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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:43 pm Post Number: #61 Post
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Last edited by TonyPR on Tue May 08, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 2:16 pm Post Number: #62 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
I am beginning to get tired of this, Nord just because you can’t bowl with speed and power doesn’t mean the game has to change to fit your game. It won’t change so if you don’t like it you can always take up fly fishing.


Easy now.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 3:42 pm Post Number: #63 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
I am beginning to get tired of this, Nord just because you can’t bowl with speed and power doesn’t mean the game has to change to fit your game. It won’t change so if you don’t like it you can always take up fly fishing.


I really don't understand your animosity towards me.
There are legions of bowlers in the world, probably the majority of bowlers, who do not have speed and power.
I am not alone.
When bowling conditions are designed to cater to an elite, at the expense of the majority, then that is something that needs to be looked at.
We know technology has gotten out of hand as well as patterns, this is not in question.
What is up for debate is what to do about it?
The USBC has taken a step towards changing it.
Is the change for the better?
Only time will tell.
And that is the value of this forum, to debate and discuss and talk about our own personal experiences and ideas.
But attacking and disparaging members because you do not agree with their opinion is not the purpose of this forum.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:02 pm Post Number: #64 Post
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I do not agree with the methods, but the thought behind it, I can stand by. Even female bowlers are getting their revs up now, that is the modern game, more and more players learn to control high revs and retain precision. It's not enough to just increase revs or speed, you gotta have the correct steps, body angles and timing for all this to work together, like players such as Marshall Kent, EJ Tackett and Tommy Jones. Only learning how to spin the ball faster and throw it harder isn't enough.

That is also where the difference lies, Nord. You can't learn to just increase revs or speed, you need to revamp your whole game to change those things properly. I am not saying you should or have to, but the bowling you play isn't the same bowling as younger players does, and I am not sure they mix. I think that is also why you are searching so much for layouts that suit you, you are trying to fit in in a sport that is very different to the time when you got your basics in.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:55 pm Post Number: #65 Post
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Why do you want to stop pin action from the sides? Kickbacks haven't changed much since automatic pinsetters came along, the most difference is that people know how to support flat gutters properly.


Google "WAHSAM" -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 5:23 pm Post Number: #66 Post
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JohnP wrote:

Google "WAHSAM" -- JohnP

Yeah that ain't the kickbacks, that is the flat gutters. And WASHAM, what, why? Build a support from the floor up so it just touches the flat gutters, something like 2x2". If you know basic carpentry and got the tools, its easy to do.

We got plywood sheets bolted down under our flat gutters, so we have always had some effect, but nothing like this obvously. This isn't something new, the only new here is the marketing.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 5:37 pm Post Number: #67 Post
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I don't particularly follow any other sports, but is there any other examples where older players get irrationally angry that the younger people are better than them?

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 5:49 pm Post Number: #68 Post
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flibblesh wrote:
I don't particularly follow any other sports, but is there any other examples where older players get irrationally angry that the younger people are better than them?


The old guys who used wooden drivers (golf) and wooden rackets (tennis) still argue about the advancement of today's equipment.

I wonder if the old guys who played football without helmets think that era was better too...


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 6:26 pm Post Number: #69 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:

The old guys who used wooden drivers (golf) and wooden rackets (tennis) still argue about the advancement of today's equipment.

I wonder if the old guys who played football without helmets think that era was better too...

They don't think at all :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 6:37 pm Post Number: #70 Post
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Sorta related. Some golf videos started showing up in my youTube feed (I haven't golfed in 25 years, so so figure), the most interesting ones were a PGA player hitting different equipment and (new, unopened) golf balls, and measuring the distance/accuracy with a drive simulator.

For him, the wooden driver was consistently about 230 yards. The 1995 Titanium driver was 260, and the modern driver was about 280. The modern ball was about 12 yards longer than the 1995 ball (liquid core, wound). So, the net gain in distance was 50-60 yards, for the same golfer.

The interesting thing to me was not the distance, but how much more forgiveness the new driver/ball gave him. He was hitting very tight, accurate patterns with the modern driver, whereas he was all over the place with wood.

If "par" for bowling was 195-200 back in 1980, and it's now 225 that's roughly a 10-15% improvement over 35+ years. This can be partially attributed to better equipment and easier conditions - but I also think better athletes are also a factor too. The game is more complicated and technical now.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 6:45 pm Post Number: #71 Post
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Bowlers are more athletes now, you use a lot more of the body now than before, and more explosiveness than finesse.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 8:56 pm Post Number: #72 Post
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JJakobsen wrote:
Bowlers are more athletes now, you use a lot more of the body now than before, and more explosiveness than finesse.

I was watching an old Johnny King video.
He was not physical at all, was a Full Roller, had a big cigar in his mouth and was a striking machine.
Why was it not needed to be physical back then, but today it is?

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Thu May 10, 2018 10:56 pm Post Number: #73 Post
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Nord, as a young guy, I had the opportunity to bowl with some of the smoothest bowlers on earth. Also, had the good fortune of getting advice from them too. My game was smooth as silk. Then, Mark Roth came along. Everything the older bowlers were saying became obsolete.

Mark Roth was a run and gunner, never even knew how many steps he was going to take. He was intense and instinctive. He epitomized everything we were told not to do. I was a pretty good athlete, so were a lot of the fellows I bowled with. We all thought, what if we could blend the two bowling styles.

We did.

What you are witnessing today, is the end result. Gone is structured swing which the old timers urged us to keep below our shoulder. The swing was to the top of our head or above now. Enter the power step which is simply the ability to "wait" on the ball for an extended amount of time. To go with that, our slide step became shorter. That enabled us to unload the ball into the floor instead of lifting with our fingers.

Today, it's the two handers. They have it all. The bent armswing of Earl Anthony with the power of Tommy Jones. Talk about taking the game we know to a new level!

There are a lot of bowlers from my era that hate the two hand style. I look back and realize, we endured the same criticism from the old timers when they saw us hook the whole lane. It's a generational thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 1:19 pm Post Number: #74 Post
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Nord wrote:
I was watching an old Johnny King video.
He was not physical at all, was a Full Roller, had a big cigar in his mouth and was a striking machine.
Why was it not needed to be physical back then, but today it is?

Go check the average for those tournaments, check the oil patterns, check the number of honor scores in competition (no, league isn't competition, it is purely an afternoon activity). Even when you remove league and 10:1 patterns, the numbers are higher. It isn't only the equipment, people have more power to strike more, but they also got the precision to actually use that power.

If you can't see that difference, you need to start reading asap. The modern power players have insane accuracy too, just watch players like Kent when they DON'T hook 20 boards, but play more down and in with that amount of revs and speed. The second they need to hook the whole lane, is the second you start to get the classic power player splits.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:02 pm Post Number: #75 Post
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When I was in my competitive tennis phase of my life my favorite player was Borg.
He was the player that broke the mold and I wanted to play just like him.
He used two hands and hit the ball 5 feet over the net with massive top spin and just stood back and used his physical fitness and amazing speed to keep the ball going and is his opponent pinned to the baseline until they broke physically and mentally.

My favorite modern bowlers today are Belmo, Jesper and Pete.
To me Belmo is amazing because he is so accurate and consistent and powerful all at the same time.
He is the best today in my opinion.
I love the display that Jesper puts on with urethane.
And I love Pete because he is ballet in motion.

So don't misunderstand my past comments as a rejection of the modern game.
If I was advising a young bowler I would get them to a great training center so they could develop a solid modern game.

I guess my only question is how can I become the best me?
How can I optimize my ancient style so I can have better scores and have more fun in this modern game?
Resin balls seem to fight me and don't help me like they do modern players.
Strong layouts don't make balls roll early for me, they make them very late and snappy.
It seems like everything they say I should do actually produces the opposite effect for me.
That is was leaves me in a quandary.
No one has been able to look at me and say:
"Oh, of course those balls and layouts won't work for you. You have an old style of bowling. If you want to score high you need this kind of ball type and you need these kinds of layouts and then you will be surprised at how much better your ball reaction is and how much higher you can score."

So that is why I keep experimenting and hoping...

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:40 pm Post Number: #76 Post
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Nord wrote:
When I was in my competitive tennis phase of my life my favorite player was Borg.
He was the player that broke the mold and I wanted to play just like him.
He used two hands and hit the ball 5 feet over the net with massive top spin and just stood back and used his physical fitness and amazing speed to keep the ball going and is his opponent pinned to the baseline until they broke physically and mentally.

My favorite modern bowlers today are Belmo, Jesper and Pete.
To me Belmo is amazing because he is so accurate and consistent and powerful all at the same time.
He is the best today in my opinion.
I love the display that Jesper puts on with urethane.
And I love Pete because he is ballet in motion.

So don't misunderstand my past comments as a rejection of the modern game.
If I was advising a young bowler I would get them to a great training center so they could develop a solid modern game.

I guess my only question is how can I become the best me?
How can I optimize my ancient style so I can have better scores and have more fun in this modern game?
Resin balls seem to fight me and don't help me like they do modern players.
Strong layouts don't make balls roll early for me, they make them very late and snappy.
It seems like everything they say I should do actually produces the opposite effect for me.
That is was leaves me in a quandary.
No one has been able to look at me and say:
"Oh, of course those balls and layouts won't work for you. You have an old style of bowling. If you want to score high you need this kind of ball type and you need these kinds of layouts and then you will be surprised at how much better your ball reaction is and how much higher you can score."

So that is why I keep experimenting and hoping...

Well if an early-rolling ball is snappy, you got layouts that are way off, or a wrong PAP measurement...

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 4:41 pm Post Number: #77 Post
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Nord wrote:
I guess my only question is how can I become the best me?
How can I optimize my ancient style so I can have better scores and have more fun in this modern game?


I bowl with skillful bowlers who are 75+ with similar ball speed and rev rate as you.

They can throw reactive equipment because they move left of 2nd arrow, get into the oil and swing it into the friction. Are their scores and averages dramatically higher than yours? Probably not, but perhaps.

So what is the difference? They are not full rollers, and they can get deep. Third and fourth arrow is more typical for them in order to be matched up with their rev dominant releases. With your lack of tilt and long track, this might not be possible.

When I came back to bowling, I spent a lot of time with conditioning. If it was me (and it may be someday) I would hit the gym, improve my overall strength levels and work on ball speed and losing the suitcase grip/full roller.

Naturally, it all depends on what you want to accomplish. If you're happy with where you are, then just enjoy the game. If you're not satisfied, then time to change - but equipment and layouts alone may not do it.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 6:17 pm Post Number: #78 Post
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Nord our BowlingChat coahing staff would be more than happy to help you get some power to your game. I am sure we can get you to 13-14 mph monitor speed with some minor technique and release changes. You have an asset in that you are a very precise player. A Robby’s revs or similar wrist device and adequate fit to go with it will teach you a different release and when you learn it you can either lose the wrist device or keep playing with it. With a fit that doesn’t promote squeezing and with staying behind the ball instead of on top of it the speed will come.


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:03 pm Post Number: #79 Post
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I agree with Tony there! Simple changes to your steps and a timing that matches those steps can get your ball speed up pretty easily, without taking any precision out (you aren't supposed to increase ball speed with your arm, as you probably know, but with your feet). A wrist device and some hours of release practice, and you might see a 3/4 roll, which opens a lot of layouts for you, and maybe some extra revs too, to go with the higher speed!

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 11, 2018 7:58 pm Post Number: #80 Post
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Thank you for your positive words.

I do workout in the gym regularly with weights, full body workouts and cardio.
I have done this since I was 16.
I was also a body builder when I was young.
So I am pretty fit for my age and in excellent health.

My main issue and confusion right now is balls and layouts to optimize my release style so it works correctly.
As you know I recently got a second True Motion and put the pin at 3 3/8" (Leverage Layout) with the goal of creating a stronger hooking ball that would roll early and arc nicely throughout the lane so if the volume was higher I could use this True Motion rather than my Axis True Motion.

But I have used this Leverage True Motion in league in two different houses and the result was the same, the ball would go really long and hook hard late, like it was a pearl or something and sometimes it would not hook at all.
This made the ball a control nightmare and pretty useless to me.

I also have a reactive ball, a Visionary Gladiator with the same leverage layout and when I tried it last night in league it had the identical reaction to the Leverage True Motion with the exception that it went even longer and snapped even harder or did absolutely nothing.
Again a control nightmare.

I finally had to go to my TMA (True Motion Axis) in game three just to be able to have some control and score above a 130.

So before I make the big long-term jump to converting to a semi-roller, I would like to first know why standard Full Roller layouts that are supposed to produce specific ball motions and shapes, actually produce the opposite or odd results for me.

If you have an idea of what is wrong and why these layouts do not work for me and have a experiment you would like to try, I can get one of my many paperweights plugged and redrilled and try it.

What do you think?

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Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 648 bowled with Purple Hammer Urethane.


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