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 Post subject: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:36 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Lane condition: Fresh oil before laague 5 man league which bowled 3 games on it.

I bowled 2 games on one set averaged 220 didn't struggle. Then moved 2 lanes up to try to run into different "mess".

I started off 2nd arrow to 8 at the exit point and then back in. A few balls later, the ball couldn't get to the exit point and started breaking too soon. I was using a storm rocketship (hy-road bascially). I could either move left or I could ball down to a ball that can get me to the exit point etc. (I focus on getting that ball to 8 or 9 at the start of the 2nd most right range finder.) I balled down to a match pearl and threw it correctly, it didn't hook early. It hit the exit point and was about 8 or so at the 2nd range finder and bascially reacted like a strong ball burning up (rolled out and flat). My next step was maybe that ball is too weak to play that line. I took the strongest pearl I have which is the c300 swerve FX and threw the same shot. I got it to the correct place at the exit point and it did the same thing. It didn't hook any better. Bascially it just hit the 3 pin and missed the head pin completely. It looked like it just burned up but it can't burn up because the soild ball didn't burn up. My thinking is that it might be carry down right there where the range finder is making the ball slide or something. I thought that most carry down is in the center of the lane not all the way to the 8 board at 40 feet or something.

After that, I moved left with the Rocketship playing accross 12 at the arrows and that worked after a few shots breaking it down. What good are the pearl balls?? I thought the pearl balls give you length when the lanes fry up a bit. I got length but I got 0 backend almost. I think that was carry down because I don't see how that ball could have burned up.

I am just stunned that i went from overhooking, hitting almost brooklyn, to having the ball just flat out "roll out" and die with almost no backend without changing the line.

So what was my faulty thinking? Not taking in consideration of carrydown because so many people bowling on it and that many games?

I am not sure but I think I tried to move 3 and 2 with the rocketship once it started over hooking, but it didn't quite make it back to the pocket so I moved back right and used a ball with more length to reach the exit point but then it rolled out. I didn't have anything stronger then the rocketship in my bag. I believe if I had something stronger (more surface rockethip is probably at 4000/5000 gritt right now) in my bag, I could have delt with that situation.

SO when is the pearl balls used? Used for lanes with a shorter pattern (fresh) to get more length? Pearls have severe problems with carry down I believe right?


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:35 am Post Number: #2 Post
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next time you move left, try and slow the ball down just a tiny bit and see if it won't corner. you can often accomplish this by moving half a foot closer to the approach


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:34 am Post Number: #3 Post
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So, your original question: Where is my faulty logic?

1. You are giving way too much thought to the cover materials and ignoring everything else: the surface, the core, and the layout. Pearl balls "go longer" because they usually come with a polished OOB finish. If you put the same surface on two balls with the same core, the same layout, and the same cover material (formulation) but one is pearl and one is solid, you will get the same ball reaction. Believe me. I've done it several times. Putting out balls with a solid, a pearl, and a hybrid cover material and the same core is simply a marketing ploy to get you to buy three of the same ball.

2. You are ignoring lane topography and the effect of the particular bowlers who have bowled on a pair. Sometimes it's just not possible to play right of the third arrow regardless of which ball you choose to roll.

3. As you have started looking at BTM, please read my most recent article entitled, "The Dead Zone Revisited." In it I give a detailed explanation of the myth of carry down in modern bowling.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:22 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
3. As you have started looking at BTM, please read my most recent article entitled, "The Dead Zone Revisited." In it I give a detailed explanation of the myth of carry down in modern bowling.


It's not myth and it doesn't matter how many articles you write refuting it.
Each time any ball travels down the lane it deposits oil from the front of the lane to the middle and to the backend of the lane.

On reactive balls after the first revolution there are 2 points on the ball called bow ties where the next flare line will cross over. You end up with these short dots or lines deposited on the lane each revolution after the first. It is a cumulative effect over time.

Non flaring reactive and urethane balls, after the first revolution of a clean ball, will leave a whole line of oil on the ball path.

Don't point me to that outdated Slowinski article, oils back then aren't close to what they are now.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:00 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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I'm not pointing this out because I wrote an article, I'm pointing it out because the tapes that were taken at my request showed that there were only two streaks across the entire lane that contained even two units of oil. The others were all one unit or less. This is not enough oil for reactive resin balls to even recognize.

I realize that it is very difficult to let go of long-held beliefs, but sometimes we just have to in order to grow and change with the times.

I'm not here to argue. I'm just stating what I believe to be true.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:03 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
I'm not pointing this out because I wrote an article, I'm pointing it out because the tapes that were taken at my request showed that there were only two streaks across the entire lane that contained even two units of oil. The others were all one unit or less. This is not enough oil for reactive resin balls to even recognize.

I realize that it is very difficult to let go of long-held beliefs, but sometimes we just have to in order to grow and change with the times.

I'm not here to argue. I'm just stating what I believe to be true.


Rob, not saying you're wrong, but it's going to vary by center. The house where I bowled league for ten seasons had major lane play issues from time to time. My league was Friday night, and as sure as the sun comes up in the East, if the kids had off school that day, the lanes would suck that night. Sure, they'd do a head run before we started, but they did nothing to the back ends. Therefore, there would be a huge amount of carrydown, due to a LOT of open play with plastic house balls going down the lane all day long. Once we fried the mid-lanes, combined with the carrydown, forget scoring.

Now, if they would have done like they should, and cleaned the backends when they oiled, it wouldn't have been an issue.

I read your article in BTM, but I honestly don't remember if you did any testing after a full day of open bowling with house balls. If not, it might be interesting to see just how much carrydown there is in such a scenario. Although it would be difficult to do, it would also be interesting to do testing on different lane surfaces.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:33 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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As I stated in the article:

"Also, please keep in mind that the carrydown referred to in this article only includes oil that starts out within the pattern and that is carried by the balls down past the end of the pattern. Back ends that are cleaned insufficiently to begin with due to lane maintenance issues, back ends that are single-stripped instead of double-stripped, and other such anomalies that cause the back ends to not be as clean as they perhaps could be are different issues entirely and are not considered within the scope of this article."

When I refer to carry down, I am only talking about oil carried down the lane after a league bowling on freshly oiled lanes. When there is open bowling before the league, you are dealing with a whole different set of issues; issues that really should be addressed with the center proprietor.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:04 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Rob, do I appreciate your articles and insight - but we don't bowl in a perfect world.

Proprietors allow happy hour office parties and open bowling on our pairs minutes before league. All they need are 3 units to be sanctioned... Sometimes urethane and plastic account for 50% of the traffic during our mixed leagues. Often they are not stripped property and the additive effect is enormous. Double stripping each pair? LOL! Cleaning the pin decks would be a miracle.

I (often) personally throw low flare reactives with less than a 1/2" of track. These are modern balls with modern cores, but they don't flare. Can they carrydown? Yes, I'd wager.

So, while I understand your caveat, many of us can't discount carrydown as a legitimate factor. It does exist, under OUR circumstances. One tape, on one pair, at one center, after one league is not enough data to prove otherwise. Ignoring it means our mental models are flawed and our strategies for dealing with it are incomplete.

How about an article on "Most of the time, carrydown is not an issue but..."

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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:04 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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The question is not whether carrydown exists or not, IT DOES! To prove it all anyone has to do is walk down to the end of the lanes after a league and look you'll see it.

The question is whether or not there's enough carrydown present to influence ball motion. That's the debate.

One thing that causes problems in the debate though is, there has not been much empirical evidence gathered on the subject and what there is available has come from limited test samples and/or just anecdotal evidence.

Another thing is in Slowinski's and Rob's articles there's these little caveats, Which IMO are not that little.

Such as Joe's "Unless you come to a bowling center after hours of open play or a birthday party"
or
Rob's "Back ends that are cleaned insufficiently to begin with due to lane maintenance issues, back ends that are single-stripped instead of double-stripped, and other such anomalies that cause the back ends to not be as clean as they perhaps could be are different issues entirely and are not considered within the scope of this article."

These "anomalies" to me are more the rule, not the exception most places.

Most regular houses you do come in after hours of open play or a birthday party, Most don't double strip lanes for league, lane and lane machine maintenance is not kept totally up to date.

More leagues are made up of bowlers using a wide range equipment from rubber up to the most recent high tech wonders and kept in various conditions from NIB to totally oil soaked, playing multiple lines.

Most houses are not made up of PBA tour and PBA senor tour, Junior gold etc. players, bowling on top of the line lane conditions, playing the lanes in vary similar fashion with top shape equipment.

So carrydown in these situations is probability more common than is thought and possibly a factor.

Especially if you combine it with depletion!

Say If carrydown doesn't really affect a ball working at it's optimum, What if the ball is at less than optimum because it's hit depletion before the carrydown? Might not what carrydown there is have a affect then.

I'm not saying Joe or Rob are wrong, just that a lot of is based on a limited data set.

In other words no ones gone around to the Mayberry lanes and checked whats happening there.

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Last edited by bowl1820 on Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:58 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:43 am Post Number: #10 Post
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So here's the deal guys. My body has given out. I am no longer bowling in competitive leagues, and may well have written my last article. I am still coaching Junior Gold and giving lessons to those who care enough to pay $100 per lesson. If the proprietor in your house is not giving you a fresh lane condition to bowl in a high average league, then find somewhere else to bowl. Any proprietor who does not realize that leagues are their bread and butter doesn't deserve to have you bowling there. If you stay where they don't care, then you get what you get. Plain and simple. If you drive the extra miles for a year, you will most probably get what you want.

PS. I am now bowling in two recreational leagues. BOTH are bowled on fresh oil. Just saying'.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:54 am Post Number: #11 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
So, your original question: Where is my faulty logic?

1. You are giving way too much thought to the cover materials and ignoring everything else: the surface, the core, and the layout. Pearl balls "go longer" because they usually come with a polished OOB finish. If you put the same surface on two balls with the same core, the same layout, and the same cover material (formulation) but one is pearl and one is solid, you will get the same ball reaction. Believe me. I've done it several times. Putting out balls with a solid, a pearl, and a hybrid cover material and the same core is simply a marketing ploy to get you to buy three of the same ball.



1a. I wasn't ignoring the surface. I downgraded to a ball with more surface on it to get more length. That was intentional. You are correct I completely ignore the core. I am not sure what I should be thinking about with regards to that? Should I be thinking about differential and getting a ball that might spin up sooner since it is getting too far down the lane? The layouts of the ball I take in consideration. the swerve FX is drilled long and strong and the match pearl is drilled with low flare. I did consider the layout because I was trying to get more backend out of the ball when the first pearl died on me. I considered the layout of the ball today because there was just too much backend today. The only thing I really don't consider is the core. I need more details on how I should approach that though?

2. You are ignoring lane topography and the effect of the particular bowlers who have bowled on a pair. Sometimes it's just not possible to play right of the third arrow regardless of which ball you choose to roll.

2a. I am not sure who bowled on the lane or where they were bowling at when I got on it. I have no problem playing 3rd arrow or left of it if I need to. If I can't get the ball to the exit point because it rolls too soon because of friction, I will keep moving left as far as I have to. I didn't have to move that far left to hit the pocket on that particular pair.


I
3. As you have started looking at BTM, please read my most recent article entitled, "The Dead Zone Revisited." In it I give a detailed explanation of the myth of carry down in modern bowling.


I will read that acticle again and thanks for writing it. I understand the i should have moved left and used a ball with more surface. I also understand about your body giving out. I have an extremely sprained wrist, my ankle is minor sprained, my shoulder starting hurting again and it is just too much stuff going on to bowl good. I missed 3 easy 1 pin spares today because I couldn't keep my wrist behind the ball and i pulled my arm to the left. I haven't done this in a several weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 4:13 am Post Number: #12 Post
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Sorry I asked the question, This is a little out of control here. I asked this question before and the same thing happend. I asked the question before when I didn't know anything about exit points, break points etc. I now know more so I asked it again because it might make more since.

here are fallacies in my thinking. #1 A reactive ball soakes up oil and doesn't push the oil down the lane, only plastic and urethane do that.

#2 Only the middle part of the lane gets carry down (maybe between 10 and 10. The outside part of the lane doesn't get carry down.

I have this covered now so no use to fight over it. If you experienced what I did the answer is get a ball with a little more surface on it because obviously there was some kind of carry down in that one little section.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:34 am Post Number: #13 Post
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Sometimes the best option is to roll a straighter shot to the pocket, especially if no one has "found it". The objective is to win the game, the score is for the ego.

Believe your eyes.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:45 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
... If the proprietor in your house is not giving you a fresh lane condition to bowl in a high average league, then find somewhere else to bowl. Any proprietor who does not realize that leagues are their bread and butter doesn't deserve to have you bowling there. If you stay where they don't care, then you get what you get. Plain and simple. If you drive the extra miles for a year, you will most probably get what you want.


Hi, Rob! Unlike LV, I don't have the luxury of a bowling center on every corner. Mine are 30+ miles apart, and the attitudes of the proprietors are similar (only game in town). In the largest center here (36 lanes), the oil man has been at the job for over 35 years, and he ain't gonna change. I've been after him for over a year to get me a copy of the house oil pattern chart, or the oil machine program sheet - still don't have it. With him knowledge of the lane conditions is "power", and he ain't sharing his ...

The owner and the staff at the desk show no signs of promoting the sport (usually can't even give you information about the available leagues - you have to track down the league secretaries yourself), just there to raise the rates and collect the money.

About a month ago, I attended a meeting out of my area with a group of people that included several center and pro shop owners/managers. It was an entirely different experience being in the midst of progressive people who want to promote the sport.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:23 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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It is really painful to me to read posts like this. Bowling is such a wonderful sport as it is one of the few that can be enjoyed by everyone. If you want to see something painful, watch someone who has never played golf attempt it for the first time. There are no bumpers on golf courses! With that being said, regardless of the level of play of their most inexperienced customers, golf course superintendents do their best to give all of their customers the very best playing conditions possible. It is very unfortunate to hear about bowling proprietors who have this "only game in town" attitude. What they do, or don't do, may not hurt them initially, but they are hurting the sport in the long run and they, too, will eventually feel the pain as they are forced to close their doors.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:49 am Post Number: #16 Post
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Rob, I feel your pain. I don't want to hijack this thread as this has been discussed elsewhere. For a bowling center to survive and prosper, they must change -- going from bowling centers to entertainment centers. In the past few months, I've been in a few (eg Ft. Wayne and Myrtle Beach, etc) and the contrast is stark -- drinks, arcades and plasma screens, plastic balls and dry/unattended lanes, psychedelic lighting, and loud music. In these places, bowling takes up less than 1/3 of the floor space to give way to the entertainment aspect.


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 Post subject: Re: Where is my faulty logic at exactly? reading lanes
 Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 3:31 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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As for the error and logic in reading the lanes, you lost your entry angle to the pocket. You experienced midlane burnout and we're using too strong of a ball for the speed you were throwing at. What you should have done is use a weaker and weaker ball if you can't speed up, until you found a way to the pocket again. That would be your "B" game not your A game. As long as you have the pocket 9 is a good shot and an easy spare.

As for Carry down I only argued with Rob once on this and saw I wasn't going to change his mind. Lane topography types of bowling balls used spare shooting low flare cause more carry down then High flare balls IF the center has hard lane surface and low viscosity oil. factors like temperature, humidity also play into this. Oil viscosity, oil volume, and a combination of the above, will cause a lot of carry down under certain circumstances.

I bowled on a medium length sport pattern with 31 mL of oil in the first half of the lane. After one game my ball went from hooking with carry to leaving five pins in the pocket, to not getting to the pocket and leaving washouts. I held the same ball in my hand way too long obviously. It was not rolling out. The ball was spinning and not grabbing. That is not roll out. I know what roll out is and I just increase speed or ball down if I have to. Take a 5 Man league all shooting spares with spare balls most of them. And the same thing will happen. thats one game rolled every two frames. most shots change after warmups in these circumstances. but at the end of game 1 thats 5 games per lane. it takes 3 frames with 4 man teams to bowl over 1 game.

Again topography type of oil can close to eliminate carry down in some houses. But I will take you to two houses around here where carry down on the right oil pattern with enough volume will happen every time WITH stripped backends and you can't tell me anything different. I would put money up in a match for anyone who want to come play them by adjusting for rollout instead of carrydown. I'd win every time.

As I said, when I see a ball spinning towards the hole not getting into, or barely getting into the hook phase, losing its reaction by not grabbing, that's carrydown. it ain't getting into the roll phase. It's not rolling out or burning up, its skidding still I am 100% sure of that.

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