PBA tournament in the late 1980's. His name was Chuck Lande. Here's an article by John Jowdy listing his achievements. You'll have to scroll about halfway down the page to read about Lande.

http://www.gobowlingshow.com/default2.a ... age_id=221" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by 2y2 » May 9th, 2018, 2:33 pm

JJakobsen wrote:The one that popularized it is without a doubt Belmonte, and partly Osku Palermaa. I haven't found anything about it from older times, but I haven't really tried searching, to be fair.

But I can believe that Belmo is pioneering it as a pro, there was a lot of fuzz when he came around and won.
Osku Palermaa appeared many years before but he didn´t have the success that belmo did.
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by Dax » May 9th, 2018, 7:13 pm

2lefthands wrote:The first time I saw a two handed bowler was at a PBA tournament in the late 1980's. His name was Chuck Lande. Here's an article by John Jowdy listing his achievements. You'll have to scroll about halfway down the page to read about Lande.

http://www.gobowlingshow.com/default2.a ... age_id=221" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks for the info.

I wasn't aware that Chuck Lande was that impressive.
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by bowl1820 » May 9th, 2018, 9:50 pm

Origin of two handed bowling? It came from little kids. It's one of the ways they rolled the ball.


from years back:
PBA Pro Bowlers Tour : Bo Burton OG 2H Bowling Tips : Before Belmo there was Brendan
[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by Pinbuster » May 9th, 2018, 10:31 pm

While he was one handed, Mike Miller was the first I saw on the PBA using a thumbless release.

He was a very good bowler using his thumb but couldn't generate enough revs so he went to thumbless.
He made several shows and may have one a few titles.

You had to be pretty strong to do it the way he did. I always assumed kids who were rolling two handed figured thunbless was ok and stayed with it.

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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by soupy1957 » May 10th, 2018, 8:12 am

So, in the end, I could spin in circles, and flip the ball around four times, or do whatever dance I wanted, and it wouldn’t be a violation of play. THAT’S pretty much what this all comes down to, eh?!

Just like all of us do eventually, I did a Google search yeaterday, and it seems that there are about three or four “known” styles of ball approach and release styles that have been used over the years.

Ok, so certain “norms” matter, for successful dropping of all the pins (the science of physics), I get that. I just wonder how far we can push the boundaries without unfair advantage, or resistance by the powers that be?!

Has anyone got an example of how the ruling bodies in “Bowling” has stepped in and declared some action, some new style of play, to be unacceptable for recordable competition? My FIRST knee-jerk reaction to the two-handed throw was negative, thinking that if a person was competing, they must perform within more standardized methods.

Suppose a lady bowler, who throws a “standard approach,” with less upper body strength, went up against a fella who was typically a two-handed bowler. Who would YOU expect to win that game??
Oh, I forgot, we don’t allow the men to compete against women in the “Pro” ranks, do we?! (Tongue in cheek).
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by TonyPR » May 10th, 2018, 1:11 pm

There is really no unfair advantage with two handed bowling. The difference is that two handed bowlers keep the non bowling arm on the ball for a longer time than one handed bowlers, they all release the ball with one hand. One may see an advantage in the amount of rpms a two handed bowler generates, they do this by getting their hand way under the ball and keeping a loose wrist, this can also be achieved one handed (see EJ Tacket or Marshall Kent) with the thumb inserted or not. Now as for the ladies I really don’t understand why there are no more two handed female bowlers (I have spoken with two very well known USBC Gold Level coaches who agree). Usually men have a more powerful game than women and two handed bowling would allow women to get this power without having to be big and strong, the two handed approach takes a lot of flexibility and women in general tend to be more flexible than men. I am currently training my 12 yr old daughter to bowl two handed, she’s also a lefty so watch out, lets wait 8 more years and I’ll be telling another story...

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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by flibblesh » May 10th, 2018, 1:31 pm

soupy1957 wrote:So, in the end, I could spin in circles, and flip the ball around four times, or do whatever dance I wanted, and it wouldn’t be a violation of play. THAT’S pretty much what this all comes down to, eh?!
Yes.
USBC wrote:4a. Legal Delivery
A delivery is made when the ball leaves the player’s possession and crosses the foul line into playing
territory. Every delivery counts unless a dead ball is declared. (See Rule 8.) A delivery must be made
entirely by manual means. No device may be incorporated in or affixed to the ball that detaches on
delivery or is a moving part during delivery except as provided in Rule 4b and Rule 4c.
4b. Special Equipment to Grip the Ball
A player may use special equipment to aid in grasping and delivering the ball if it is in place of a hand,
or major portion thereof, lost by amputation or otherwise.
4c. Mechanical Aids to Grip the Ball - Alternating Delivery
A player may, if granted permission by USBC Headquarters and each league or tournament in which the
player participates, alternate right/left-handed delivery and/or use special equipment to aid in grasping
and delivering the ball.
Permission may be granted if the following is submitted to USBC Headquarters:
1. A doctor’s certificate describing the disability and the reason to alternate right/left-handed delivery
and/or recommending the aid.
2. Mechanical Aid. A description, drawing or model of the aid. Unless the individual is unable to
impart force or impetus to a ball, the aid cannot incorporate a mechanical device with moving parts
that would impart force or impetus to the ball.
When authorization is given, USBC Headquarters will provide the player with a special card stating
that alternating right/left-handed delivery and/or the use of the specified mechanical aid has been
approved. If permission is denied, the player has the right of appeal to the USBC Legal Committee.
Permission may be withdrawn for cause.
I just wonder how far we can push the boundaries without unfair advantage, or resistance by the powers that be?!
Stay behind the line. One ball thrown at a time. You can even throw the ball across the entire lane and hit the pins before the lane, and it's legal. There's really nothing you can do the push the boundaries there, short of cutting your own hands off so you can use bionic hands instead.
Has anyone got an example of how the ruling bodies in “Bowling” has stepped in and declared some action, some new style of play, to be unacceptable for recordable competition? My FIRST knee-jerk reaction to the two-handed throw was negative, thinking that if a person was competing, they must perform within more standardized methods.
No, but I can give an example from outside bowling - the Fosbury Flop.
Suppose a lady bowler, who throws a “standard approach,” with less upper body strength, went up against a fella who was typically a two-handed bowler. Who would YOU expect to win that game??
Whoever was most accurate, covered their spares and hit the pocket the most.
Oh, I forgot, we don’t allow the men to compete against women in the “Pro” ranks, do we?! (Tongue in cheek).
What are you even on about? There's a separate PWBA, but women can play in the PBA (and have won, Kelly Kulick won the Tournament of Champions, Liz Johnson won the Chameleon Championship last year).
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by jazlar » May 10th, 2018, 3:00 pm

Why does everything seem to come down to "unfair" advantage? Anyone can throw two handed if they wanted to. Sure, it may be physically impossible for some, but so is it for some (many) to rev it one handed like EJ or Robert Smith. There are players in every sport that are more gifted than others. Why is everyone always trying to even the playing field?

All one has to do is look at Norm Duke and Liz Johnson and see how they still compete against the power players. Even though Pete Weber hooks the ball quite a bit, he's not a power player. He still does well. Pins will still fall without a 500+ rev rate and high speed. Master your game and you can still be victorious.

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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by kajmk » May 15th, 2018, 9:33 pm

TonyPR wrote:There is really no unfair advantage with two handed bowling. The difference is that two handed bowlers keep the non bowling arm on the ball for a longer time than one handed bowlers, they all release the ball with one hand. One may see an advantage in the amount of rpms a two handed bowler generates, they do this by getting their hand way under the ball and keeping a loose wrist, this can also be achieved one handed (see EJ Tacket or Marshall Kent) with the thumb inserted or not. Now as for the ladies I really don’t understand why there are no more two handed female bowlers (I have spoken with two very well known USBC Gold Level coaches who agree). Usually men have a more powerful game than women and two handed bowling would allow women to get this power without having to be big and strong, the two handed approach takes a lot of flexibility and women in general tend to be more flexible than men. I am currently training my 12 yr old daughter to bowl two handed, she’s also a lefty so watch out, lets wait 8 more years and I’ll be telling another story...

I just viewed this thread and was looking to see if anyone mentioned the fact that the release is ONE handed.
I don't believe that the 2 handed swing is an unfair advantage. Pure RPMS guarantees nothing, ask Kelly Coffman erstwhile rev master, Bob Vespi, for example.

Hope things are improving in Puerto Rico.

It's my opinion that more young kids would be captivated by this style and stay with the sport. Kids like to be successful just like adults, two armed swing is a shorter road to success. Again, this is my opinion and nothing more.
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by soupy1957 » May 16th, 2018, 8:18 am

“..............It's my opinion that more young kids would be captivated by this style and stay with the sport...........”




Aside from the apparent truth, that the two-handed throw (if you will) is allowable, I think you may have hit on the ultimate truth of it all..........that the sport which once had a dominant presence, has struggled to stay relevant. A LOT of money has been spent over the years on it; businesses built around it!

The “powers that be” would likely be so hungry to re-gain a dominant place in the “sports industry” world again, that who KNOWS what consessions they might make, to re-energize the sport?!

Let’s face it..........how long before the average Jack-n-Jill get TIRED of watching strike after strike, before it gets “old?!” Don’t be too quick to judge that statement, by the way. Yes, to DO that consistently requires a lot..........I’m just saying that there are less variables.......only so many split combinations and so forth; as opposed to, let’s say, how many landscapes in golf to navigate, or body piles in Rugby or the NFL????

Alternate, or CGI worlds are now competing strongly for attention, and have overtaken the entertainment market........making “bowling,” as an industry, clamor for whatever portion of the “sports” world pie it can hold on to!!
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by TonyPR » May 16th, 2018, 10:36 am

It’s not a two handed “throw” it’s a two handed “approach”.

You seem to be new to the sport and have an opinion based on little experience. I would encourage you to stop bowling on recreational house shots and join a sport league so you can see firsthand the level of difficulty in the sport of bowling. Try to find one that plays on WTBA patterns. Report back on your experience.

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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by bowl1820 » May 16th, 2018, 2:42 pm

soupy1957 wrote:Aside from the apparent truth, that the two-handed throw (if you will) is allowable,
This is a two-handed delivery (throw):

(Both hands propel the ball down the lane, typically only little kids do this)
Image


This is the two-handed approach:
(Only one hand propels the ball down the lane)
Belmo two handed approach.jpg
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by soupy1957 » May 16th, 2018, 4:28 pm

TonyPR wrote:It’s not a two handed “throw” it’s a two handed “approach”.

You seem to be new to the sport and have an opinion based on little experience...........
Not new to the sport, but certainly not an expert by any stretch of the imagination.
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by nyrevsmachine » August 29th, 2018, 7:07 pm

Tony Lambert from louisville. Watched him dominate scratch leagues in the early 90 s . This guy was a lefty 2 hqnder. You could hear him strike in the parking lot.

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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by delbowler » August 30th, 2018, 9:25 pm

Walter Ray Williams Jr. uses it now on occasion too. Doesn't look pretty like Belmo (of course neither does his normal shot :lol: ) and doesn't work all that well yet (he's said it's to keep things fun when he's already losing), but still.

It's entirely possible the one-arm swing will go the way of the full roller and one-finger grip.

Of course, anyone is free to create a different sanctioning body with different rules if it's THAT much of a problem to them.
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by Mongo » September 5th, 2018, 11:53 am

nyrevsmachine wrote:Tony Lambert from louisville. Watched him dominate scratch leagues in the early 90 s . This guy was a lefty 2 hqnder. You could hear him strike in the parking lot.
I'll bump that back to mid-80's. I remember seeing him for the first time at some sweepers and going "WTF?"

Then he would shoot 1300 for 5 and I went...oh.
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Re: The Origins Of The Two-Handed Throw??

Post by TomaHawk » September 5th, 2018, 2:14 pm

When the two-hand style started versus it's popularity are two different things. Without a doubt, Belmo is responsible for the explosion we have witnessed over the past several years. I seems, in today's bowling environment, every kid on the lanes experiments with the two-hand technique at some point in time.

When it comes to drilling for new, young bowlers? The no-thumb style is now the norm.

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