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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:17 pm Post Number: #81 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
Just for sake of visualization, a low rev player would essentially rotate the sponge two revolutions. Each of the two revolutions comes in contact with a different part of the sponge. Compare that to a bowler who can rotate the sponge six times, each revolution comes in contact with a different part of the sponge. To state the obvious, the more times the sponge rotates on a fresh part of the sponge, the higher the potential for removing oil from the surface.
That is a simplistic explanation. Hope it helps though.

The diff of the ball and the layout are what cause track flare.
I am a very low rev bowler, but on my Widow Urethane ball and my Crow Urethane, both of which have high flare layouts on high diff cores, I am getting between 5 and 6 lines of flare.
I imagine a high rev bowler would get higher than 6 lines more closely spaced, maybe double that amount.
If the USBC is afraid of lane breakdown and oil depletion, then limit the diffs on balls so they do not flare much, even for high rev bowlers.

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:19 pm Post Number: #82 Post
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Nord wrote:
I am not sure I fully understand what you mean.
I have a Grizz urethane bowling ball with a simple label drill.
This ball gets only one flare line through the middle of the palm.
If the condition is right for it, it rolls better than any ball I have ever used.
Smooth as silk with a nice subtle backend shape and a true roll through the pins.

Are you saying that the balls roll like crap on a specific oil condition unless they have a balance hole?
Becasuse in the example I pointed out above, even a ball that does not flare and does not absorb oil will roll very well on the right condition.
Doesn't it all come down to surface now?
Finding the right ball for the condition?

I did the pin axis drilling 20 years ago. Will I ever drill another one? Probably not.

Yes there are some condition specific balls in my arsenal. Those are going to be the really tough ones to replace. Weak Asymmetricals and Symmetrical balls just can't get the drilling angles low enough to match the ball motion I created with balance holes.

What I am saying is the balance holes were planned from the start. I utilized the balance holes to create Asymmetry and the ball motion I was looking for.
Plug the balance holes and I have Symmetrical layouts not tuned to my release.

I have Symmetrical balls drilled with balance holes that spin up faster on the DeTerminator than actual Asymmetrical balls.
I put a lot of thought into the layouts and balance holes to create a well rounded arsenal with a large variety of coverstocks not available with Asymmetric cores.

I am going to have to basically start over.

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:27 pm Post Number: #83 Post
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Nord wrote:
The diff of the ball and the layout are what cause track flare.
I am a very low rev bowler, but on my Widow Urethane ball and my Crow Urethane, both of which have high flare layouts on high diff cores, I am getting between 5 and 6 lines of flare.
I imagine a high rev bowler would get higher than 6 lines more closely spaced, maybe double that amount.
If the USBC is afraid of lane breakdown and oil depletion, then limit the diffs on balls so they do not flare much, even for high rev bowlers.

The USBC has already lowered the total differential to .060
A Balance hole can raise the differential even higher so they eliminated them. Effectively lowering the flare potential.

From the sound of it we are going to see less oil on the lanes so the hook monsters of today will be rendered obsolete. The demand will go up for weaker equipment including the forum favorite :lol: Urethane.

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:32 pm Post Number: #84 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
From the sound of it we are going to see less oil on the lanes so the hook monsters of today will be rendered obsolete. The demand will go up for weaker equipment including the forum favorite :lol: Urethane.


Highly doubt that.
Marketing will continue to sell balls.
Manufacturers will experiment with different additive packages and base resins to give different motions.

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 12:38 am Post Number: #85 Post
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Nord wrote:
The diff of the ball and the layout are what cause track flare.
I am a very low rev bowler, but on my Widow Urethane ball and my Crow Urethane, both of which have high flare layouts on high diff cores, I am getting between 5 and 6 lines of flare.
I imagine a high rev bowler would get higher than 6 lines more closely spaced, maybe double that amount.
If the USBC is afraid of lane breakdown and oil depletion, then limit the diffs on balls so they do not flare much, even for high rev bowlers.


Yes, higher diffs can produce more flair. But, we are also talking about bowling balls that can / do absorb oil. The amount of oil absorption that can be created by high rev players in comparison to low rev players is substantial. For example, ladies can stay on the second arrow (assuming that is where the shot is) for a much longer period of time compared to high rev men players using the exact, same equipment.


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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 12:42 am Post Number: #86 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
From the sound of it we are going to see less oil on the lanes so the hook monsters of today will be rendered obsolete. The demand will go up for weaker equipment including the forum favorite Urethane.


MegaMav wrote:
Highly doubt that.
Marketing will continue to sell balls.
Manufacturers will experiment with different additive packages and base resins to give different motions.

When you look at what the USBC has published about these changes they lead off with the amount of oil used today vs. what was use in yesteryear. Saying this trend can't continue.

http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net ... TS-FAQ.pdf

From the frequently asked questions the USBC put out...

"To protect bowling’s future:
• USBC is eliminating balance holes
• Setting a new specification for oil absorption
• The overall result will slightly limit hook potential
USBC research shows these changes will:
• Slow oil pattern transition
• Cause bowlers to move less
Keep the same scoring pace with lower oil volume"

The way I see it we are in for a change in our lane conditions. It may not be right away but in the near future.

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:28 am Post Number: #87 Post
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EricHartwell wrote:
The way I see it we are in for a change in our lane conditions. It may not be right away but in the near future.


Oil volume in itself means nothing.
Viscosity of the oil and its ability to hold up over time mean more.
Dont expect a change in lane oil composition to roll back technology.
This is merely to stop the escalation and give control back to the people putting the conditioner out.

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:55 am Post Number: #88 Post
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We do not need to plug or stop using balance holes unless we plan to play on a USBC sanctioned league or event.

On another note, it would be great for no thumb bowlers if Mo would print out a drill sheet for symmetrical balls with marked PSA location for 6 very common pin locations:
1) Pin above RF
2) Pin below RF
3) Pin besides RF
4) Pin above bridge
5) Pin below bridge
6) Full Roller

Just determine the drilled balls and mark the PSA in the drilling instructions so we know before we buy. Of course this would have to be done for every different core.

...and speaking of full rollers, they will now have even less layout options...


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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:04 am Post Number: #89 Post
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Speaking of symmetrical balls, a higher ratio layout would produce a more aggressive backend reaction correct? That’s why if for example we drill a no thumb ball 1” above the bridge and one 3” above the bridge the later would read friction harder, because of the lower VAL...

What if we dril a 4” pin to cg symmetrical, no thumb, with the finger holes 3.5” deep directly 1” under the cg... this would be like a ball drilled with no finger holes and only a thumb hole because essentially the finger holes would be hitting the core and removing mass more or less where a traditional thumbhole would be... comments?


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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:20 am Post Number: #90 Post
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[/quote]This is merely to stop the escalation and give control back to the people putting the conditioner out.[/quote]

Collusion!


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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:38 am Post Number: #91 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
This is merely to stop the escalation and give control back to the people putting the conditioner out.[/quote]

Collusion![/quote]
As I said before, I am not against the change.
I actually want more severe change.
But I am selfish in saying this since I am finding that balls that have a low hook potential, or shall I say, low backend with early roll and hook, work better for me.
Tonight in league I did not use the True Motion with Axis drill but used my Grizz.
It showed it has a stronger reaction and much more shape than the True Motion.
I did well with it. Had some amazing strikes.
A 1989 urethane ball with a label drill and pancake weight block with conventional grip on a modern house shot.
Why again are reactive resin balls needed?

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:42 am Post Number: #92 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
Collusion!


After the USBC/BPAA merger are you all that surprised?
They've done the most gutless thing possible, deflect responsibility to those that dont have a seat at the table in Arlington. Pro shops and bowlers.

I hope USBC gags like a dog on this over the next decade.

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:55 am Post Number: #93 Post
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Nord wrote:
This is merely to stop the escalation and give control back to the people putting the conditioner out.

[/color]
Collusion![/quote]
As I said before, I am not against the change.
I actually want more severe change.
But I am selfish in saying this since I am finding that balls that have a low hook potential, or shall I say, low backend with early roll and hook, work better for me.
Tonight in league I did not use the True Motion with Axis drill but used my Grizz.
It showed it has a stronger reaction and much more shape than the True Motion.
I did well with it. Had some amazing strikes.
A 1989 urethane ball with a label drill and pancake weight block with conventional grip on a modern house shot.
Why again are reactive resin balls needed?[/quote]

Not everyone bowls like you. You believe you bowl good because you can score high on a recreational pattern. Again, join a sport league and you will understand. Some things are best learned by experience, a flatter sport pattern is very different than playing with adult bumpers.


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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 6:37 am Post Number: #94 Post
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Quote:
TonyPR
Not everyone bowls like you. You believe you bowl good because you can score high on a recreational pattern. Again, join a sport league and you will understand. Some things are best learned by experience, a flatter sport pattern is very different than playing with adult bumpers.


Funny you should mention this.
Actually for our Poway weekly tournament the house allowed us to put down any Brunswick Sport shots we wanted.
We bowled on the the following sport shots:
The 36 foot Phase 1, 2.3:1.
The 40 foot Edge, 1.7:1.
The 43 foot Phantom, 1.3:1.
The 48 foot Max, 2.9:1.

The results?

I bowled way better on all of these patterns than I do on a house shot!
I only used my Grizz bowling ball at 500 grit.
I had several 200 plus games and averaged higher on all the patterns than I do on a house shot.
Additionally, I loved these sport shots because they are very predictable.
If you miss right, you miss right.
if you miss left, you miss left.
And here is the best part, if you make a good shot, you are rewarded!
No last minute house shot tricks.
Also, the pattern broke down in a very predictable fashion.
As a whole, these patterns were truer than a house shot.
I wish all leagues used flatter patterns like these.
I have said it before, I hate house shots and find them harder to play than the Sport shots I have played on.

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 12:48 pm Post Number: #95 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

After the USBC/BPAA merger are you all that surprised?
They've done the most gutless thing possible, deflect responsibility to those that dont have a seat at the table in Arlington. Pro shops and bowlers.

I hope USBC gags like a dog on this over the next decade.


You got me there.

Up until this point in time, I honestly felt good about what I do. That is, look at the condition, adjust the ball to defeat that condition, and win. In my mind, it wasn't what you had in the bag, but ultimately, what you did with it.

I have been to small manufactures seminars where the bowler representing the company could not get the ball to face up in that house, on that pattern. Was it bad equipment? Not really. It was obvious to me, the ball had the wrong surface. If a professional can't visualize and respond almost instantly, how in the world does the average bowler have a chance.

The intent of the proposed regulations is idealism at it's best.

No other sport combines an ultra slick surface and a high friction surface. Now, try to play on it with a round, relatively hard object. In order to be effective, the sphere must respond in a particular manner too. It just makes sense, some sort of alterations might need to be made on the fly. That has been taken away from us.


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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 1:52 pm Post Number: #96 Post
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Nord wrote:

Funny you should mention this.
Actually for our Poway weekly tournament the house allowed us to put down any Brunswick Sport shots we wanted.
We bowled on the the following sport shots:
The 36 foot Phase 1, 2.3:1.
The 40 foot Edge, 1.7:1.
The 43 foot Phantom, 1.3:1.
The 48 foot Max, 2.9:1.

The results?

I bowled way better on all of these patterns than I do on a house shot!
I only used my Grizz bowling ball at 500 grit.
I had several 200 plus games and averaged higher on all the patterns than I do on a house shot.
Additionally, I loved these sport shots because they are very predictable.
If you miss right, you miss right.
if you miss left, you miss left.
And here is the best part, if you make a good shot, you are rewarded!
No last minute house shot tricks.
Also, the pattern broke down in a very predictable fashion.
As a whole, these patterns were truer than a house shot.
I wish all leagues used flatter patterns like these.
I have said it before, I hate house shots and find them harder to play than the Sport shots I have played on.



Ok you win, I’ll shut up... gonna go work on my game to see if I can lose 7 mph and 300 rpms...


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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:34 pm Post Number: #97 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
You believe you bowl good because you can score high on a recreational pattern...Ok you win, I’ll shut up... gonna go work on my game to see if I can lose 7 mph and 300 rpms...

Oh, I don't win at all.
I don't think I bowl well, especially on house shots.
I actually wish I was a better bowler.
If I could have a more consistent release so the ball got the same rotations and roll each time and I was much more accurate, able to hit my target more precisely, then, with just those two changes, I would be a much better bowler.
The only point I was making is that, high revs and modern tech are not really necessary to high scoring.
All that is necessary is an oil pattern with sufficient friction to allow a particular ball type to grab at some point in the lane properly.
Once that is achieved, then simple pancake weight block balls of low friction and zero oil absorbing properties and simple label drills are all that a bowler needs.
The rest is then up to them.
That is the kind of competition I would like to see, at least in some tournaments.
Every bowler must use the same ball with the same layout.
Then we watch how they bowl and see who is best that day.

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 2:57 pm Post Number: #98 Post
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After watching videos of Nord, He's a pretty consistent and a more down and in bowler. So his slower speed and low rev's isn't necessarily a hindrance.

He just has to be more accurate, Because using that full roller release, he doesn't have the power/rev's others have.

IMO the patterns wouldn't affect him in quite the same way as they would the more common out and back player.

He says he has a harder time on the THS vs Flatter patterns.

I might could see that because IMO with the flatter patterns, if he pulls or leaks the ball out. There's not as big a difference on either side of his line as he would see on the THS, do the pattern being flatter. So He has kind of better control and can keep it in the pocket more.

On the THS with it's high ratio, He's got a puddle to the left and all that dry right. So if he pulls it or throws out, ball is either going to skid a lot or probably rollout and come in light (which is in alot of the videos the ball coming in light.)

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 3:08 pm Post Number: #99 Post
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Nord wrote:
All that is necessary is an oil pattern with sufficient friction to allow a particular ball type to grab at some point in the lane properly.
Once that is achieved, then simple pancake weight block balls of low friction and zero oil absorbing properties and simple label drills are all that a bowler needs.
The rest is then up to them.
That is the kind of competition I would like to see, at least in some tournaments.
Every bowler must use the same ball with the same layout.
Then we watch how they bowl and see who is best that day.


Nord, the Teen Masters already does this. Only allowing PBA skill balls made by EBI and the bowlers choice of plastic.

Here's a post with comments from the organizer, Jim, guru and a quote from Mo that I think coveys some information worth reading: http://forum.bowlingchat.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11377&hilit=teen+masters+beck&start=20

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 Post subject: Re: USBC New Ball Specs
 Posted: Tue May 01, 2018 4:32 pm Post Number: #100 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
After watching videos of Nord, He's a pretty consistent and a more down and in bowler. So his slower speed and low rev's isn't necessarily a hindrance.

He just has to be more accurate, Because using that full roller release, he doesn't have the power/rev's others have.

IMO the patterns wouldn't affect him in quite the same way as they would the more common out and back player.

He says he has a harder time on the THS vs Flatter patterns.

I might could see that because IMO with the flatter patterns, if he pulls or leaks the ball out. There's not as big a difference on either side of his line as he would see on the THS, do the pattern being flatter. So He has kind of better control and can keep it in the pocket more.

On the THS with it's high ratio, He's got a puddle to the left and all that dry right. So if he pulls it or throws out, ball is either going to skid a lot or probably rollout and come in light (which is in alot of the videos the ball coming in light.)

You have perfectly described my situation.
Bowling on Sport shots was a revelation.
It was so much better and more enjoyable and fair.
It all came down to shot making and control.
The pattern did not fight my good shots.
Invariably what would happen at Poway is we would bowl our sport shot and I would be scoring high and winning or placing second with scores in the 190's or 200's, then we would move right to start league on the house shot and I would be struggling to score in the 150's!
The house shot would not compliment my control game because it made all my shots twitchy and unpredictable.

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