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zenzd

Post subject: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:18 pm Post Number: #1 

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If you've ever heard people talk about matched, rev dominant or speed dominant bowlers, this article I have written of will help define it. What I have come up with serves to help define bowlers in a new way. Read if interested and feedback is welcome. Please let me know if I can explain anything better.
Here is the article in PDF form
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EricHartwell

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:10 am Post Number: #2 

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Is the speed figured out or measured off the hand or is it from the scoring monitors which measure the speed at 45' down lane? In your PDF you state that a bowler that has a speed of 12 mph needs 246 rpm's to be Matched. Sorry this is a rev dominant bowler or actually a speed deficient bowler. http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... evRate.JPGFrom the chart in our Wiki a bowler that has 246 rpm's needs to roll the ball 16 mph to be Matched. I am sorry but your math is not supported by what we here at BowlingChat are using to figure out layouts and ball choices. I cannot accept this arbitrary number of 20.5 in your equation. Defined as "The “20.5” in the equation above is the average rpm/mph the pros have." I would expect this number to have something to do with the length of a bowlers track which is affected by the Tilt component of the release. I would like to see something in your equation that takes into consideration the tilt and rotation affects on the speed to rev relationship. ex. Low tilt can make a Matched bowler actually rev dominant in their approach to equipment and lane play. I did not see a way to utilize the answer you get from your equation when it comes down to figuring out dual angle layouts.
_________________ Eric Hartwell
Right Handed PAP 4.75" up 1/2" 45* rotation 12* tilt 330 rev rate 15.5 mph off hand





zenzd

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:40 am Post Number: #3 

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EricHartwell wrote: Is the speed figured out or measured off the hand or is it from the scoring monitors which measure the speed at 45' down lane? In your PDF you state that a bowler that has a speed of 12 mph needs 246 rpm's to be Matched. Sorry this is a rev dominant bowler or actually a speed deficient bowler. http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... evRate.JPGFrom the chart in our Wiki a bowler that has 246 rpm's needs to roll the ball 16 mph to be Matched. I am sorry but your math is not supported by what we here at BowlingChat are using to figure out layouts and ball choices. I cannot accept this arbitrary number of 20.5 in your equation. Defined as "The “20.5” in the equation above is the average rpm/mph the pros have." I would expect this number to have something to do with the length of a bowlers track which is affected by the Tilt component of the release. I would like to see something in your equation that takes into consideration the tilt and rotation affects on the speed to rev relationship. ex. Low tilt can make a Matched bowler actually rev dominant in their approach to equipment and lane play. I did not see a way to utilize the answer you get from your equation when it comes down to figuring out dual angle layouts. Thank you for taking time to look at it. I know that I am not the most credible person, but this is just something I came up with that I thought would be interesting for others. To answer your first question, I would use the speed as measured at 45' downlane since it is the one that is displayed. Sorry if the "20.5" didn't have a reason it was there. That number is based on professionals like Norm Duke and Pete Weber. what it is is the rpm per mph the ball is thrown. I do not want to explain what is in the article, but I do think that the equation could be modified to fit your standards of being "Matched". And the other thing, I have noticed that axis tilt is not taken into account in the equation. I know this is a big factor, but don't know how it would fit into the equation, or if it needs to. All this is doing is finding a comparison of rpm to mph, not necessarily the aggressiveness of a bowler's style. Did you have a hard time reading what was written in the "Implication for drilling", or did you not understand it?





bowl1820

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:41 am Post Number: #4 

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zenzd wrote: I do not want to explain what is in the article,
Why not. Your purposing something new, explainations of how you derived your equations and what they are based on. Would greatly help others understand your work. Quote: And the other thing, I have noticed that axis tilt is not taken into account in the equation. I know this is a big factor, but don't know how it would fit into the equation, or if it needs to. You "noticed" that axis tilt is not taken into account...You only noticed? In a way this statement makes it sound like you didn't write the article, you just read and copied it. You might consider rephrasing it. Quote: All this is doing is finding a comparison of rpm to mph, So basically just finding the ratio of speed to rpm, that is very similar to whats called the "Release Ratio" in some Itrc training information. Just a fyi: It's initial rev rate vs initial ball speed that determnes the player's match category. Not what happens 45' down the lane. Monitor speeds are usually about 23mph lower than your off hand speed.
_________________ Click my green + rep button if this helps! "REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
Last edited by bowl1820 on Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:21 am, edited 4 times in total.





EricHartwell

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:58 am Post Number: #5 

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zenzd wrote: Thank you for taking time to look at it. I know that I am not the most credible person, but this is just something I came up with that I thought would be interesting for others. To answer your first question, I would use the speed as measured at 45' downlane since it is the one that is displayed. Sorry if the "20.5" didn't have a reason it was there. That number is based on professionals like Norm Duke and Pete Weber. what it is is the rpm per mph the ball is thrown. I do not want to explain what is in the article, but I do think that the equation could be modified to fit your standards of being "Matched". And the other thing, I have noticed that axis tilt is not taken into account in the equation. I know this is a big factor, but don't know how it would fit into the equation, or if it needs to. All this is doing is finding a comparison of rpm to mph, not necessarily the aggressiveness of a bowler's style. Did you have a hard time reading what was written in the "Implication for drilling", or did you not understand it?
To tell you the truth, I did not read past the first page. Now that you mentioned it I will read the rest of your article. Now after reading the rest of your article I am still not sold. The recommendations at the end are too vague and don't take into consideration Tilt and Rotation, Total angles or the Ratio for Asymmetrical ball layouts. It seems you only considered Symmetrical ball layouts. The Dual Angle process is for Asymmetrical drillings, Symmetrical drillings are derived from them. Surface prep of the bowling ball has more affect than layout and nothing in your article about it. When you are talking about matching up to a condition, ball surface needs to be an important part of that discussion.
_________________ Eric Hartwell
Right Handed PAP 4.75" up 1/2" 45* rotation 12* tilt 330 rev rate 15.5 mph off hand





zenzd

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:36 am Post Number: #6 

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bowl1820 wrote: Why not. Your purposing something new, explainations of how you derived your equations and what they are based on. Would greatly help others understand your work.
You "noticed" that axis tilt is not taken into account...You only noticed?
In a way this statement makes it sound like you didn't write the article, you just read and copied it. You might consider rephrasing it.
So basically just finding the ratio of speed to rpm, that is very similar to whats called the "Release Ratio" in some Usbc training information.
Just a fyi: It's initial rev rate vs initial ball speed that determnes the player's match category.
Not what happens 45' down the lane. Monitor speeds are usually about 23mph lower than your off hand speed. I DID write the article and I did come up with this myself. I only said that I "noticed it" because it was something I knew would affect the outcome, but did not know how to integrate it into the equation. To answer the first question in more detail, How I came up with that number was by taking an average of the professional's rpm/mph (Prosefsionals because, well, their professionals). The professional I used have speeds around 18 mph and rpm close to 380. I came to the conclusion that for most pros, who are a great role model to follow, have about 20.5 rpm for each mph they throw the ball. this is not to say that the ball turns over 20.5 times during its travel, but rather it is just a measure of revolutions per minute. As for where the speed is measured, it really is just a preference. I only say that you should use the speed given by the scores because it is the easiest to find. IF you want to calculate speed off the hands, I guess that's fine. This is definitely in early stages but, since I want this to be almost a standard, it would be good to rely on one or the other. And yes it is similar to the release ratio, but this gives lots more detail and puts numbers to it rather than just saying you need to "slow down" or "speed up."





snick

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:19 am Post Number: #7 

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Nice effort!
I think you need to factor axis tilt and rotation as well, since they have a profound effect on ball motion. I have attached a file which includes track length for various axis tilts, which might be useful to you.
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_________________ Benchmark Bowling Pro Shop Byron
RH PAP: 5.625" x 0 REVRATE: 360 SPEED: 17mph at release AR: 55º AT: 7º





EricHartwell

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:35 am Post Number: #8 

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http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... tguide.xlsThis is another chart from the Wiki that has much the same information including the effective rev rate based on the Tilt.
_________________ Eric Hartwell
Right Handed PAP 4.75" up 1/2" 45* rotation 12* tilt 330 rev rate 15.5 mph off hand





zenzd

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 2:38 pm Post Number: #9 

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EricHartwell wrote: http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=File:Axistiltguide.xls
This is another chart from the Wiki that has much the same information including the effective rev rate based on the Tilt. Thank you! I hope to incorporate axis tilt into the equation at some point, but for now, I have changed the formula to fit the matched bowler chart standards. (40/3)+(1.93*(s15))=(r/s)/x This follows the chart and gives answers close to those put forth by that chart. I recommend using mathway.com for any calculations and conversions.





bowl1820

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 3:58 pm Post Number: #10 

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zenzd wrote: I DID write the article and I did come up with this myself. Just so you know, I didn't mean to imply you didn't write the article. I was just pointing out how your reply could give that impression. Quote: I only said that I "noticed it" because it was something I knew would affect the outcome, but did not know how to integrate it into the equation. To improve your article then in it you might make mention that the players tilt would affect the outcome, but as of this writing it hasn't been integrated in to the formula. Quote: To answer the first question in more detail, How I came up with that number was by taking an average of the professional's rpm/mph (Prosefsionals because, well, their professionals). The professional I used have speeds around 18 mph and rpm close to 380. 18mph / 380rpm is pretty close to the C.A.T.S data (19mph/375rpm) ( Note this chart is from 06, current rpms most likely are higher. But this should be fairly accurate for most league bowlers) Attachment: CATS as of 06.jpg Quote: As for where the speed is measured, it really is just a preference. I only say that you should use the speed given by the scores because it is the easiest to find. IF you want to calculate speed off the hands, I guess that's fine. This is definitely in early stages but, since I want this to be almost a standard, it would be good to rely on one or the other. The main reason off hand (release velocity) speeds are mainly used is accuracy. Because the monitor speeds are notorious for being inaccurate, lane conditions, differing ball surfaces, lane play and sensor maintenance all can have a affect on the monitors measured ball speed. Quote: And yes it is similar to the release ratio, but this gives lots more detail and puts numbers to it rather than just saying you need to "slow down" or "speed up." While you might have more numbers to show exact amounts. It still boils down to the player having to either "slow down" or "speed up." their revs or ball speed to get a different match. With speed being the easiest for most players to manipulate, Most players can't manipulate their revs at least not well enough to make 1020 30 rpm adjustments. Quote: Thank you! I hope to incorporate axis tilt into the equation at some point, but for now, I have changed the formula to fit the matched bowler chart standards.
(40/3)+(1.93*(s15))=(r/s)/x Remember to update the formulas in your posted pdf article. Your article is a good start, I might would include a example page of the formula being used for different bowler specs and how they would compare.
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_________________ Click my green + rep button if this helps! "REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."





zenzd

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:22 pm Post Number: #11 

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bowl1820 wrote: Just so you know, I didn't mean to imply you didn't write the article. I was just pointing out how your reply could give that impression. To improve your article then in it you might make mention that the players tilt would affect the outcome, but as of this writing it hasn't been integrated in to the formula. 18mph / 380rpm is pretty close to the C.A.T.S data (19mph/375rpm) ( Note this chart is from 06, current rpms most likely are higher. But this should be fairly accurate for most league bowlers) Attachment: CATS as of 06.jpg The main reason off hand (release velocity) speeds are mainly used is accuracy. Because the monitor speeds are notorious for being inaccurate, lane conditions, differing ball surfaces, lane play and sensor maintenance all can have a affect on the monitors measured ball speed. While you might have more numbers to show exact amounts. It still boils down to the player having to either "slow down" or "speed up." their revs or ball speed to get a different match. With speed being the easiest for most players to manipulate, Most players can't manipulate their revs at least not well enough to make 1020 30 rpm adjustments. Remember to update the formulas in your posted pdf article. Your article is a good start, I might would include a example page of the formula being used for different bowler specs and how they would compare. Sorry. I never mean to come off as rude. I do appreciate your input. I think I might write up another article with this formula. it seems to fit the standards better and my article is heavily based on the original. because of this, I would have to change a lot of the article. Thanks for all of your help and suggestions. This will help significantly.





EricHartwell

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:31 am Post Number: #12 

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zenzd wrote: Thank you! I hope to incorporate axis tilt into the equation at some point, but for now, I have changed the formula to fit the matched bowler chart standards.
(40/3)+(1.93*(s15))=(r/s)/x
This follows the chart and gives answers close to those put forth by that chart. I recommend using mathway.com for any calculations and conversions.
Your new formula is adapted to speed off the hand and is in line with the Ball speed vs Rev rate chart But for only the range listed. Speeds and rev rates above and below there is error. There is a spreadsheet that one of our members put together, Mo's total angles.... It is to figure the speed to rev relationship. It also does not take into consideration Tilt or Rotation but gives a starting point for the Total angles. Matched being 95*. You would adjust for Tilt and Rotation from there. Check it out here.... viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8770
_________________ Eric Hartwell
Right Handed PAP 4.75" up 1/2" 45* rotation 12* tilt 330 rev rate 15.5 mph off hand





zenzd

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:00 am Post Number: #13 

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EricHartwell wrote: Your new formula is adapted to speed off the hand and is in line with the Ball speed vs Rev rate chart But for only the range listed. Speeds and rev rates above and below there is error. There is a spreadsheet that one of our members put together, Mo's total angles.... It is to figure the speed to rev relationship. It also does not take into consideration Tilt or Rotation but gives a starting point for the Total angles. Matched being 95*. You would adjust for Tilt and Rotation from there. Check it out here.... viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8770Here is a formula that has no underspeed issues. It works in the reverse manner of the most recent. as long as no one throws at a speed over 22 mph, this will work. 26.8(1.93(22s))=(r/s)/x Also, thanks for showing me Mo's total angles. That is very interesting





EricHartwell

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:45 am Post Number: #14 

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I am still finding inconsistencies. examples...
12mph 250rpm=2.777
15mph 400rpm=2.006
Each of these specs come out to 120* Totals. With that being said each bowler in the examples are equally rev dominant. The results of your equation should be the same.
_________________ Eric Hartwell
Right Handed PAP 4.75" up 1/2" 45* rotation 12* tilt 330 rev rate 15.5 mph off hand





zenzd

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:42 am Post Number: #15 

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EricHartwell wrote: I am still finding inconsistencies. examples...
12mph 250rpm=2.777
15mph 400rpm=2.006
Each of these specs come out to 120* Totals. With that being said each bowler in the examples are equally rev dominant. The results of your equation should be the same. It is not good to base how balanced a bowler is off that total dual angle xls. Because it is based solely on the matched bowlers chart you have shown me, it gives an angle value considered "matched" for very odd combinations of speed and revs. Try it yourself, when you plug numbers for a bowler at 11mph and 0rpm, it says it has a total angle value of 95, or "matched". You will get the same value of 95 even if you plug in numbers for a bowler at 1mph and 500rpm, which doesn't make any sense. As for both of the bowlers described above, they are not equally rev dominant. Think about it this way. if a bowler has a lower speed, their ball is on the lane for a longer period of time. A 12mph bowler's ball is on the lane for 3.41sec, where a 15mph bowler's ball is on the lane for 2.73. That extra time gives the lower speed bowler's ball a better chance to react to friction on the lane than for the faster bowler. Given this, we can figure that lower speed bowlers need fewer revs to be matched, and a highspeed player needs high revs. This new formula accounts for that. it also has the added highlight of giving reasonable numbers for speed/rpm at matched, as opposed to 11mph + 0rpm, or 1mph + 500rpm





EricHartwell

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:57 am Post Number: #16 

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zenzd wrote: It is not good to base how balanced a bowler is off that total dual angle xls. Because it is based solely on the matched bowlers chart you have shown me, it gives an angle value considered "matched" for very odd combinations of speed and revs. Try it yourself, when you plug numbers for a bowler at 11mph and 0rpm, it says it has a total angle value of 95, or "matched". You will get the same value of 95 even if you plug in numbers for a bowler at 1mph and 500rpm, which doesn't make any sense.
As for both of the bowlers described above, they are not equally rev dominant. Think about it this way. if a bowler has a lower speed, their ball is on the lane for a longer period of time. A 12mph bowler's ball is on the lane for 3.41sec, where a 15mph bowler's ball is on the lane for 2.73. That extra time gives the lower speed bowler's ball a better chance to react to friction on the lane than for the faster bowler. Given this, we can figure that lower speed bowlers need fewer revs to be matched, and a highspeed player needs high revs.
This new formula accounts for that. it also has the added highlight of giving reasonable numbers for speed/rpm at matched, as opposed to 11mph + 0rpm, or 1mph + 500rpm
Plugging in numbers like 1mph and 500 revs doesn't make sense. And a bowler with 0 revs no matter the speed while that bowler is out there also doesn't make sense. So while we are on the subject what about the bowler that actually spins the ball backwards. They are out there. The thing is those bowlers could care less about being Matched. Your formula also will not work for ridiculous numbers. 1 mph 500 rpm is a negative number 36.4166... while other rev dominant numbers are greater than 1 ??? I am not going to sit here and argue the validity or accuracy of your formula. If the answer you get from your equation would represent a multiplier for the total angles in the dual angle system I would find use for it. If you think it is of value to your game by all means go ahead and use it. Don't get me wrong I am not trying to discourage you from finding ways to understand how ones game can be evaluated and adjusted to score better. Do realize there is more to it than speed and revs. Tilt/Rotation, Ball, surface prep and layout are important parts of the equation too.
_________________ Eric Hartwell
Right Handed PAP 4.75" up 1/2" 45* rotation 12* tilt 330 rev rate 15.5 mph off hand





MegaMav

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:24 am Post Number: #17 

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Like some other aspects in bowling, layouts in many cases can be a feel thing. If I thought I could have made a web layout generator based on all the variables, I would have done it already. We're better off having people learning about it than ignorantly plugging numbers into a form or formula and running to their pro shop with the sheet.
_________________ Please press the button if you feel I've been helpful. “When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.”  Bill Walsh





scotts33

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:47 pm Post Number: #18 

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MegaMav wrote: Like some other aspects in bowling, layouts in many cases can be a feel thing. If I thought I could have made a web layout generator based on all the variables, I would have done it already. We're better off having people learning about it than ignorantly plugging numbers into a form or formula and running to their pro shop with the sheet. Completely agree Eric!
I learned something by trying a new layout for me this past ball I drilled that I would have never considered in the past. Thinking out of the box at times can be a very good thing and help performance.





river800

Post subject: Re: Equation to find Matched number of a bowler Posted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:25 pm Post Number: #19 

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scotts33 wrote: Completely agree Eric!
I learned something by trying a new layout for me this past ball I drilled that I would have never considered in the past. Thinking out of the box at times can be a very good thing and help performance.
What new layout did you use on a ball?
_________________ Stats: Right handed Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently Speed around 16.5 off hand Tilt in the 1416* range Rev rate: around 325  350 or so Axis rotation in the 2570* range I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...





