Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

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krava
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Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by krava »

Does anyone have any certain pin combinations when they leave it (after what looks like a flush pocket hit) they know it is time to make some sort of change? 1st game 4-5th frame or so left a 5-7 and I didn't pay attention too much to it but what was left. I was like "what the hell happend". 2-3 frames later, left the 5-7 on a pocket hit again and then saw that the ball looked like it hit like a marshmellow. Went from a rocketship that I just used the spinner on 500.1000,2000,3000 gritt on it to a Timeless that has never had its surface changed and things looked alot better. The ball touches the pins and the pins just scatter everywhere.

The ball was probably going straight up 7-8 and to the pocket. (most likely burning up) I missed my mark right 80% of the time Thursday because I couldn't get low enough down and probably swung the ball out so it wouldn't hit my right leg. Everytime I got down low enough it got a X. It took me the 2nd game completely also to figure out what I was doing wrong and missing almost every time right. Having on tighter slacks compared to PJ's (I wore on Wed) probably made some of the difference too as those are harder to squat down in. When I mean low, I mean like doing almost a full lunge, leg is almost parallel to the floor. 320 or so Lbs, age creaping up and also not going to the gym has a big effect.

Anytime I see a 5 7 I will know what happend and what to do from now on. I don't know of any other pin combinations that are pocket hits that means a change. I don't usuaully make a change with a flat 10 or solid 10 unless I get 2 back to back or within a few frames. If a 4 was left then it wasn't a pocket hit.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by EricHartwell »

Sometimes the lanes change so fast that if you don't stay ahead of the transitions, moving without a red flag, you end up on the nose and big splits without notice.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by RobMautner »

"1st game 4-5th frame or so left a 5-7 and I didn't pay attention too much to it but what was left."

Really... a 5-7 and you didn't pay attention too much?
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by krava »

I didn't pay attention too much to when the ball hit the pins or where the ball exited the pins. I was like that is going in the right place that is a X, then saw the ball hit the pins and was like woah what happened. I blamed the shot on myself, maybe I didn't keep my hand behind the ball and had a broken wrist when I threw the ball and it hit bad because of that. when it happened again I knew I didn't throw it like that twice in a row.

I haven't left a 5 7 in probably 10-15 games or more that I can remember. I dismissed it as a fluke at first.

The lanes didn't change, I stayed in the same place the whole night. The last game I had X / X / then went all the way out to the 9th frame and threw it wide (didn't squat down) left a 4 8 10? Aimed for the 4 and missed them all, and then XXX. I could have had 260 ended up with I think 221 or something. SO I was in the right place.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by RobMautner »

Keep believing it. I give up!
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by krava »

Not sure what the last comment was about. If I wouldn't have messed up I would have had 260 the last game. If I would have bend down enough the other frames it would have been 300. I don't think I was in the wrong spot if I shot that high. Everytime I actually got low enough down I struck.
I had to deal with a high rpm guy throwing a plastic ball with no thumb down my track the entire night. Everyone else was throwing straight plastic balls down the lane.

The mistakes I made was not realizing fast enough why every one of my balls went several boards right of where I was aiming most of the night.

I was in the wrong spot with that other ball because too much surface on it. A move 2 and 2 might have fixed it.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by MALT »

krava wrote:Not sure what the last comment was about. If I wouldn't have messed up I would have had 260 the last game. If I would have bend down enough the other frames it would have been 300. I don't think I was in the wrong spot if I shot that high. Everytime I actually got low enough down I struck.
I had to deal with a high rpm guy throwing a plastic ball with no thumb down my track the entire night. Everyone else was throwing straight plastic balls down the lane.

The mistakes I made was not realizing fast enough why every one of my balls went several boards right of where I was aiming most of the night.

I was in the wrong spot with that other ball because too much surface on it. A move 2 and 2 might have fixed it.
Well, why didn't shoot the 300 then or the 260 & NOT 221?
Bcuz the lanes didn't change???? w/ all that plastic pushing oil everywhere?? You must not be listening or 'paying attention' to what Rob & everyone else has been telling you ad nauseum!!
OR SOMETHING
SHEESH!
Last edited by MALT on January 1st, 2018, 10:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by LookingForALeftyWall »

Every time you throw a shot, you receive feedback - good or bad; lucky or unlucky. It is up to the bowler to decipher it each and every time.

Leaving something like a 5-7 means don't throw it like that again.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by pjape »

If you were going straight up 7 or 8 and were also missing right, that's why you left a 5-7 split. During league on Thursday, it didn't take long for the lanes to break down and start hitting weak. I had a shot during game one when I missed right and left a 4-5. Thankfully, I converted it. Then I pulled my head out of my rear end and MOVED! It wasn't a big move, just a one and one left, but it made a huge difference in carry. Light hits now struck. As soon as the ball hit the least bit weak (even if I struck), I moved left.

If you haven't, I highly recommend that you watch the USBC's video's "Earls Journey to 900." The second video was especially enlightening to me. The ball Earl is throwing is 500 grit, and there were a few shots that Earl missed about two boards right, and the result was a weak ten pin. I'm convinced that the ball was in the dry too long and lost too much energy.

You need to learn the lesson I did: The days of playing straight outside second arrow are OVER! Unless you can throw the ball with a lot of speed, you're not going to carry pocket hits. Move left and get in the oil. You might have to learn to put some rotation on the ball and swing it. You'll also need more surface than 3,000 grit. At the beginning of the season, I tried a ball at 5,000 grit 3M Trizact, along with polish. I played straight up 7. It worked for only four frames; then I left a blower 7 pin. At most houses it's just too dry out there!

On Thursday at league, one of the members of the other team is a PWBA title holder. She, as she always does, played inside in the oil and swung the ball. I've never seen her play a house shot straight. She ended up shooting 699. But, I don't think she moved as much as she should have in game three. Game two she shot 280, game three was 205.

Give it a try and see what happens!
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by RobMautner »

I'm really trying to understand why so many bowlers will freely admit that they screwed up shots with their physical game, but won't even acknowledge the fact that they are sorely lacking in terms of hearing what the lanes are telling them. I guess it's easier to believe that their body did something wrong rather than that they forgot to use their brains!
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by spr3wr »

krava wrote: Anytime I see a 5 7 I will know what happend and what to do from now on.
The goal is to make adjustments BEFORE you leave the 5-7!
I don't know of any other pin combinations that are pocket hits that means a change.
How about a pocket 4-9, 7-9, 8-10, 5-10 or a 7-10. You wouldn't make changes if you leave any of these?
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by bowl1820 »

RobMautner wrote:I'm really trying to understand why so many bowlers will freely admit that they screwed up shots with their physical game, but won't even acknowledge the fact that they are sorely lacking in terms of hearing what the lanes are telling them.
In a way it's 2nd arrowitis caused by the THS, "The 2nd arrow is were the best shot is supposed to be, so if I didn't strike it must be my fault.".
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by LittleTiger »

This is very interesting topic because I have trying to learn same stuff lately. It can be very hard to belive how far inside you need to go to get best ball reaction.

Anyway, I will try give you another way of think this.

krava wrote:Does anyone have any certain pin combinations when they leave it (after what looks like a flush pocket hit) they know it is time to make some sort of change?
Even when you get strike it can be time to do adjustment. If it is hard you to see what happens then try close your eyes after your throw and LISTEN the pins. When you are playing correct line you will know that it was strike before you open your eyes again.
If you are unsure. You are playing on wrong place.


krava wrote:The lanes didn't change, I stayed in the same place the whole night. The last game I had X / X / then went all the way out to the 9th frame and threw it wide (didn't squat down) left a 4 8 10? Aimed for the 4 and missed them all, and then XXX. I could have had 260 ended up with I think 221 or something. SO I was in the right place.
This is problem with THS that they can make you think that you are doing right things when you are getting high score. What you either should look is compare your results to others.
If you won competition then you are most probably doing rights things but if you are last one you are most probably doing something very wrong. No matter what score you got.

krava wrote:Not sure what the last comment was about. If I wouldn't have messed up I would have had 260 the last game. If I would have bend down enough the other frames it would have been 300. I don't think I was in the wrong spot if I shot that high. Everytime I actually got low enough down I struck.
I had to deal with a high rpm guy throwing a plastic ball with no thumb down my track the entire night. Everyone else was throwing straight plastic balls down the lane.

The mistakes I made was not realizing fast enough why every one of my balls went several boards right of where I was aiming most of the night.
Don't worry about missing target right on competition if that is happening all the time. It is your game on that day and what you need to do is adjust your line/change ball to get good ball and pin reaction.



One thing which maybe would be beneficial for your game is to go training after league (when lanes are dry) and start throwing over 1st arrow, then over 2nd arrow, then over 3rd arrow, then over 4th arrow, then over 5th arrow, then over 6th arrow.
It will take while to find line to pocket over each of these but it is possible and when you get there remember LISTEN the pins.

You will surpise to see how far inside the best place to play is.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by krava »

I haven't read all this but I will after the reply. I have admitted that I missed my mark about 80% of the time last Thursday. The lanes could have changed for me to go from the rocket ship to the other ball. I didn't hit my mark once with the rocket ship the entire first game. I didn't have a problem with lane change, I had a severe problem with hitting the mark. I said earlier that I didn't get down low enough to clear a swing path and thus pulled the ball right. An estimate of how bad it was. 1st game 0/10 2nd game 1-2/10 3rd game 2-4/10. Its hard to estimate how off you are when the lanes let you miss right and then swing back and hit the pocket. I am going to go Sat/Sunday and have them put up a flat pattern and then find out what exactly is going on. That is the only good way to tell.

You have to hit the mark first before you can do anything else. I can't talk about lane change really if I couldnt' hit the same mark every time. I was hitting 7 8 maybe 9. I was all over the place inside of 10. I was expecting the lane to change with the straight ball. (meaning have my ball just slide down and never hook, but I never got that). The ball hooked the same in the last frame as it did in the first frame from what I saw. I do get really nervous when I see someone play the same spot as me with the plastic balls.

Ok read everything:

How about a pocket 4-9, 7-9, 8-10, 5-10 or a 7-10. You wouldn't make changes if you leave any of these?


4-9 isn't a pocket hit, if you leave the 4 then you were too high on the head pin. Pocket 7-10 I personally see a fluke (but you can see if the ball deflects to the 9 if it does then ball ball motion to the pocket ball is probably burning up) I think a 7-9 is very high on the headpin and not dead in the pocket. Dead pocket hits for me will give me a X a 10 pin or that horrible hit 5-10 or 8-10 whichever one it is. A 7 is too light in the pocket. A 9 pin is too much angle in the pocket. I have left solid 8's before in wonder. But no other combinations. I am talking about a completely flush pocket hit where the ball hits the headpin and the 3 at the same time with the same amount of ball on it.

I don't have enough experience to know what to do if I left a flush 7 10. If I thought the shot was good I would repeat it again. When I mean the shot is good, I saw the ball slide, roll and hook.

It hard to do everything and think of everything. I need to write a list of stuff on a piece of paper and have it with me to make sure I follow everything.

The list would look like this:

#1 Did the ball show all 3 phases of ball motion (or looked good going down the lane)
#2 Did you hit the mark
#3 Did you hit the breakpoint or where did the ball end up on a THS with the PL-31 thing.
#4 Where did the ball exit the pin deck
#5 Did it feel good going off the hand
#6 Look at the monitor at the speed and see if you sped it up or slowed it down.

Lately I have been doing most of these. #4 maybe 10% of the time. #3 maybe 30% of the time. What I used to do was bring a piece of paper with boxes for each frame to fill out after each shot so I can make sure I am aware of all these things. Like Thursday I was mainly concerned why I was missing so many times right and it was frustrating. I focused on one thing and forgot the others.

I am getting a lot better in observing Bad ball motion. If I see I have bad ball motion and I think I did everything correct, then I immediately do something about it even if I got a X. I got a lot of X that I thought should been a flat 10 and said I didn't deserve to carry and then did something about it.

A flat 10 is a movie 1 and 1 left or 2 and 2 left with maybe slower speed. Another option would be a ball with less surface and made to go longer and stay in the same spot. If you throw the less surface ball and it has bad ball motion then grab other ball and do a 2 and 2. I know how to move when I need to move but I didn't have to move on that one particular night.
Last edited by krava on January 4th, 2018, 2:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by RobMautner »

krava wrote:You have to hit the mark first before you can do anything else. I can't talk about lane change really if I couldnt' hit the same mark every time. I was hitting 7 8 maybe 9. I was all over the place inside of 10. I was expecting the lane to change with the straight ball. (meaning have my ball just slide down and never hook, but I never got that). The ball hooked the same in the last frame as it did in the first frame from what I saw. I do get really nervous when I see someone play the same spot as me with the plastic balls.
This is where you are totally missing the point. A house shot ASSUMES that you are not hitting your mark. That's why it is so easy. Taking your first example, if you had adjusted and were playing the correct line, you would not have left a 4-8-10, you probably would have struck. The problem is that, since you didn't adjust, you had to be more and more perfect, so when you made a mistake, you paid the ultimate price.

You come on here and ask for advice, yet when we try to give it to you, you argue. What's up with that?
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by krava »

Now I understand what your saying. Since I didn't move I was losing more and more room for error up. I appreciate the advice and I listen to it. I deserved the 4 8 10 because I missed my mark so bad and got my ball to probably 5 on the breakpoint instead of 10 and it hit the 3 pin and left a mess. The problem I have is that the more I move left the more I can't carry. I can hit the pocket and leave 10 pins all day. I had very good carry (only left 1 10 pin I believe).

remember I am trying to learn here. Would you abandon your "line" if everytime you did hit the pocket you got an X?

See if I am correct saying this:

You abandon your line for the following reasons:
#0 If you can't hit the pocket flush or ball not getting flush to the pocket
#1 It isn't carrying
#2 You have no miss room (atleast on a THS shot) or if you have limited miss room (you can miss a little to the right but not miss any to the left)
#3 The ball you are throwing is having bad ball roll (rolling out or either sliding too far. [and you don't want to do a ball change] )

The line I was playing I had miss room to the left (ball didn't jump if I missed a board or two left of 10) I had miss room 2 boards right . At the breakpoint Pl-31 or exit point whichever one that is, I had room anywhere from 8-11 there. I got that ball to like 5 and that is why I suffered.

I had miss room so much right that I threw my ball which I though was out of bounds and expecting maybe a 4 count and some how struck. I don't know what happened because I threw my head up in the air and turned my back and shook my head as I walked back and looked back and everything was gone.

I was standing on 28 with my left foot and was suppose to roll over 10 out to 8 and back in. Playing straight up the boards my ball would burn up.

On sat/sunday I am going to get a fresh ths lane. I am going to bowl 3 different shots one after another. I will be inside 10 on 1, on 10 on the other and like on 15 on the other. Then you can see what is going on and which "line" you think is the best and then let me know. Inside 10 will be a low flare ball, 10 will be a medium benchmark ball and then 15 will be a very aggressive ball and probably 2 mph slower speed used and probably 2-3 boards left of the other breakpoints.

When I go back to Las vegas, if your still coaching I will schedule an appointment if you have time so you can see what is going on.

Let me get this stuff filmed so you can see what is going on and not just me talking about it
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by LittleTiger »

Where you are looking for these boards? On arrows? On breakpoint?

You should look them on both to be able to see real line like 10-10 (straight line over second arrow), 15-10 (five boards outside over third arrow), etc.

I guess that you are actually walking more to right when you try play more on inside (which is ok, but can make line more straight than you expect).

Good article about line adjusments: https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowlin ... justments/


What comes to leaving 10 after moving inside it is very hard to guess without knowing more details of oil pattern and balls you are using.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by krava »

LittleTiger wrote:Where you are looking for these boards? On arrows? On breakpoint? NOt sure of the question? I have a line from the arrows through the breakpoint to the bottom right corner of the 6 pin.

You should look them on both to be able to see real line like 10-10 (straight line over second arrow), 15-10 (five boards outside over third arrow), etc.

I guess that you are actually walking more to right when you try play more on inside (which is ok, but can make line more straight than you expect). I probably drift 4 boards right playing that kind of line.

Good article about line adjusments: https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowlin ... justments/


What comes to leaving 10 after moving inside it is very hard to guess without knowing more details of oil pattern and balls you are using.
I leave 10 pins when I move inside because I play too "direct" not much angle to the pocket. I can't throw it out and have it come back from the inside, it just won't come back, probably because of the speed.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by Bowlmole »

RobMautner wrote:You come on here and ask for advice, yet when we try to give it to you, you argue. What's up with that?
Bingo! The mother of all questions.
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Re: Leaving a certain pin combination: Red flag for change?

Post by flibblesh »

krava wrote:I haven't read all this but I will after the reply.

This is your biggest problem to be honest. Stop assuming you know better than everyone on here. Read and follow what you are being told, the guys on here know what they are talking about.
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