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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 7:46 pm Post Number: #41 Post
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TonyPR wrote:

Yea! Lets go back to carburetor engines, hand rolled windows, no power steering and no anesthesia when having a tooth removed because of a cavity, who needs root canals anyway. Give me some coke in my Coca Cola :lol:

I can live with the coke lol, can't stand coffeine, instant toilet visits :lol: :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:41 pm Post Number: #42 Post
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MeNoRevs wrote:

Just a question, because I really dont know.... Is there any other Olympic sport that success is so heavily weighed on the equipment as bowling is? We all heard it before "you cant out bowl bad ball reaction".


IMO, Golf is just as dependent on equipment (and no other sport is close, other than the effects of equipment that is just bad, like an archery arrow that isn’t quite to spec throwing off the trajectory).

Golf and Bowling are similar in that two people could play the same exact environment and execute at the same level but score massively different. Poor club choices will add strokes just as quickly as poor ball choices will subtract pins.

My stance on that is the same as the playing environment - if it’s a problem for the olympics, so be it. The complexity of choosing the right ball at the right time is a chess match that I lose often enough, and that keeps me coming back for more. If I choose the right ball on the right line faster, I can beat somebody much more talented than me on any given day. Unpredictable.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Fri May 04, 2018 11:37 pm Post Number: #43 Post
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JJakobsen wrote:
If we are gonna take only classic olympics, if you guys are so nostalgic, get out the bug sprayer and the rubber balls too!

I would love to give that a try.
My highest all time game was bowled with a rubber ball.

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TonyPR wrote:

Yea! Lets go back to carburetor engines, hand rolled windows, no power steering and no anesthesia when having a tooth removed because of a cavity, who needs root canals anyway. Give me some coke in my Coca Cola

I am good with everything you mentioned except the no anesthesia!

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sat May 05, 2018 10:30 pm Post Number: #44 Post
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The swimming governing body (FINA) allowed a type of swimming suit that resulted on records being broken nearly every time a swimming competition was held. Then FINA changed the policy to prevent these 'record breaking' swimming suits from being used in competition. Their thinking suggests that the essence of competition is to determine a winner, breaking records is a byproduct of competition.

I agree with FINA. I think bowling should control equipment much more.


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 1:06 am Post Number: #45 Post
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The equipment is not what has the scores so high, it’s the high ratio house shots, high gutters and bouncy walls at the pin deck area.


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 1:10 am Post Number: #46 Post
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Bahshay wrote:

Well, sure.

In basketball, a 3 pointer counts as 3 whether it’s a swish, off the backboard, or takes 8 bounces off the rim.

In hockey, goals can be scored by bouncing off a guy who was lucky (or unlucky) enough to be standing at the right place at the right time.

There’s the racket sports, like tennis, table tennis, and badmitton, where you can miss what you’re aiming for but still score the point if the opponent is in the wrong spot. Or, the ball can hit the net but roll over. Volleyball fits in here too.

There’s combative sports like boxing and judo...

There are many sports where you’re judged on speed or execution, and a mistake will cost you. But that isn’t the case in pretty much any sport where points are scored, and there’s a lot of them.

There is a difference between missing your target, getting lucky and an accident. How many 3 pointers get scored when you miss outside the ring altogether? A deflection off a player in soccer or hockey for a goal isn't usually the intention of the striker, just luck like you said. Elite racket sports people very rarely mishit or get a lucky point, and considering 100s of points are played to determine a match, it isn't as consequential to the outcome.

If a golfer misses a putt 3 inches left, there isn't another hole there for the ball to drop into. A lucky wind in archery? I'm sure that can also blow the arrow off target too, and is sort of the equavilent of lane transition catching you when you throw a good shot and the ball reacts unexpectedly.

I understand bowling isn't alone with your examples, but if you isolate it as a target sport (which it may or may not be), it is unique in how you can still get rewarded for poor targeting and/or execution.

I'm watching the Sonoma open live, and Verity's 2nd shot in the final was a Brooklyn as she missed inside. Missing your target and getting maximum reward. And again in the 6th frame. And Shannon just threw one in her 8th frame. So in the first 16 shots, 3 mistakes have been rewarded with strikes.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 2:11 am Post Number: #47 Post
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deanchamp wrote:
There is a difference between missing your target, getting lucky and an accident. How many 3 pointers get scored when you miss outside the ring altogether? A deflection off a player in soccer or hockey for a goal isn't usually the intention of the striker, just luck like you said. Elite racket sports people very rarely mishit or get a lucky point, and considering 100s of points are played to determine a match, it isn't as consequential to the outcome.
.


What exactly is the difference of missing your mark and getting lucky and an accident? Unless you’re purposely missing your mark and getting lucky, they’re both accidents. Either way it’s maximum reward.

Let’s look at yesterday’s Bruins/Lightning game. The final goal in overtime was a one handed tip by Girardi. A pass was thrown into the zone, deflects off a defenders skate, hits Girardi’s stick (the back of it no less) and bounces over the goalie.

The goal was scored because Girardi threw his stick out there and hoped for the best. Without the deflection off the skate, the puck never hits Girardi’s stick. But it does, and the end result is the most maximum of maximum results - a goal that ends the game. A good job by Girardi to get to the right spot on the ice to have a chance, but still ultimately luck. His stick was in the wrong spot to receive the pass UNLESS it happens to hit off a skate along the way, which he could not have planned for.

What is the difference between that luck and the female bowlers getting a Brooklyn strike in the 10th to win? Both tried to do the right thing, effectively failed, and we’re rewarded anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 6:33 pm Post Number: #48 Post
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Here's a situation that was up close and personal. My son was seeded #7 in the High School State Tournament. The fellow he was bowling against was a formidable competitor. The first to win 3 of 5 would move on to the next round.

It was the best bowling match I had ever witnessed, period.

The two of them were going back and forth taking the lead. The first four games came down to one of them needing to strike out to win the game. Unbelievably, they both succeeded at doing so. The fifth game would prove no different, everything coming down to the tenth frame.

My son was up first. He had to strike out to force the other bowler to throw the first 2 in the tenth. He managed to get the three strikes. The other young bowler stepped up in the tenth.

The first shot in the tenth, the young fellow looked confident. He rolled the ball as good as any touring professional could and struck. As he was preparing for the next shot, did not appear to have the same air of confidence. Where previously he was poised and motionless in his stance, he was fidgeting this time. It wasn't like he was convulsing, just a little nervous.

The youngster starts his approach, moving the ball into the swing flawlessly. He was truly a very talented bowler. The ball gets to the top of his and begins its downward descent just as he begins his slide step. Perfect!

All of a sudden, the ball falls off his hand, right smack onto the approach. Everyone is shocked. I'm stunned (and kind of elated at the same time). Unbelievably, the ball begins to roll forward.

The ball was going, maybe, 2 mph. It headed for the gutter, got to about the 25ft area, and teetered on the edge for about 10ft. Then the most absolutely, mind blowing thing I've ever witnessed in competitive bowling took place, the ball started slowly rolling for the pocket. It was going so slow, it should have stopped on the lane! But, it didn't.

The ball hit the pins and they began to topple. It was so slow, I thought for sure the rack would come down before the ball made it to the pit. By now, you've guessed, he struck.

That took zero skill.


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 7:23 pm Post Number: #49 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
Here's a situation that was up close and personal. My son was seeded #7 in the High School State Tournament. The fellow he was bowling against was a formidable competitor. The first to win 3 of 5 would move on to the next round.

It was the best bowling match I had ever witnessed, period.

The two of them were going back and forth taking the lead. The first four games came down to one of them needing to strike out to win the game. Unbelievably, they both succeeded at doing so. The fifth game would prove no different, everything coming down to the tenth frame.

My son was up first. He had to strike out to force the other bowler to throw the first 2 in the tenth. He managed to get the three strikes. The other young bowler stepped up in the tenth.

The first shot in the tenth, the young fellow looked confident. He rolled the ball as good as any touring professional could and struck. As he was preparing for the next shot, did not appear to have the same air of confidence. Where previously he was poised and motionless in his stance, he was fidgeting this time. It wasn't like he was convulsing, just a little nervous.

The youngster starts his approach, moving the ball into the swing flawlessly. He was truly a very talented bowler. The ball gets to the top of his and begins its downward descent just as he begins his slide step. Perfect!

All of a sudden, the ball falls off his hand, right smack onto the approach. Everyone is shocked. I'm stunned (and kind of elated at the same time). Unbelievably, the ball begins to roll forward.

The ball was going, maybe, 2 mph. It headed for the gutter, got to about the 25ft area, and teetered on the edge for about 10ft. Then the most absolutely, mind blowing thing I've ever witnessed in competitive bowling took place, the ball started slowly rolling for the pocket. It was going so slow, it should have stopped on the lane! But, it didn't.

The ball hit the pins and they began to topple. It was so slow, I thought for sure the rack would come down before the ball made it to the pit. By now, you've guessed, he struck.

That took zero skill.


I love house shots.


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 7:56 pm Post Number: #50 Post
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I followed the Norwegian National Championships this weekend. Our clubs bowlers got a bronze medal in double, and in the end, one of the double partners also ended up on 3. place in singles, getting a bronze medal there too.

After 29 games, the top 3 was 32 pins from eachother (finals was played in the PP final setup, which means you get bonus points for games over 200 and 250, and points if you beat your competitor, and you play each competitor for one game, 11 games for the 12 player final). This was on a 41.5ft, 2.5:1 ratio pattern, 25ml.

On that pattern, in that setting, the ball that was dropped would never have seen the pins at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Sun May 06, 2018 8:05 pm Post Number: #51 Post
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[/quote]I love house shots.[/quote]

...the state competition was bowled on a blue pattern

It was just blatant luck :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:30 am Post Number: #52 Post
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Watching high rev and high speed bowlers in league throw trash shots with resin and get strikes and seeing pins bounce off the side walls to take out stragglers makes me wonder what would happen if we took these same players, on the same house shots and did only two things:

1. Take their resin away and give them a urethane ball with a simple label drill (no balance hole allowed) and pancake weight block.
2. Put nets on the sides of the lane so pins are no longer allowed to bounce out, this includes the 6 pin snapping out the 10 pn.

These would be my Olympic bowling requirements.
Oh, also a flat pattern.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 8:28 am Post Number: #53 Post
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[quote="Nord].......Oh, also a flat pattern.[/quote]

Is this a reference to topography? I talked about that again yesterday, with the son of the owner of the Alley that I frequent. He said they’d “be happy to do a study on their lanes, that gave results as to the flatness of their fifty year old lanes, if they got $50.00 per regular patron, to PAY for the study!”

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 3:19 pm Post Number: #54 Post
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Nord wrote:
Watching high rev and high speed bowlers in league throw trash shots with resin and get strikes and seeing pins bounce off the side walls to take out stragglers makes me wonder what would happen if we took these same players, on the same house shots and did only two things:

1. Take their resin away and give them a urethane ball with a simple label drill (no balance hole allowed) and pancake weight block.
2. Put nets on the sides of the lane so pins are no longer allowed to bounce out, this includes the 6 pin snapping out the 10 pn.

These would be my Olympic bowling requirements.
Oh, also a flat pattern.

Why do you want to stop pin action from the sides? Kickbacks haven't changed much since automatic pinsetters came along, the most difference is that people know how to support flat gutters properly.

The biggest difference is that players like Earl Anthony and yourself have very little revs, very little hitting power. whereas players like Belmo, partly myself, we have power with 400-600rpm and higher speeds.

The difference in HOW the game is played is immense, and no equipment will change that. There is a reason Roth and Monacelli were radical once, they were in the forefront for the modern power play. Now, its the norm, what Roth and Monacelli and similar players did in the 80s and 90s is nothing compared to what players can do to a ball now, and what that ball can do to the pins.

EDIT: You said you prefer carburetors and such. It might be so, but in that case, if you do not like the digital age and what it brings, you are looking in the wrong direction if you only look back on the "good old days". Grass is always greener and all that, I know. But the future does not have to resemble the past to be good, great even. Often, the past is not a good thing to look at, look at the shit we've done to other humans, because of nonsense hate.

Do not think "what have we done before", think "what can we do new".

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 4:49 pm Post Number: #55 Post
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JJakobsen wrote:
Why do you want to stop pin action from the sides?

To increase difficulty in the game and require accuracy and consistency as the primary means to score.
Power players have become spoiled by the assistance of messengers covering their poor shots.

JJakobsen wrote:
The biggest difference is that players like Earl Anthony and yourself have very little revs, very little hitting power. whereas players like Belmo, partly myself, we have power with 400-600rpm and higher speeds.

I am honored to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Earl Anthony.
He was truly a miracle bowler.
If anyone proved bowling is not a game of power, Earl was that man.


JJakobsen wrote:
The difference in HOW the game is played is immense, and no equipment will change that.

Actually equipment is what changed the game and how it is played.
It is a repeat of what happened in tennis.
Once powerful graphite rackets were brought in, the classic game of tennis was doomed.
Now tennis is just a game of brute force.
Two battle ships launching broadsides back and forth at each other until one sinks, rather that what tennis was and should have remained, a fencing match between intelligent and skilled opponents.
Bowling, due to the introduction of Resin balls, has also become a game of brute force.
High velocity, high rpm cruise missiles launched at the target with the expectation of the highly reflective side walls producing a pin ball effect on poor hits.
I don't blame bowlers for evolving into what the tech encouraged them to become, but I do blame the leaders and officials of bowling for allowing it ever to be.

JJakobsen wrote:
EDIT: You said you prefer carburetors and such. It might be so, but in that case, if you do not like the digital age and what it brings

There are many things in the modern world that I like and enjoy, but not everything is better than it was. There are many things from the past that were better and more enjoyable than they are now.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 5:44 pm Post Number: #56 Post
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Nord wrote:
To increase difficulty in the game and require accuracy and consistency as the primary means to score.
Power players have become spoiled by the assistance of messengers covering their poor shots.


I am honored to even be mentioned in the same sentence as Earl Anthony.
He was truly a miracle bowler.
If anyone proved bowling is not a game of power, Earl was that man.

Earl Anthony proved that bowling in the 60s and 70s wasn't a game of power. Today, he would probably not fare as well with the technique he had back then.
Nord wrote:

Actually equipment is what changed the game and how it is played.
It is a repeat of what happened in tennis.
Once powerful graphite rackets were brought in, the classic game of tennis was doomed.
Now tennis is just a game of brute force.
Two battle ships launching broadsides back and forth at each other until one sinks, rather that what tennis was and should have remained, a fencing match between intelligent and skilled opponents.
Bowling, due to the introduction of Resin balls, has also become a game of brute force.
High velocity, high rpm cruise missiles launched at the target with the expectation of the highly reflective side walls producing a pin ball effect on poor hits.
I don't blame bowlers for evolving into what the tech encouraged them to become, but I do blame the leaders and officials of bowling for allowing it ever to be.
The power players came before the resin balls. The resin balls did without a doubt force the issue, but the sport was moving more towards power than finesse before resin, even before urethane.
Nord wrote:
There are many things in the modern world that I like and enjoy, but not everything is better than it was. There are many things from the past that were better and more enjoyable than they are now.
I am sure its the nostalgic glasses that make you believe that. I didn't live back then, so I see only what I can find on YouTube, what I can read. I didn't live back then, so I don't have any good memories that can cloud my judgement. In the same way that I will always want my Storm Secret Agent back, best ball for me. It would most likely suck today if I am brutally honest, but the memories from that ball and those times are good. Doesn't mean they really were good, thats just how I remember them.

I'd actually challenge you, but it doesn't fit in this thread. But for another time, what was really better back then? Not talking price pools or the prestige of bowling, that is something that isn't governed by the equipment as much as the personalities of the bowlers, and the spike of popularity automatic pinsetters and automatic scoring gave, making it more of a peoples sport than it was.

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Mon May 07, 2018 11:10 pm Post Number: #57 Post
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I grew up in the 60's and 70's, a magical two decades.
The sense of style and art and home decor and the way things looked were just, well, its hard to put your finger on it.
But it had a primitive beauty and style and we see this emulated today in retro things.

My dad bowled in that era at La Habra bowl.
His team won the Coca Cola Championship at Wonderbowl in 1964.
He had several perfect games all done with his single rubber ball.
My first bowling ball was a Cougar rubber ball that looked like this:
Attachment:
Cougar Rubber Ball.jpg


I had a bag, shoes and this one ball.
I read Nelson Burton Jr. book on bowling and tried to do what he said in there.
I averaged about 165 back then.
Then I quit bowling until 2012.
The first ball I got was a Storm Virtual Gravity Nano.
I used that ball for a couple of years and it was a constant struggle of ups and downs.
I remember telling people, "I don't remember bowling being this hard back then."

I think anyone that grew up in the 60's and 70's can't help waxing nostalgic for those times.
I can tell you there are many feelings and emotions and smells and colors from that time that made a strong formative impression on me and when I watch a movie from that era, or a bowling match, it feels very good and makes me want to take that time trip back, get my rubber ball and hit the lanes.


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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 12:31 am Post Number: #58 Post
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kind of a random thought, but i think curling is the weirdest Olympic sport

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 4:29 am Post Number: #59 Post
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mrbean wrote:
kind of a random thought, but i think curling is the weirdest Olympic sport

I actually had a bowler in league tell me that I bowled like a Curler. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Should bowling be in the Olympics?
 Posted: Tue May 08, 2018 10:43 am Post Number: #60 Post
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mrbean wrote:
kind of a random thought, but i think curling is the weirdest Olympic sport


And is Very similar to bowling, the sheet (the ice which is about twice as long as a lane at a 150') has conditions that change as they play and has to basically be stripped and dressed before the next match. They even have left and right handed shoes with slide and grip soles. Etc.

Its quite technical and takes strategy to play.

The stones weigh 38-44 pounds and cost about $400.

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