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 Post subject: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 3:46 am Post Number: #1 Post
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I am not sure how to word this either.

At the start of tonight, the breakpoint was 8 board (1st game went at 265 pace at start of 10th frame). The breakpoint burnt out and any ball thrown on the 8 board or outside of it rolled out if it went across it. (Usually I look at the bottom of the 6 pin, then the breakpoint (8 board at the start of the outermost range finder), then the arrows and throw the ball along that line. So my usual line is something like lay down point 13 to 10 at arrows out to 8. I realized that that 7 8 etc were like dead zones at the breakpoint so I tried to move left and throw and try to get it around 10 at the breakpoint and in. I threw like 6 balls. ( I balled up a little for more cover on it also). 4/6 went out to 8, 1 hit 10 and 1 I pulled left. I tried looking at the bottom left of the 6 pin, 10 at the breakpoint and then 13 at the arrows. I still was going too out. None of the balls were rolling to early. I had to wipe oil off every shot I threw.

The question is should 10 have been the breakpoint? If 10 is the breakpoint and I miss even 1 board to the right it rolled out. Should I brought that in even more? Then another question is how do you keep from throwing the ball out too far to the right of the breakpoint? Maybe decrease my body angle toward the pins? Should I be looking at the bottom of the 6 or move it to the bottom of the 3 pin?

I was extremely frustrated today. I tried everything trying to keep the breakpoint in. I got discuraged, and moved back right. I started with a radical ridiculous and then balled down to a fanatic BTU. I threw the ball straight up 8 board hoping that the ball liked lighter oil etc. The ball made no hook at all and hit the right of the 3 pin. I did an experiment and took out the rotogrip hustle drilled pin down and threw it around 9 at the breakpoint and I actually struck twice in a row. The next shots started rolling out. I had to slow the ball speed down from 17 to 14 to get the ball to start hooking earlier so it would roll before old breakpoint. There is nothing more disappointing then leaving 2 solid 10 pins, then moving a board left changing up where it hits at the arrows etc and slowing the ball down just a slight bit, competely changing the look of the hook and then leaving another soild 10 pin.

I got off track there. The question is how do you adjust not getting the ball out to far right and missing the breakpoint to the right? I can do it using the 2nd arrow. I don't know how to do it to the left of it. At the 2nd arrow you can throw straight down the thing. If you are shooting 13 and want to get to 10 you can't throw straight down 13.

I am going to set up an apointment with the IRTC sometime soon

I will work on How to project the ball out, Also now I want to work on how to keep the ball in and not let it get out too far. All this has to do with playing inside.


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:39 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Open your angles and trust it. Trust is a must. No trust and you will pull every time.


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:28 am Post Number: #3 Post
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I am not sure if that is correct or not. I thought you open your shoulders up to project more outward. If you don't want to project it is far out and play straighter the shoulders should not be open up so much?


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 5:49 am Post Number: #4 Post
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Krava: I am not understanding what you are trying to accomplish. Can you rephrase your question?

The title of this thread is: "Controling [sic] the breakpoint [sic] (not going inside of it)"

So, my understanding is that you do not want to miss to the left of your break point, right? Yet when LookingForALeftyWall suggests to "Open your angles and trust it. Trust is a must. No trust and you will pull every time," you respond with:
krava wrote:
I am not sure if that is correct or not. I thought you open your shoulders up to project more outward. If you don't want to project it is far out and play straighter the shoulders should not be open up so much?

Aren't you contradicting your question?


Next paragraph your question changes to . . .
krava wrote:
The question is should 10 have been the breakpoint [sic]?

And later in your post . . .
krava wrote:
I tried everything trying to keep the breakpoint [sic] in. I got discuraged [sic], and moved back right.

So now you don't want to go right of your break point? And yet you moved right to avoid rolling the ball too far right?

And yet later in your post . . .
krava wrote:
The question is how do you adjust not getting the ball out to [sic] far right and missing the breakpoint [sic] to the right?

If I am reading this correctly, at this point you have asked 3 different questions. If you can resolve this, maybe someone might be able to help you.
krava wrote:
I got off track there.

Really? You realized that you had gotten off track, and yet instead of editing your written comments you left it all in. Why?

And lastly, you summarize what you are going to work on. . . .
krava wrote:
I will work on How to project the ball out . . .

And later in the same sentence . . .
krava wrote:
Also now I want to work on how to keep the ball in and not let it get out too far.

Do you see why I am confused?


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 7:22 am Post Number: #5 Post
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let me retype this:

This is what happened. There were a lot of bowlers playing basically straight down 8 or from 10 to 8 to the pocket. I also tried to wear out 6 and 7 before we bowled so I can have miss room to the right. What happened was game 1 we wore out all the boards 8 to the gutter. If the ball got anywhere right of 8 or so it would just roll out and not hook at all.

This is different from the time where I have posted and the lanes got dry and I wanted to move left and get the ball out to 7 or 8 and back in.

The problem this time was everything right of 8 is a dead zone so stay away. I need everything to go left of 10 or on 10. Even the BTU died when I rolled straight down 8.

So I really have 2 problems. #1 when I move left, I can't get the ball to project outward enough. I can't get the ball to go basically from 20 at the laydown point over 14 out to 9 and back in. Usually I hit 14 and roll it out to 11. This is when the shoulders should be opened up and I believe the 1st targeted at the pins should go right to fix.

#2 the problem I encounted that night. I moved left but I couldn't keep the ball to the left of 10. I go it too far out. I was throwing 20 over 13 out to 8 and back, but when I hit 8 the ball rolled out and took out the 3 pin. It basically hit too much dry and over reacted and died out. it could been a combination of dry board and carry down since there was a lot of plastic going down there too. I haven't really encountered this reaction until tonight. usually it gets too dry and I got to stay away but I can get it out to 8 and it would snap back inside.

I think the problem is the way I am targeting. I am trying to do the 3 point quiet eye. I am not sure how to adjust for it when I move to the left. You move your 1st target to the right when you move to the left. The question is what if you move your breakpoint to the left. Don't you move your eyes back left instead of right also?

I have to contact the IRTC and see if they can teach me this stuff. The problem is I need to have a lane condition to practice this on. I hope that clears things up?


Seventeen I see where the mixup is. I tried moving left for like 6-7 shots or so. I completely abanoned the idea of movie left because I missed the headpin so many times. I don't usually miss the headpin at all a game. My 2nd game was almost an all spare game. I was going to the 8th frame with an all spare game I think.

I moved back right because I was going to "force" something to happen. I took the rotogrip hustle. It is my only pin down ball. It is drilled for control so it won't over react. I struck the first 2 times with it. I hit the pocket almost every time with it after that. I just couldn't carry anything and left alot of 10 pins. If I used the hustle and it woudln't make it to the pocket, i would have gone back left and tried to deal with the lanes the best I can because that was my last ditch effort was to move right with a very light reactive ball. The BTU is like 500 or 1500 gritt, it has too much surface for the lane condition and died out. The Hustle is highly polished so it went down the lane further. The Hustle had a shot 10 to 8-9 and back in.


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 1:57 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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krava wrote:
So I really have 2 problems. #1 when I move left, I can't get the ball to project outward enough. I can't get the ball to go basically from 20 at the laydown point over 14 out to 9 and back in. Usually I hit 14 and roll it out to 11. This is when the shoulders should be opened up and I believe the 1st targeted at the pins should go right to fix.



Quote:
#2 the problem I encounted that night. I moved left but I couldn't keep the ball to the left of 10. I go it too far out. I was throwing 20 over 13 out to 8 and back, but when I hit 8 the ball rolled out and took out the 3 pin.


Let's get this straight:
Problem #1 is you can't project the ball outward enough.

Problem #2 is you project the ball outward too much.

Quote:
I think the problem is the way I am targeting. I am trying to do the 3 point quiet eye. I am not sure how to adjust for it when I move to the left.


Problem #3 is your trying to use the Quiet Eye system, but don't understand how to use it.

Quote:
I have to contact the IRTC and see if they can teach me this stuff.

Yes, Coaching should help.


Quote:
Seventeen I see where the mixup is. I tried moving left for like 6-7 shots or so. I completely abanoned the idea of movie left because I missed the headpin so many times. I don't usually miss the headpin at all a game. My 2nd game was almost an all spare game. I was going to the 8th frame with an all spare game I think.

I moved back right because I was going to "force" something to happen. I took the rotogrip hustle. It is my only pin down ball. It is drilled for control so it won't over react. I struck the first 2 times with it. I hit the pocket almost every time with it after that. I just couldn't carry anything and left alot of 10 pins. If I used the hustle and it woudln't make it to the pocket, i would have gone back left and tried to deal with the lanes the best I can because that was my last ditch effort was to move right with a very light reactive ball.


Quote:
The BTU is like 500 or 1500 gritt,

That's a big range in grit, You should make a list of what grit your balls are surfaced at. That way when you discuss them, you don't have to guess or speculate on what it was.

I make a list to keep track of how I sand and what surface I use.

heres a simple one to print out:
Attachment:
maintenance log.jpg


Quote:
The Hustle had a shot 10 to 8-9 and back in.


This contradicts stuff above like where you say "The problem this time was everything right of 8 is a dead zone so stay away. I need everything to go left of 10 or on 10."

It seems your mixing things together that happen on different nights, which make everything confusing.

Quote:
I hope that clears things up?


IMO it didn't


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Sun Apr 08, 2018 2:27 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Krava, a couple of things to check out in your game.

I too have always had issues getting the ball to the right the deeper I play, although it's been getting better. One item is the crossover step (step two of a five step approach). Mark Baker has noted that those bowlers who do not do this, have a lot of trouble getting the ball to the right when having to play deep.

My main issue is when I get too much forward waist bend too early, which is usually always accompanied with late timing, I pull it left of target, but most important, it's WAY left at the breakpoint. I think the main reason it's left so much at the breakpoint is this mistake will cause the ball to read way too early.

Lately, I've been improving in this aspect, and what I notice is I'm much more accurate, and most important, the ball goes way further down the lane and to the right and makes a better move on the back end. This last Thursday in league, I had a number of shots where I pulled it a board left, but most of them held and struck, and one or two left an easy spare, like a 4 pin. It seems the better my body position and timing is, the more room for error I have, left and right. I had a few shots where I missed two full boards right at the arrows, and it came back for a flush strike (thank you lane man!).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall you ever posting a video for Coach Jim to analyze. If not, it might be wise to do so, as he would point out any physical flaws that might be contributing to this issue. This way, you'll be fixing problems and not symptoms.


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:36 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Bowl1820 let me try to start off:

practice used Storm match solid OOBS to burn up 6 7 board
moved to Radical Ridiculous OOBS played 10 to 8 to the pocket , also 11 to 8 (ball started to roll out)
Went to Hammer Bad intensions Hybrid OOBS 13 trying to get to 10 but kept putting it inside of 10
Went back right since Couldn't make the shot from 13 to 10 and used BTU up 8 and ball went almost straight.
Grabbed Hustle played 10 to 8 and was fine there.

other balls I had:
Hammer ripped: No use in using that because I would probably be at 15 trying to go to 10
Storm Hy-Road: Ball has about as much surface as ridiculous with less backend and would died
Storm Timeless: Ball is super polished, it could might have worked but too strong of a cover for dried or dead backends:


Anyone have the email for the IRTC in Dallas? I don't know if I need half day or full day. It seems they don't have time on Saturday's for lessons so I have to deal with that hell traffic. I tried to book and appointment but don't ant to schecule 1/2 day when need full day trying to figure this thing out. I called twice now even left a number and got no response. Email would be easier


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2018 6:06 am Post Number: #9 Post
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So you basically played the same 'Zone' all nite long w/ 4 different balls only making at most a 2-3 bd. parallel move? That is NOT adjusting to the conditions. If you were in the 'dead zone' nothing you did mattered, as you saw. Bad ball reaction is bad ball reaction. You still refuse to give up the 2nd arrow when needed and the lanes are 'screaming' at you to MOVE! That means get the hell outta dodge and that is NOT a 2-3 bd. adjustment to transition when you HAVE a good look & just need a small move to maintain it. Staying in the same place & grabbing 4 different balls hoping it might work is fishing w/ no clue using a only a 2 bd belly. You'd have been better off trying the rip'd @ 15 out to 10 as you stated for a starter & probably had gone deeper from there, say 17/18 to 12/13. This has been told to you by sooooo many for sooooo long to no avail. But you refuse to give up that 2nd arrow 'zone' and camp out there waiting for the shot to come to you. When it's there it's el dorado, when it's not it's el diablo, or something!

Try this pg. for a few answers etc.:
http://www.bowlersreference.com/Approach/Targeting/

Here is also a visual aid you can use to map out your lines:


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Last edited by imagonman on Tue Apr 10, 2018 6:15 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 5:56 am Post Number: #10 Post
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that is what the IRTC is for. Have to go there to learn how to play left. I have no idea how to do it. ALmost no one in the bowling alley goes left of 14. I don't mind doing it, I just need to learn how to do it. You are right the lanes were screaming go left but I still don't know how to do it. I can go left when I have backends that will bring me back. When the backends are tight, I am in severe trouble. I am going to try to call that place again tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:45 am Post Number: #11 Post
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Went to practice tonight. I bowled on lanes that were bowled on by 5 man teams, these are good league bowlers. Most where throwing in the track area and some where throwing closer if not on 3rd arrow. When they were done I started. I didn't throw any practice shots at all. I concentrated on throwing 3rd arrow, or where I needed to, to the left and trying to get it around 10 at the breakpoint.

1st Game: https://youtu.be/DNmCnD9yxkQ
(didn't know where to stand or which ball to throw. You will see several times in this video that the yellow ball hit 8 and then rolled out not even trying to hit the headpin. I have no idea what causes that).

2nd game: https://youtu.be/AfMjAdTVjwA
Did better threw it pretty good, atleast got some kind of arc out of the ball at the end.

3rd game: https://youtu.be/C_isEguuank
Got alot of 10 pins, didn't move left until too late.

Score Card: https://ibb.co/jGQ6Ux

I half ass threw at the spares. I am not worried about spares. I can deal with that. So I didn't concentrate on that. My Left oblique muscle and just below it hurts. I am not used to turning sideways and walking straight throwing diagonal.

You have to understand that I was throwing the ball like Nord, but about 17mph up until 1 year ago. Then I started to throw it 3/4 roller style. Then the past 3-4 months (if that), I finally am staying behind the ball or atleast doing a better job or something at it. My experience with this release is really new. Also throwing the ball left of 2nd arrow is way out of my comfort zone. I still think that the IRTC has a little to work with with this. I don't think I am completely hopeless trying to throw the ball from inside. I have only practiced this a few times. (less then 5 for sure).


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:12 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Looks like you are just rolling down third arrow instead of swinging it. Do you not have any strong pearls with a strong layout? Stand in your comfort zone and learn to swing it out past the 5th board and further so you can learn to roll the ball that’ll cover a 10 board swing using the driest part of the lane. Until you learn that getting in is still going to be a challenge.

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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 5:07 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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Quote:
I half ass threw at the spares. I am not worried about spares. I can deal with that. So I didn't concentrate on that. My Left oblique muscle and just below it hurts. I am not used to turning sideways and walking straight throwing diagonal.


You're wasting valuable practice time. On each spare pretend you're the anchor man on your team, competing for the league championship. In the 10th frame you need that spare to win.

If you don't concentrate on your spares you can get into bad habits that carry over into competition. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:06 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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I have a C300 Swerve FX that is drilled for max back end. That is the only decent peal I have. The pearl used in game 1 was a Storm match Pearl I believe drilled to tame the backend but it might be just control. I have very bad luck with pearls because they go so long and just die and never hook.

The other ball in the video is a Hammer bad intentions Hybrid. I have a Storm Timeless but I think it is more of a Hybrid also. Which pearl do you recommend and how would you tell them to drill it?

The ball isn't going straight down 3rd. it is going 3rd arrow out to 10 and back. The video doesn't give it justice. There is a slope to the ball and a curve going out. It does look kind of straight in the video.

Swinging the ball over a 10 board area. From 15 to 5, I will have to get someone to show me. So I know what I have to do it "project it out more" With this condition I don't think it was a good idea to do so. I have been to bowling alleys where getting it out from 15 to 5 would work though. Oil bowl Longview and Maverick Lanes in Marshall.


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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 12:04 am Post Number: #15 Post
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I just want you to hit up on the ball and make it go high. Once you can do that you might get that “ah-ha” moment. You already throw to the 8 board, just aim for the 5. Could be you need to bring the breakpoint closer to you, get a banana shape going. As far as balls go, talk to your PSO.
You might need something that hooks early so you can see a motion. See below

https://youtu.be/lNO_XYDrxEo

https://youtu.be/U2XuxWSrbjQ

https://youtu.be/xXiXQ0Z93Eg

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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:08 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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Just for reference Body Alignment:

Chris Barnes and Chris Paul on versatility (outside, middle & inside Angles)


Match Your Body Angle to Your Shot

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 Post subject: Re: Controling the breakpoint (not going inside of it)
 Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 9:10 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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If you aren't worrying about spares, why waste time even shooting at them? Why not re-rack and take another strike shot - or just throw another strike shot without the pins? Stop worrying about strikes and scoring. You are there to practice.

Throwing your hands in the air at every miss is doing nothing either. All that frustration is just going to compound to make matters worst. You need to relax and trust yourself. You're there trying to learn something new. Muscle memory is trying to take over. Give it a chance and give it time.

Believe me, I know this all too well. I have my own issues trying to get deeper and being consistent with the swing.

Also, whoever is filming and commentating is not helping the situation. Get better angles of video and less focus on how many pins you knocked down.


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