Adjusting

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spmcgivern
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Re: Adjusting

Post by spmcgivern »

I was hoping the krava bashing would calm down some....

There is nothing wrong with keeping score during practice sessions. In today's world of automatic scoring and having to keep track of total games bowled, you have to keep score. What matters is what you do with the information.

If you are practicing 10-pins, then yeah, your score will be very low (unless you suck at 10-pins then you could score high) and you wouldn't care about the score. But at the same time, keeping score can give you information on how playing different parts of the lane can either improve or decrease your scoring potential during league. Practicing playing 20-10 sounds great and would be beneficial for when you have to actually play that line. But if playing 20-10 equals nothing but flat 10s when played on the league pattern, then the score can tell you it may not be the best for scoring potential.

This is one reason I will not bowl on overly destroyed open play lanes. No one can tell me there is value there other than spare practice with plastic. You should practice on a range of what you expect to see. A broken down league pattern can provide an opportunity to practice different lines, but how do you determine which line will give you the best scoring potential when the scores count? BY KEEPING SCORE.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by MeNoRevs »

Why is Krava -17 for reputation? Is there someone that is giving him negative rep for every post he puts up?

**** Nevermind, saw that Seventen710 and Malt has been giving him negative reviews after every post.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by pjape »

MeNoRevs wrote:Why is Krava -17 for reputation? Is there someone that is giving him negative rep for every post he puts up?

**** Nevermind, saw that Seventen710 and Malt has been giving him negative reviews after every post.
Hey, I have an idea. If anyone doesn't like Krava's posts, then don't read them. Simple as that.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by krava »

Score can be important in certain aspects. Say you are practicing. If you have a high game then a low game etc, it can show that you are not adjusting properly or something else like missing spares. If you are missing the same amount of spares as normal and your scores are showing big differences, then you need to work on adjusting better. if the score is consistant but very low, then it can tell you that you are having a hard time with this pattern or that pattern and need work or something is wrong with your game on that day. Score can also show you other things. My score lately on game 1 on Thursday's is absolutely horrid. I know I struggle with that. Going out bowling on a fresh oil THS pattern to see just how high you can get is pointless to me. If I did that, (which I am considering getting a THS Thursday pattern down), I will use that pattern to figure out where I can play on the lane and with what ball to break the pattern down some so I can actually make it to the pocket. It won't be about score, it will be about how if I try this, or try that. I am not here to brag about scores if that is what someone is thinking, our house is the hardest house I know of. We only had 1 800 this year and no one averages 230. Plano superbowl in dallas give me +30 a game it is so easy there. Scores for me is to show either consitancy or lack of. I don't really practice spares much because at the present time, it wouldn't matter to me if I left a 7,4,8,9 or a 10 pin. I don't have a preference in which one I rather shoot at. I am confortable with them all and if I miss one then I did something wrong like rush or look up too soon or something.

I do hope my post make since to some people and they don't think it is gibberish?
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Re: Adjusting

Post by JohnP »

When I used to practice a lot I'd roll 1 or 2 games at around the 3 - 6 board at the arrows, then 1 or 2 around the 8 - 11 board, then 1 or 2 around the 15 - 18 board. That way I got used to using the different parts of the lane. -- JohnP
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Re: Adjusting

Post by 44boyd »

spmcgivern wrote:I was hoping the krava bashing would calm down some....

There is nothing wrong with keeping score during practice sessions. In today's world of automatic scoring and having to keep track of total games bowled, you have to keep score. What matters is what you do with the information.

If you are practicing 10-pins, then yeah, your score will be very low (unless you suck at 10-pins then you could score high) and you wouldn't care about the score. But at the same time, keeping score can give you information on how playing different parts of the lane can either improve or decrease your scoring potential during league. Practicing playing 20-10 sounds great and would be beneficial for when you have to actually play that line. But if playing 20-10 equals nothing but flat 10s when played on the league pattern, then the score can tell you it may not be the best for scoring potential.

This is one reason I will not bowl on overly destroyed open play lanes. No one can tell me there is value there other than spare practice with plastic. You should practice on a range of what you expect to see. A broken down league pattern can provide an opportunity to practice different lines, but how do you determine which line will give you the best scoring potential when the scores count? BY KEEPING SCORE.
I'm not bashing him. We are well exposed to his posts where he states that he throws 10 at the arrows out to 8 with whichever ball at OOB finish etc.. When there are a good amount of posts on telling him to work on moving in and he goes to practice but doesn't move in because he has a good roll doesn't seem very productive to me. When I see videos from USBC, PB3, WRWJr, and Chris Barnes talk about practice, first thing they mention is don't worry about score. They all say grab a ball and try to double at each arrow, you'll teach yourself how to do it. When your done, grab another ball out of your bag and repeat. Not trying to sound like an ass, just trying to help like Rob and many others that have tried to tell him.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by 44boyd »

JohnP wrote:When I used to practice a lot I'd roll 1 or 2 games at around the 3 - 6 board at the arrows, then 1 or 2 around the 8 - 11 board, then 1 or 2 around the 15 - 18 board. That way I got used to using the different parts of the lane. -- JohnP
This is what I do too, the 15-18 board is where I get stuck moving in because I'm learning to control the speed to help get consistent. But I'm only a 187 bowler, so I'll throw a good one then leave the next one soft or yank it lol.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by SomyP »

For me adjustment number one has always for the most part been speed. I average 18-19 mph. So sometimes I can get really amped up depending on the day and subconsciously throw it 20+ mph and not realize it. But I also average around 400+ rpms to back up that ball speed.

So while I am a power player and have the ability to move in, I like to stay right for as long as I can. For me backing off the rev rate while maintaining ball speed is probably my best move if I want to stay right. But last week in league the shot called for me to move in from 10 initially to 15 while the breakpoint was still around 7-8. So yes I moved 5 boards, but the adjustment was what was needed. I only dropped 10 pins from the first game to the second. This is where my mistakes are made and I adjust too late, and drop 30 pins or more sometimes. But I kept inching in and stayed around 2 teens to 220 for the night. While an average night, it showed me that while I am a part time bowler due to other obligations in my life, I can still be consistent.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by seventen7ten »

MeNoRevs wrote:Why is Krava -17 for reputation? Is there someone that is giving him negative rep for every post he puts up?

**** Nevermind, saw that Seventen710 and Malt has been giving him negative reviews after every post.
I'm truly sorry.

I hope that Krava and the Forum members would forgive me for my immature behavior. I stand corrected.

If anyone would like me to resign from the Forum for this behavior, please PM me. In the meantime, I will give Krava positive points to make up for this.

Sincerely,
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Re: Adjusting

Post by LittleTiger »

seventen7ten wrote:I hope that Krava and the Forum members would forgive me for my immature behavior. I stand corrected.
IMO, is it never wrong if you don't know something.

Facebook is teached people to react all the posts but difference is that here we sum these to reputation.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by krava »

1st of all this is probably going to be a long post so if you don't want to read it please skip it. I am posting this to try to get some help as I am in desperate need for sure. This post is dead on the subject I believe. Anyone that can respond to this I would appreciate it to give me some help as I almost out of answers.

According to the lane tech guy, the lanes are oiled every night the same. On Wednesday one guy does it and on Thursday it is a different person. There are several programmed patterns in the machine which the lane tech won't let you know any of them. The only thing he says is that the lanes are oiled to 40 feet or so (which is probably on Wed).

The last few weeks, I haven't been able to get the ball to the pocket and have been missing to the right, atleast on the first game. Usually I play 8 or 10 and try to wear the lane down and maybe move a tad bit left if needed. last week my ball started looking good 2nd game and on. I did switch balls to a stronger ball for the 2nd game. Because of not getting the ball to the pocket for the past few weeks, I came up with a plan and that was to use stronger balls with more surface to push my way to the pocket. I was hyped up thought I figured it out and was ready to go.

I started with my stronger ball which I usually play 3 and 2, to the left with. I used it, the ball didn't roll as well as I would have liked but I did reach the pocket with it, the first 2 or so shots in practice and the first 2 frames of the game 1. I had a backup plan and I have figured out that I can play outside of 10 going straight with a little arc but sometimes the arc isn't big enough to reach the pocket. I had been using a Hustle Ink. I brought in a Hy-road to give me a little stronger reaction. The first shot in practice I missed a tad bit right and it came storming back and looked incredible. The next 2-3 shots came up light in the pocket and I abandoned trying to use that.

A long story short, I kept moving left a board or 2 boards at a time and keeping my breakpoint at 10 instead of 8. The ball never really turned on its side and rolled really well. I might not be saying this correctly, but the finger holes were rotating at 60 degrees instead of my perfered 45 degree great roll. it is like the ball was standing up or something. I might move 1 board or 2 and I have 1 good shot, then the reaction is dead again. it got to the point where even if I moved 1 and 1 the ball wouldn't make a move back to the pocket and hit straight through the 3 pin. I thought to myself ok maybe I don't have enough surface on it. Factory is 500/3000. I did 500/1000/2000/3000 and then that ball has been used for about 8 games after that. I grabbed a scandal that I know is at 500/1000/2000. I moved a board or two left and the first shot the ball showed a sign of life. it got to the point where I threw the ball and the ball went over 10 at the breakpoint and took out the 3 and left me a 1 2 10 twice in a row. Each time it did that I did atleast a 1 and 1 move left. The ball stopped breaking completely but still had oil rings around it.

I got sick of this, I moved 10 boards back right with my feet and grabbed the hustle ink threw it, hit the pocket and left a 8 10. It deflected really bad but looked like a decent roll. I then made a 2 and 3 move back right again, threw it straight down 7 board and started nailing the pocket.

I was a lot more accurate then I was yesterday, I didn't miss any single or 2 pin spares. I left several wash outs, several buckets, several partial buckets. I missed right 70-80% of my balls. I got a double twice and averaged maybe 3 strikes a game and had 6 and 7 counts that I am not use to seeing on my name.

The lanes are playing as if there is light oil from 9 to the gutter, and long oil inside of that. The lanes had almost no backends throwing the ball inside of 10 unless ball speed is maybe 10 mph like some of the bowlers. Getting the ball to 8 or 9 at the breakpoint was disasterous. Completely missing the headpin usually.

I swear to god on the bible, I rather bowl on the USBC national pattern then this thing. On the national pattern you know what to expect. On this thing, throw one shot it looks good, 2nd shot sails through the pins and hitting the exact same breakpoint with almost the same speed.

I believe the problem is I don't know how to play this pattern and need advice on what to do. The 2 things I believe I can do is #1 stay right of 10 board and maybe use a ball that has more backend then just a "control ball". #2 completely forget about breakpoints. Pull my breakpoint in as far inward as necessary and play more straighter. That is maybe throwing it across 13 to 11 or even 12 at the breakpoint or even moving further left but don't get the ball out to far and keep sort of a small smooth arc and play it as if it was a long oil pattern.

The way other people played it today was stay outside of 10 and a 160 average bowler shot 211. Another bowler with a 130 average was playing about the same line between 1st and 2nd and was going at a 325 or so handicap pace in the 5th frame.

There is no way these lanes (I played on the same pair yesterday) are oiled the same. I averaged atleast 6 strikes a game Wed, hit the pocket (maybe not flush) 90% of the time and didn't have good accuracy and had miss room each way and also had good hooking backends. I missed several easy single pin spares 3-4 that should have been made and have been doing that the past few weeks. I have averaged 215 on Wed with nothing less then a 619 I believe. Thursday, I averaged 3 strikes a game. I am more accurate, I hit the pocket 20-30% of the time or it feels like it. I left 0 splits Wed and left 4 or so Thurs. If you take out Thursday's score of last week because I did do half way decent staying outside of 10 on Thursday, I have shot 525 for the last 2 weeks which is over 100+ less then on Wednesday, and picking up my spares better because not rushing. How can the lanes possibly be the same? I practiced on Tuesday bowling on pre bowled lanes, moving a pair after each game. I had good ball reaction and the ball responded as if we were bowling on Wednesday's pattern.

My mind was in the game too, before we bowled I msg someone saying that I was going to tear the lanes up etc. I had positive attitude the entire time even when I struggled. I kept looking for an answer moving left and left with no results, no good ball reaction. The only good ball reaction was way back right.

I think I will do what Kajmak (not sure if I have the name correctly) suggested with the 7 practice balls. I will throw one cross lane diagonal to see just how far this oil pattern is.

Sorry about the long post, I am trying to give all the possible info I can with maybe a possible solution. I am intensely frustrated right now.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by flibblesh »

MeNoRevs wrote:Why is Krava -17 for reputation? Is there someone that is giving him negative rep for every post he puts up?

**** Nevermind, saw that Seventen710 and Malt has been giving him negative reviews after every post.
He was far below -17 for a while, when his posting was far more frequent and had a much higher word count, and treated every thread like a blog post. He isn't as bad now, so he's improved in that respect.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by LittleTiger »

krava wrote:According to the lane tech guy, the lanes are oiled every night the same. On Wednesday one guy does it and on Thursday it is a different person. There are several programmed patterns in the machine which the lane tech won't let you know any of them. The only thing he says is that the lanes are oiled to 40 feet or so (which is probably on Wed).
Even when tech guy says that lanes are oiled every night same it do not prove that they are always same.

There is much more aspects. Air conditions (weather and air conditioner) affects lane topography (because there is parts which are made from wood) and oil it selves. Look: http://www.kegel.net/topography-study/

Then it is possible that lane machine is broken, they are changed type oil or detergent, changed new pins (not directly affect lane it selves but can require different line to play), etc...


That why you should ever care about where you are played earlier on that house. You should be open minded to play where with totally different idea if needed.

More coming when I have time to read whole post.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by pjape »

krava wrote:I swear to god on the bible, I rather bowl on the USBC national pattern then this thing. On the national pattern you know what to expect. On this thing, throw one shot it looks good, 2nd shot sails through the pins and hitting the exact same breakpoint with almost the same speed.
I don't have time to read your entire post Krava, since I'm on coffee break at work, but this did catch my attention.

I'm in total agreement with you. I bowled a sport league two summers in a row years ago, and yes, I'd rather bowl that than a house shot, for two reasons.

1. Bad shots almost always give a bad result. Yea, I'd have the occasional lucky Brooklyn, but most if the time if I missed, I paid the full penalty.
2. Adjusting was SO much easier. Moving left as the lanes broke down was very predictable, since the oil didn't drastically go up toward the middle of the lane. The second summer we bowled a 2-1 ratio shot, which was very tough, but very playable.

Unfortunately, there are no leagues in my county that are sport leagues, so it's either put up with a house shot and learn to play it, or go home. There are bowlers in my league who average over 230, so that makes the problem obvious. Me.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by spmcgivern »

In response to krava's original practice idea....

When I bowled a lot of tournaments, the difference between those who made the cut and those that didn't wasn't rev rate or speed or how many hands you used; it was who was able to find the shot on the pair they moved to the fastest.

Practicing across several lanes can assist you in determining the highest scoring part of the lane as fast as possible. Does it take you 3 or 6 frames to find a line that provides adequate forgiveness and good carry? Follow tournament leaders during qualifying and you will see they are able to find the line extremely fast. Maybe 2 or 3 frames of spares or possibly an open then they start stringing strikes.

I do agree with others in you have to at least try different parts of the lane. I know when I go to a particular center where I will bowl. But if I never experiment outside of this area I may not be able to find a better line to play. Maybe I already have the best line, but then again, I may not.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by JohnP »

Never think coming into a match that both lanes on your pair are going to play the same. If you find yourself striking on one lane and missing on the other you can bet that the two aren't playing the same and you have to find out how to play the one you're having trouble with. It's not uncommon to even have to use different balls on each lane. -- JohnP
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Re: Adjusting

Post by pjape »

spmcgivern wrote:In response to krava's original practice idea....

When I bowled a lot of tournaments, the difference between those who made the cut and those that didn't wasn't rev rate or speed or how many hands you used; it was who was able to find the shot on the pair they moved to the fastest.

Practicing across several lanes can assist you in determining the highest scoring part of the lane as fast as possible. Does it take you 3 or 6 frames to find a line that provides adequate forgiveness and good carry? Follow tournament leaders during qualifying and you will see they are able to find the line extremely fast. Maybe 2 or 3 frames of spares or possibly an open then they start stringing strikes.

I do agree with others in you have to at least try different parts of the lane. I know when I go to a particular center where I will bowl. But if I never experiment outside of this area I may not be able to find a better line to play. Maybe I already have the best line, but then again, I may not.
This is one thing I've noticed with the top PBA pros; how freaking fast they can find the shot. Several times I attended the US Open (when it was flat oil), and usually all it took was one shot to get lined up. One time Duke changed pairs and split on his first shot on the left lane. I said to my buddy, "I guarantee his next shot on the left lane will be a strike." And it was.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by krava »

I am not sure where to post this. JohnP I must have missed where someone told me to do "versatility drills". There is only 1 versatility drill I see on youtube. I followed what you said. 1 ball shoot 2 shots 1st arrow change keep going with the same ball and then change balls and repeat again.

I had to do this several times as I had 4 phone calls in 45 min and had to start over again filming so I got interrupted a lot. I did 4 complete games doing drills 1-4th arrow. Last game I bowled between 2nd and 3rd to demonstate what happens if I bowled there.

Here is video of the first 2 ball versatility drills. 1st ball is a Rotogrip Hustle drilled for control (light oil ball). 2nd ball used was a radicial ridiculous drilled for max backend (which I haven't used in a long time). I wanted my hy-road but somehow forgot it. 1st arrow I used Full roller release, 2nd arrow I used 3/4 roller, 3/4th I tried to give it a little loft and also more spin and stay behind it longer. no shots on 4th arrow were even close to striking that is too far out.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2nd video is 1st-4th arrow with c300 swerve FX (I don't use this ball either seems to go too far before hooking).

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3rd video Using a hammer Bad intentions hybrid 500/2000 gritt suppose to be playing 12,13 out to 10. Lane was a bit oily for the ball. Getting it to 9 at the breakpoint (breakpoint is the start of the right most range finder) wouldn't come back. No room for error to the right but a little to the left. Score was 219 with an open. You can see in all the videos how unforgiving the lane condition is.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Problems people might see (bad balance on the stance at the foul line hip hurting, too out of shape and overweight need to get back to the gym). Getting upset. During league the only emotion I give is maybe staring at the pins 3-4 seconds after I miss or something. During practice I will get pissed. there is no reason to miss even a board and today accuracy was off.
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Re: Adjusting

Post by LittleTiger »

First of all. Ask camera man/women to read this: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... e_Coaching" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is very hard to see right things from these videos.

Anyway, one quite good shot (from camera position and angle point of view) is this one: " onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; so tried to do some analysis based on that.

On start position left feet is somewhere around 27 board:
start_position.png
On foul line left feet is somewhere 22 board (you walk 5 board to right which is ok if that doesn't change when you move more to left). Ball is somewhere around of 16 board (6 boards from ankle).
foul_line.png
On arrows ball is somewhere around 13 board => line is 3 boards to outside so on 45 feat is should be somewhere around of 7 board.
arrows.png
But that is not what happens. Breakpoint is much earlier maybe on 40 feet and on maybe board 10.
breakpoint.PNG
So we can see that you need move more inside to find more room for error.
Let's say that you would play line, where your ball is on 17th board on arrows and 11th board on breakpoint. So you need to have ball on 20th board (and feet on 26th board) on foul line and to get there you need have left feet on 31th board on start position.

Can you take new video from that? Directly from behind and just from one throw.
krava wrote:Lane was a bit oily for the ball. Getting it to 9 at the breakpoint (breakpoint is the start of the right most range finder) wouldn't come back.
You are reading ball motion wrong. Problem is that ball is reading lane way too early. That why you need move more inside and get more oil under it.
krava wrote:No room for error to the right but a little to the left. Score was 219 with an open. You can see in all the videos how unforgiving the lane condition is.
If you want honest opinion it is that lane condition looks to be super easy. Easy slide on inside and plenty of dry on outside. You just need get more oil under the ball on front part of it.
krava wrote:Problems people might see (bad balance on the stance at the foul line hip hurting, too out of shape and overweight need to get back to the gym).
I think that gym would be good for all of us but now we are talking about lane play and adjusting...
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Re: Adjusting

Post by pjape »

krava wrote:I am not sure where to post this. JohnP I must have missed where someone told me to do "versatility drills". There is only 1 versatility drill I see on youtube. I followed what you said. 1 ball shoot 2 shots 1st arrow change keep going with the same ball and then change balls and repeat again.

I had to do this several times as I had 4 phone calls in 45 min and had to start over again filming so I got interrupted a lot. I did 4 complete games doing drills 1-4th arrow. Last game I bowled between 2nd and 3rd to demonstate what happens if I bowled there.

Here is video of the first 2 ball versatility drills. 1st ball is a Rotogrip Hustle drilled for control (light oil ball). 2nd ball used was a radicial ridiculous drilled for max backend (which I haven't used in a long time). I wanted my hy-road but somehow forgot it. 1st arrow I used Full roller release, 2nd arrow I used 3/4 roller, 3/4th I tried to give it a little loft and also more spin and stay behind it longer. no shots on 4th arrow were even close to striking that is too far out.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2nd video is 1st-4th arrow with c300 swerve FX (I don't use this ball either seems to go too far before hooking).

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3rd video Using a hammer Bad intentions hybrid 500/2000 gritt suppose to be playing 12,13 out to 10. Lane was a bit oily for the ball. Getting it to 9 at the breakpoint (breakpoint is the start of the right most range finder) wouldn't come back. No room for error to the right but a little to the left. Score was 219 with an open. You can see in all the videos how unforgiving the lane condition is.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Problems people might see (bad balance on the stance at the foul line hip hurting, too out of shape and overweight need to get back to the gym). Getting upset. During league the only emotion I give is maybe staring at the pins 3-4 seconds after I miss or something. During practice I will get pissed. there is no reason to miss even a board and today accuracy was off.
Although the topic is lane play, and though I'm not a coach, I do see problems in your physical game. First off, in my opinion, you get into the swing way too late. I struggle with the same thing, so I pick up on this with other bowlers. Second, your first step should go in front of your left foot, but it goes too far to the right. Mark Baker has said that bowlers that commit this flaw have a lot of difficulty getting the ball to the right, especially when playing deep. I think that's the problem when you get deep; the ball never gets far enough to the right, but stays in the heavy oil and rolls too late.

I can also tell you, from experience, that when my timing is late, I can't get the ball to the right. Sometimes I might only miss at the arrows one board left, but the break-point is in a different zip code. When I do it right, the path of the ball is correct, and if lined up, usually hits the pocket. The biggest thing is it's effortless. When I'm late, it takes a lot more muscle, and I usually lunge at the foul line.

I think for now, you need to put lane play on the back burner, and be honest with yourself and fix your physical game. If one's physical game is flawed, playing the lanes and adjusting is nearly impossible. I watch a lot of your shots, and I think, "yea, that looks familiar; it looks like one of my shots."

There is something else you need to do, and oh, I can relate, and that's become intimately familiar with one word, and that word is PATIENCE. You appear to trying to master the game overnight, and that's just not going to happen with most bowlers. Allow your body and mind to improve at it's own pace, and yes, it's always slower than we want. It's like that even at the Pro level. If you didn't know it, there was a time that Walter Ray Williams Jr. was 0-13 from the top seed. But, he stopped caring too much, just enjoyed the game, and the rest is history. I think you're putting too much pressure on yourself. Just relax and enjoy the game, the good and the bad.
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