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 Post subject: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Mon Jan 08, 2018 6:10 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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An ongoing discussion here and on other bowling sites focuses on how to anticipate needed adjustments before leaving something ugly.

Here is an exercise that you can do to help you to develop this skill:

Each time you bowl, watch all of the other bowlers on your pair; both on your team and the other. See what they do, not with regards to score, but in regards to ball motion and pin action. Make sure that you relate their result with the particular lane on which they bowl. Next, see if you can guess what they will do on their next shot, based on their ball reactions.

For instance, if you are watching the bowlers on the other team as they bowl on the left lane, and you see their lead-off man leave a solid four pin, their second man cross over to the Brooklyn side, their third man leave a four-nine split, and their anchor man throw a high-flush strike, what do you think that your lead-off man will do? If you are that lead-off man, what are you going to do considering that every bowler who just bowled that lane went high to some degree? If you answered that it all depends on what you did on your last shot on that lane, then you have totally missed the point of the exercise.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:46 am Post Number: #2 Post
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This is very good strategy if everyone that is bowling are good bowlers though. if your bowling with average or even under 150 average bowlers that could be pretty difficult. First you would have to watch and learn where everyone on that team bowls at and about what speed they throw it at and what mark. If your sitting on the left and your watching on the right, it might be hard to see where they hit at the arrows because they are in the way or someone else or something else is in the way. If you don't know where they bowl at and you see 2 people go high and 2 people strike then you might not learn anything.

If it were me, if I had a "real team", I would have a lot of communication between me and someone else. So if I am bowling 4th position and then the 1st position person comes back after what looks to be a bad shot, if he knows he threw it correctly he can tell everyone on the team that they are starting to go high now. It can be whatever, if the guys ball suddenly slides all the way down the lane they can come back and tell people on the team what happened. I understand you can watch someone and see what happens but what if they didn't throw the ball correctly? They could hit their mark, do the same speed but then they came out of the ball wrong like a broken wrist or tried to turn the ball and get more revs or something. If I break my wrist and throw it correctly, usually I leave a flat 10 because of that.

To me it is hard to see if the lanes are changing when you don't know the full story on what happened. The only one that knows the full story is the one that threw the ball. I can't answer the question "did the ball feel good off the hand?" I can't go and ask the opposing team that.

If there is nothing but like 210+ average people bowling, then you can assume everyone knows what they are doing and throws pretty good shots most of the time. I haven't been on a team like that even remotely. I am bowling on Wednesday when this league starts up for the 2nd half, and my partner is suppose to be a left handed 2 hander with an average like mine. Watching him I don't think is going to do any good because his area is completely different from mine. He plays between 1st and 2nd arrow or so on the left side and I am all the way on the other.

one of my questions is, how will it benefit me watching someone throw plastic straight down the middle? What it does is alert me that there will be carry down in the middle that I will have to deal with.


What you posted is very good strategy for high average bowlers bowling on a pair and I really never though about watching them and seeing what happens until you mentioned it before in that "survey" you did for your write up. I have adjusted before disaster strikes. If I throw the ball good and it hits high and strikes, I will make a move. I don't care if I have 10 in a row if it is good off my hand and then hits high a move will happen.

Lately though, I am not hitting high, I hit the pocket and then all of a sudden I lose my ball motion and it slides down and burns up. How do you tell a ball is about to burn up before it does? The only way I know that answer is if I hit the pocket and it hits really weak and then the ball exit the 9 or around 9 pin and sort of bounces off and then strikes and lucky I didn't leave a 10 pin or pocket split.

Take last Thursday, I thought I had some kind of shot when I started, it wasn't a reliable shot (no room for error at all which is probably playing in the wrong spot or using the wrong ball). I started hitting Brooklyn and then I moved left. I moved left the ball went right missed the head pin. I went through 5 different balls the end of the 1st all the way through the 2nd game trying everything. I moved 2 and 2 with a more aggressive ball, 1st ball struck, 2nd ball slid and left 124 10. Moved up to my most aggressive ball, Hammer scandal moved 2 and 2 again threw 1 shot, ball didn't come back and I slowed it down. I think I was aiming at 10 or 11 at the breakpoint, maybe if I had 12 or 13 at the breakpoint I might have struck? Long story short I pulled out a rotogrip Hustle INK drilled pin down with control. Instead of shooting 13 board I went back right to 8 board and hit Brooklyn but it was good ball motion, I didn't see that the entire day. I said humm should I move more right and try 6 board with more speed? I thought about it and decided to move left and stand where I started when I began. Threw the ball over the 2nd arrow out to 8 and then started to strike. I struck the last 5/6 balls I threw with a split after the 2nd strike I think (threw the ball wrong on that split shot). I hate pulling balls out of my bag trying this and that. I ended up with 158 in the 2nd. I just don't think you can throw a big hook when there is so many plastic balls going up the middle all night. I have no idea why that rotogrip ball worked when none of my other balls would work. The track area couldn't be dried up because no one was using it and if I threw a storm timeless it would slide way too far and hit the 3 pin and the rotogrip Hustle INK is a much weaker ball. I went back right because I said to myself there is too much carry down to cut through and I need something weak so I can get in the dry and go around that carry down.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 2:03 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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If, as you stated in another thread, you were to come to Vegas and see me for a lesson, would you argue that everything that I told you wouldn't work? That's exactly what you are doing here.

EVERY SINGLE BALL THAT GOES DOWN THE LANE HAS AN EFFECT. I don't care if a ball is plastic and thrown by a 100 average bowler, or is highly aggressive reactive resin thrown by a 230 average bowler, each will affect the lane. Your job is to notice patterns as the balls reach the pins. This, by the way, is not only on your pair, but on other pairs around you, as the total number of balls thrown over a set period of time will tend to yield similar results.

The next time you pay enough attention to see that balls are starting to come in light on your pair leaving two pins, two-four-fives, dinner buckets, five-sevens, seven-tens, weak sevens, or washouts, look around you and don't be surprised if you see similar leaves increasing on other pairs.

By the way, as I've said to you many, many times in the past, where balls are crossing the arrows is totally irrelevant. It's where they are exiting the pattern that makes a difference.

Enough over-thinking. Take a look around you. I know from experience that this strategy works in recreational leagues as it does in high average leagues, if you'll just stop arguing for a minute and try it!


Last edited by RobMautner on Tue Jan 09, 2018 11:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 4:17 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
If, as you stated in another thread, you were to come to Vegas and see me for a lesson, would you argue that everything that I told you wouldn't work? That's exactly what you are doing here.

EVERY SINGLE BALL THAT GOES DOWN THE LANE AFFECTS HAS AN EFFECT. I don't care if a ball is plastic and thrown by a 100 average bowler, or is highly aggressive reactive resin thrown by a 230 average bowler, each will affect the lane. Your job is to notice patterns as the balls reach the pins. This, by the way, is not only on your pair, but on other pairs around you, as the total number of balls thrown over a set period of time will tend to yield similar results.

The next time you pay enough attention to see that balls are starting to come in light on your pair leaving two pins, two-four-fives, dinner buckets, five-sevens, seven-tens, weak sevens, or washouts, look around you and don't be surprised if you see similar leaves increasing on other pairs.

By the way, as I've said to you many, many times in the past, where balls are crossing the arrows is totally irrelevant. It's where they are exiting the pattern that makes a difference.

Enough over-thinking. Take a look around you. I know from experience that this strategy works in recreational leagues as it does in high average leagues, if you'll just stop arguing for a minute and try it!


Have to agree w/ Rob 265%!!! EVERY week you see it, again & again. Whatever trend is happening on your own pair {light leaves or heavy} you look around on adjacent lanes & lo and behold, wouldn't you know it, same same! Must be contagious or something , huh?


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:37 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
The next time you pay enough attention to see that balls are starting to come in light on your pair leaving two pins, two-four-fives, dinner buckets, five-sevens, seven-tens, weak sevens, or washouts, look around you and don't be surprised if you see similar leaves increasing on other pairs.


I see that happen all the time, like on our lanes both teams start having the save leaves. Then You look around at the lanes next to you and their leaving the same ones .

If the teams on the lanes next to you are farther along, it can give you some warning.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:31 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Yes, I noticed this last night because we were running a few frames behind the closest pairs.
First game, typical scoring. Second game, strike fest! Third game, sea of red with loads of splits.

Our team had a great game two, and stayed ahead of the transition in game three.
Made timely moves and maintained the scoring through game three.

It certainly helps to have teammates who communicate and roll consistently enough where they can tell a good shot from a bad, from changing conditions. Regardless, there is data out there if you are looking for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Tue Jan 09, 2018 9:36 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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Many times when I have attended PBA tournaments, I've seen bowlers walk to the pair they're headed to next to watch the ball reaction of the bowlers presently on that pair. Why? They are trying to avoid "guessing" the first two frames of their game. They are also seeing where NOT to play. If Belmo is on that pair, they're most likely going to avoid where he is playing.

Here is a real life example of what not to do. A few years ago, I was at a PBA Eastern Regional, and was watching a guy I know who has a couple of PBA Regionals. His first shot on the right lane was a big-four. His next time on the right lane, I expected an adjustment, but he threw the exact same line. The result was another big-four. I didn't talk to him about it, as I'm sure he was pi**ed about leaving two splits, but I couldn't help but wonder why he didn't move.

I think the key to adjusting isn't even what pins are left, but as Mo has often pointed out, where is the ball leaving the pin deck? How many of us are like me, and rarely ever watch this? I'm going to make an effort this Thursday to do better at watching my ball off the pin deck and adjusting accordingly.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 4:00 am Post Number: #8 Post
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When you adjust to the left, do you start using a ball that has more backend or what? I used my match solid drilled low flare for the first game shot 246 then left a flat 10 knew I was in trouble. I moved left 1 and 1 then I saw that the ball had trouble breaking back to hit the pocket and then completely abandoned the ball because it is not a very strong hooking ball to begin with. No splits first game and no opens. 2nd game fought the lane went back right with a ball that goes further drilled for control and didn't fair well. 3rd game said the hell with it, I know what needs to be done, went back left again 2 and 2 with a rocketship drilled with control got a double right off the bat and then couldn't carry and didn't open the 3rd game and did it clean also. The problem is when moving left, my breakpoint comes in and the ball doesn't have very good angle of pop into the pocket. Is this because I need something that breaks more in the backend then something low flare or drilled for control?

I had someone bowling with a sanded guru supreme right in my track area and I knew I would be in trouble later on. I am usually very consistant though. I am tried of one game going to hell for some reason. I had 246 166 205 the 166 game I had 2 splits and missed a 3 pin partial bucket. I have missed that partial bucket 6 times in a row. Before throwing the ball I stood up there a minute trying to figure out how to attack the thing. I usually get the last 2 pins and leave the furthers one to the left. I left that thing 3rd game but picked it up throwing a straight ball. No more hooking at that thing.

I did adjust before disaster struck today. I saw how the ball hit the pins got a X and then changed my line. The 2nd time I was on a double and put the match up knowing that I maxed out the hook potential in that and couldn't move more left because it wouldn't come back.

the biggest problem I have is I want to move left and get the ball out far enough right (I want 8 board at the breakpoint) but usually end up 10 or so and then the ball doesn't hit with full force and leaves a flat 10 or something. There are 2 balls I could have used, I have a swerve FX drilled for max backend and I have a hammer scandal drilled to hook as well. I am afraid that my swerve which is a pearl cover will go to far and then not come back. I am also afraid that my scandal will burn up real fast and then hit the dry and not hit very well. I am thinking I might just need a good medium heavy ball drilled for low flaie and play more straighter to the pocket when this happens? Play 13 or 14 out to 11 or 12 and then float it into the pocket instead of trying to throw the ball out so far wide and get it to come back after everyone has bowled in that spot?


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 6:22 am Post Number: #9 Post
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krava wrote:
........... I moved left 1 and 1 then I saw that the ball had trouble breaking back to hit the pocket and then completely abandoned the ball because it is not a very strong hooking ball to begin with. ................, went back left again 2 and 2 with a rocketship ......... The problem is when moving left, my breakpoint comes in and the ball doesn't have very good angle of pop into the pocket. .......... I am afraid that my swerve which is a pearl cover will go to far and then not come back. I am also afraid that my scandal will burn up real fast and then hit the dry and not hit very well..........?


These are NOT big moves left! These are slight adjustments as the nite rolls on. That the same ball is NOT finishing on these minute 1-2 bd adjustments tells of something bigger going on w/ you????

If you made a move left of 5-20 bds. THEN you will definitely need to change to a ball that is more hockey stick & turns the corner. On a 2&2 move NOT so much methinks!!!!!!!!

What's up w/ all this 'I'm afraid of this and that???? Tells me you don't know what your balls REALLY do nor how they perform. Only 1 way to find out, huh......or something!


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 2:39 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Rob is describing an awareness that great teams and bowlers have utilized since the beginning of time. It is true, you'll achieve more insight as to what the lanes are doing if all of the bowlers have a decent amount of skill. But, all shots have a reaction. If your shot went high and a couple of bowlers after you went high, the lanes changed. It is imperative to make a move on the lane now, not later.

If a bowler waits to make the adjustment? Chances are, they will remain one shot behind the move for a good part of the session.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:01 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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All of this is fine and dandy, yet still not the correct approach.

At no time should a bowler rely only on reacting to conditions or results. Bowlers should have a goal of being proactive and adjusting BEFORE a shot goes astray. I realize you will have to react at times, but there is no reason the typical THS bowler can't have an idea of when to move before trouble hits.

In the examples above, what do you tell the first bowler to have the conditions affect him? Too bad? We are sacrificing you so we can bowl better? If I bowl week one in league and find myself having to make adjustments at the beginning of the second game, should I continually wait for a bad result to adjust. Of course not. The next time out I make the adjustment either at the end of the first game or first ball of the second game. I don't need someone else to mess up for me to adjust.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 7:21 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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spmcgivern wrote:
All of this is fine and dandy, yet still not the correct approach.

At no time should a bowler rely only on reacting to conditions or results. Bowlers should have a goal of being proactive and adjusting BEFORE a shot goes astray. I realize you will have to react at times, but there is no reason the typical THS bowler can't have an idea of when to move before trouble hits.

In the examples above, what do you tell the first bowler to have the conditions affect him? Too bad? We are sacrificing you so we can bowl better? If I bowl week one in league and find myself having to make adjustments at the beginning of the second game, should I continually wait for a bad result to adjust. Of course not. The next time out I make the adjustment either at the end of the first game or first ball of the second game. I don't need someone else to mess up for me to adjust.


The sad fact of the matter is that most bowlers below the elite level have a lot of trouble watching the ball exit the pin deck. If a bowler cannot (or will not) do that, watching other bowler's results is about the only option left for him to adjust before he, himself gets into trouble.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:12 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
The sad fact of the matter is that most bowlers below the elite level have a lot of trouble watching the ball exit the pin deck. If a bowler cannot (or will not) do that, watching other bowler's results is about the only option left for him to adjust before he, himself gets into trouble.


True enough. But isn't this suppose to be about education? Shouldn't we be telling bowlers to use not just what is going on around them at the moment, but also what has happened in the past on the exact same shot/condition? For most, THS is notoriously boring and consistent. I can predict with uncanny certainty when I need to make adjustments along with my entire team (not 100% but decent). Sometimes I may adjust earlier or later depending on weather, number of righties/lefties, style of bowlers or type of equipment being used by bowlers/myself. But all of that falls under past experience and I will make that determination before I start or soon after. I do not wait to see everyone around me miss the pocket to make that determination because I have already moved.

And considering the ball exiting the pin deck... that is great for bad carry. Watching the ball exit the pin deck after going high does not give you more information. You went high... move. Pocket hits leaving back row combinations... yes, you need to know where the ball exited the pattern along with how it got to the pocket.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 8:37 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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spmcgivern wrote:
All of this is fine and dandy, yet still not the correct approach. In the examples above, what do you tell the first bowler to have the conditions affect him? Too bad? We are sacrificing you so we can bowl better? If I bowl week one in league and find myself having to make adjustments at the beginning of the second game, should I continually wait for a bad result to adjust. Of course not. The next time out I make the adjustment either at the end of the first game or first ball of the second game. I don't need someone else to mess up for me to adjust.


A bad result would be a split. Usually, before that happens, there is an indicator that the lane has changed ie. a #4 pin. If you're the first bowler, yep, you're out of luck. If you're bowling on a team, you'll tell the rest of the guys about the move the ball just made. If you're bowling singles, you hope no one picked up on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:13 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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One thing we need to keep in mind is, in some aspects, it's easier for the pros to make adjustments. Why? Because they are all good shot-makers, and for the most part, tend to play the lanes the same way. Most times this is not the case in a typical league. Lower average bowlers spray the ball, play the lanes wrong, etc. With 10 bowlers on a pair, it's a crap shoot as to how much to move after up to nine other bowlers throw their shots. If any of them make a bad shot, forget reading his/her ball reaction to determine whether to move or not. Yes, there are teams who have great bowlers who can and do line up off of each other, but they are a rarity.

Plus, adjusting on a very wet/dry condition is tough. I've lost count over the years the number of times I've left a four pin, moved one board left with my feet, then left a bucket. Just one board left got me into very heavy oil, and the ball just sailed.

The other thing I'll be watching tonight is how much the weather affects us. Last Thursday, it was bitter cold, tonight when we start it will be about 54.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 10:04 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:

A bad result would be a split. Usually, before that happens, there is an indicator that the lane has changed ie. a #4 pin. If you're the first bowler, yep, you're out of luck. If you're bowling on a team, you'll tell the rest of the guys about the move the ball just made. If you're bowling singles, you hope no one picked up on it.


I think you missed my point. Why wait for a 4 pin? Over time you can determine when you will start to have issues with the lane conditions.

I challenge any bowler to log all of their shots for one month. (equipment, starting board, ending board, target board, actual board hit, pocket or not, count and any other notes about the shot) Evaluate the information and I guarantee each bowler will be better equipped to make adjustments BEFORE anyone on the lane starts to have issues.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:25 am Post Number: #17 Post
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If you go by what happened in the past on the same condition, you are probably dead meat. A different pair of lanes (topography), a different weather condition, was the oil machine maintened (?), did they change the kind of oil they're using (?), did the lane man have a really bad day? Why are you so busy arguing with those of us who are just trying to help? If it works for you, doesn't mean it works for everyone.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:24 am Post Number: #18 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
Rob is describing an awareness that great teams and bowlers have utilized since the beginning of time. It is true, you'll achieve more insight as to what the lanes are doing if all of the bowlers have a decent amount of skill. But, all shots have a reaction. If your shot went high and a couple of bowlers after you went high, the lanes changed. It is imperative to make a move on the lane now, not later.

If a bowler waits to make the adjustment? Chances are, they will remain one shot behind the move for a good part of the session.


that makes complete since to me.

One other thing that you didn't mention was this: look for oil rings or burnt up residue(some weird stuff I get on my ball when lanes are really dry. Today I had to move up from my light oil ball to my medium oil ball. I threw 2 shots with my medium oil ball (struck) then I looked at it and I saw oil rings on it. I never see oil rings on my rocketship. I immediately knew I am in trouble as that ball can't handle oil and I grabbed my medium heavy ball Hammer bad intentions hybrid and put it down ready to use it if I needed to. The next ball I threw with the rocketship slid past the breakpoint and didn't come back and gave me a bad leave. Next shot I grabbed the hammer and had 3 in a row, threw a bad shot then strung more strikes. So there is no argument it was dry, it was wet and there was carry down there. My BI had like 3-4 inch wide flare of oil rings (playing 2nd arrow out to 8 board). I only usually use it when I play 13-15 but needed the stronger coverstock to cut threw that carry down oil.


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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:17 am Post Number: #19 Post
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Rob,

Im at a cross roads right now.
Do we just ignore him, maybe he'll stop posting this wide ego crap or do I set the negative rep limit at -100 to cross the ban threshold and have the community speak for itself.
Decisions, decisions.

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 Post subject: Re: Adjusting BEFORE Disaster Strikes
 Posted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 3:49 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Im at a cross roads right now.
Do we just ignore him, maybe he'll stop posting this wide ego crap or do I set the negative rep limit at -100 to cross the ban threshold and have the community speak for itself.
Decisions, decisions.


I hope you don't mind me chiming in, our business is full of different types of personalities. Some are relatively quiet, some feel the urge to describe every single detail they encounter, then there is the person who seems to grasp everything and expresses it with the appropriate amount of feedback.

Like this particular discussion, the topic is simple enough. Some of us have had an opportunity to bowl in environments where a high level of skill and awareness exists. Those types of opportunities are few. One thing we know from that experience, the person who allows the thought process to become muddied with irrelevant or trivial mental imaging is going to have the most difficulty in being successful.

To my knowledge, no one has ever averaged 300. Therefore, there are forever changing conditions which we encounter. Another aspect of the game, the person who makes the least amount of changes is the one who is most successful. There have been several 900 series, I doubt those individuals made a 20 board adjustment during that session. So, change is relative to the necessity of getting to the pocket. We don't make changes just for the sake of making changes.

Some people, due to the enormous amount of information made available in today's web environment are prone to over analysis.

Mega, I'm thinking your response is pretty much, tongue in cheek. I say, how low can you go?


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