Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

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LittleTiger
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by LittleTiger »

krava wrote:remember I am trying to learn here. Would you abandon your "line" if everytime you did hit the pocket you got an X?
"So, many of the pros are adjusting even before an adjustment is needed."
- Norm Duke

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krava wrote:See if I am correct saying this:

You abandon your line for the following reasons:
#0 If you can't hit the pocket flush or ball not getting flush to the pocket
#1 It isn't carrying
#2 You have no miss room (atleast on a THS shot) or if you have limited miss room (you can miss a little to the right but not miss any to the left)
#3 The ball you are throwing is having bad ball roll (rolling out or either sliding too far.
Yes these are correct.
krava wrote:[and you don't want to do a ball change] )
Like Rob said you on this topic. It is lane which tell you when to change ball and you should listen.

krava wrote:I leave 10 pins when I move inside because I play too "direct" not much angle to the pocket. I can't throw it out and have it come back from the inside, it just won't come back, probably because of the speed.
This is where you should change ball to one which can change direction faster (skid/flip reaction).

I drew you picture which shows where lane is drying out and where you then should be playing. Also pay attention to shape of ball motion (more inside you move more skid/flip type reaction you need):
oil_transition.png
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by krava »

flibblesh wrote:

This is your biggest problem to be honest. Stop assuming you know better than everyone on here. Read and follow what you are being told, the guys on here know what they are talking about.
I don't know very much compared to what people know here. I haven't been doing it long enough. I am stating things so people can see where my logic is wrong. If I thought I knew more I would say "your wrong... etc" I haven't said that once. I comment back so people can see what I am thinking to see what is wrong with my thinking if it is wrong and how it is wrong. If people are quiet and not say anything back then they might not get the "whole picture" whoever comments back is trying to say. I hope that makes since? That is why you get the long explantions. " I thought this because of this.. and this and this.. etc. You can't learn if you don't ask questions. I do appreciate all the help. I need to give some + to people that help and will when I get back tonight. I am known to be hard headed but I will take advice for sure. I have no problem trying new things.
LittleTiger
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by LittleTiger »

FYI. I found very interesting presentation by Mo where he talks about this topic: http://radicalbowling.com/uploads/downl ... tation.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe that should be included to wiki too?
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bowl1820
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

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LittleTiger wrote:FYI. I found very interesting presentation by Mo where he talks about this topic: http://radicalbowling.com/uploads/downl ... tation.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maybe that should be included to wiki too?
Just a fyi there's a video that goes with that .

Heres the seminar it was used in, plus where he did it again, There are some slight differences.

Here's the link to Mo Pinel's Seminar "Striking Effectively In Today's Game"
https://www.facebook.com/radical.bowlin ... 643444341/

Also heres the more recent version:

Mo Pinel LIVE Seminar "Striking Effectively In Today's Game"
https://www.facebook.com/radical.bowlin ... 982949407/

and here's the PowerPoint presentation (in pdf) that goes with it.
http://radicalbowling.com/uploads/downl ... tation.pdf
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by Shazaam »

I read this topic before I went to league on Sunday and probably jinxed myself. During my 3 games, I left more pocket splits than I ever have before, 8-10, 4-9, 6-7, etc with my MO hole Yeti Uncaged. My teammates were shocked. My teammate asked me if I knew what was going on. I reasoned that my ball was still looking at the pins. Every adjustment I tried was a failure (speed changes, moving feet/eyes, etc).

I can't even blame the lanes, because it was a very high scoring pair, with the 161 avg bowler on the opposing team throwing a 700 series. It's frustrating to know what adjustments need to be made, but not being physically able to make them.
My current Stats:

RH
PAP: 5" over and 1" up
Speed: 14.5-15.5 MPH at Monitor
Rev rate: approx. 250-300 rpm
Tilt: 13-15 degrees
LittleTiger
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by LittleTiger »

Shazaam wrote:I read this topic before I went to league on Sunday and probably jinxed myself.
I'm sorry to hear that that but I can also say that it have been happening most of us.

It is one of very hard things on bowling that it needs lot of knowledge but still you should be able to play without thinking too much ;)
Shazaam wrote:During my 3 games, I left more pocket splits than I ever have before, 8-10, 4-9, 6-7, etc with my MO hole Yeti Uncaged. My teammates were shocked. My teammate asked me if I knew what was going on. I reasoned that my ball was still looking at the pins..
Yeti Uncaged comes with pearl cover and if you have it with MOtion hole I guess that it generates too skip/flip type of reaction.

So if that is case then you should either use stronger ball or add more surface to it make it read lane (enter to roll phase) before it hits pocket.

Other option what happened is that ball had too much angle when it entered to pocket. On that case you can also try go a lot deeper inside (jump from second mark to third/fourth/fifth mark).
Shazaam wrote:Every adjustment I tried was a failure (speed changes, moving feet/eyes, etc)..
One important thing to keep in mind is that on competition you should only use changes which you have practiced enough. I example use only for these ones: change line, change ball surface, change ball because I'm not able repeat my shots if I try anything else.
Shazaam wrote:I can't even blame the lanes, because it was a very high scoring pair, with the 161 avg bowler on the opposing team throwing a 700 series. It's frustrating to know what adjustments need to be made, but not being physically able to make them.
Yep. That why I like to have enough different kind of bowling balls so I can keep using same physical game but just changing line and ball when lane changes.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by krava »

sorry about jinxing you. I am not used to pocket splits at all. I am not use to splits that much except for this year. I might be wrong but I think that pocket flush splits occur because the ball is not getting into the roll phase before it hits the pins. Right now I am a bit sick been sick for a few days haven't even had time to practice.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by krava »

Leaving a 5 pin means that you went into the pocket too light or it deflected I believe now.

Here is what happened to me: I usually start with a rocketship or timeless. Today the rocketship went in the gutter on my first try and also slid way too far down. My storm match wouldn't make it to the pocket playing 2nd arrow. I used my weakest ball which is the rotogrip Hustle. 1st shot missed right just a tad and it came back and stuck in the pocket in practice. Long story short, I moved back right 1 and 1 after 1st shot in 1st frame, I slammed the pocket each shot looked good to me, maybe a few just a tad tad bit light, just very minor light. The ball motion was dead on and looked good. For instance take the left lane, I left 10 pin, 7 pin, X, 10 pin, take the right lane 7 pin, X, 10 pin etc. I threw the exact same shot got a different result. I had no pin action at all either. I left solid 10's not half 10's that deflected. 10th frame right lane, the lane broke down a little bit and I got XXX. I know when I throw a good shot and a bad shot, 10/12 shots were nice dead on shots. I got 2 x's and then 3 at the end. If I left 2 10's on the same lane then time to make a change, or 2 7's and light hits. I hit the same mark threw the same and got a different result, the ball motion was good and in the pocket and I left 3 10 pins (missed the first 2, got everything after that and haven't missed a 10 in 2 times bowling), and also left 2 7 pins in the same game. That game should been like a 250 or something with the open split in the 9th but it was almost 100 pins lower.

The ball didn't deflect or dive bomb the pins. I didn't see a reason to move. Most people would say that if you aren't carrying, then you need to move your line. Where? I make a move left the ball wouldn't come back even if I used a stronger one.

I was very upset the first game, I can take it if I throw a bad shot, if I have bad ball motion and don't get strikes that is my fault but when I slam the pocket and leave corners over and over in the first game at the start that was depressing. The only good thing is I learned how to adjust pretty well to hit the pocket and was never lost from there. with the first ball, I hit the pocket and must have had some kind of deflection and left the 5 pin, next shot the ball sailed through the breakpoint and then I balled up and then struck a bit. The only issue is my rocketship didn't give me any warning before it started to sail too. I got 2 or 3X out of it and then it sailed and next shot I balled up again and then strung strikes. Next time I leave a 5 pin from a good shot I will ball up knowing what happens on the very next ball.

Someone answer me this. what caused this? I started with a rotogrip Hustle (lighter oil ball) because my medium oil control ball sailed through the breakpoint and didn't try to hook. This thing is drilled pin down to go long and then have control. This was THS and I was throwing across 10 to 8 rather straight with a little arch into the pocket. After 1 game the ball then died due to carry down. I balled up moved 1 and 1 left and started to strike. Then 3 shots later, had to ball up again because I had oil rings on the medium oil ball that I never see on there ever. There was no oil rings on the Hustle ball at any time. This leads me to believe the lanes had heavier oil then what I am used to. The medium heavy ball had 3-4 inches of oil rings and flares on it and this was start of 3rd game. I continued to stay in the same place almost just 1 board left of where I started. I would have shot 249 last game but dropped the ball in the 10th frame and broke my wrist when I did that and left a bucket but got it. I also threw a bad shot or 2 during that game but I don't need to hear I was in the wrong spot. I had to wipe that ball off every shot with oil rings. The question I have is how the hell did the light oil hustle ball even had any kind of a good shot? if that was heavy oil out there, that thing should just slid all the way and not even try to hook at the end. or am I mistaken and I ran into a lot of carry down? Note that there were 2 high rev, guys throwing plastic balls in my track area with no thumbs in it and a lot of other plastic balls there too. I believe there was heavy oil because my medium oil ball just slid down the lane and I threw the ball like the 3rd shot on the lane. How did the Hustle even remotely make it to the pocket? if it wouldn't have made it to the pocket, I would have balled up after the rocketship didn't make any kind of move. The Hustle doesn't get very good pin action for me at all. if I use my timeless or the BI and just barely touch the pins, they go all over the place. I never pull out my BI hybrid because it isn't ever oily enough or I never move far enough left to use it.

I don't usually get upset but I was so upset I almost flipped off the 10 pin after I picked it up the 2nd time after leaving 4 of them in 8 frames. I left 2 10's on each lane about 3 frames apart from each other. It was 10 X 7 10.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by LittleTiger »

krava wrote:The ball didn't deflect or dive bomb the pins. I didn't see a reason to move. Most people would say that if you aren't carrying, then you need to move your line. Where? I make a move left the ball wouldn't come back even if I used a stronger one.
It is little bit hard to guess without knowing exact oil pattern but I did some simulations by using Powerhouse Blueprint on oil pattern which is called for "typical house shot".

Here is picture of oil pattern line plot. Most important is understand that we want play ball some where to that area which is inside of red circle because most room of error is there:
oil_pattern.png

So first let's start by choosing bowling and way to throw it over 2nd arrow and make it slide too far:
2nd_arrow_sliding_too_far.png
Then let's try to move to 1st arrow so we get ball to pocket:
1st_arrow_hitting_the_pocket.png
Then let's to try simulate 200 shots to see how much room of error we have:
1st_arrow_200_shots.png
Notice especially parts inside of red circles. It is also important to note that this is high average (220+) very accurate bowler which doesn't make big mistakes but he is still suffering because of playing on wrong place.


So then let's move back to our original line but this time add more surface to bowling ball (from 2000 polished to 1000 grit solid):
2nd_arrow_more_surface_on_ball.png
Now we are found way to pocket with much more room of error. Here is simulation from 200 shots from this line which proves that there is more room of error:
2nd_arrow_more_surface_on_ball_200_shots.png
It is also important to note that on these simulations bowling ball, layout, ball speed, rev rate, axis rotation and axis tilt exactly same on all examples. Only differences are line to play and surface on the ball.

I hope that these help you...
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by bowl1820 »

Lane Play & Adjustments

Excerpt
Chris Barnes: How many times have you been bowling in league or a tournament think you throw in a great shot that suddenly goes high and you didn't expect it?

The most experienced players that are the most successful anticipate these Lane changes and are able to move before they actually happen.


[youtube][/youtube]

Making Proper On-Lane Bowling Adjustments
Oil pattern no longer favoring your preferred bowling ball path? Time for an on-lane bowling adjustment.

[youtube][/youtube]
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
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