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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 4:34 pm Post Number: #21 Post
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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:45 pm Post Number: #22 Post
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If you are inserting your thumb all the way in then that span is way too long. When you insert all three fingers your thumb web should be a bit stretched but not super tight. This is probably the reason you need a lot of reverse thumb pitch.

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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:40 am Post Number: #23 Post
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So I had another drilling session yesterday.
Took 3/8 off both MF and RF.
Went for 0 linear and 0 lateral in the thumb.

Definitely a completely different feel. Bowled 3 games yesterday, going back to the lanes today. No pain issues so far. I think I need the span to be a tad longer, and more forward in the thumb but it's definitely a good start. No pain issues at all.

I'm having an issue with the thumbhole tho.
It feels like, I can't insert my thumb fully, even when the fingers aren't in the holes.
It's strange, because the hole is a tad too large.
We opened it up a tad more than usual, because of the feeling that I can’t get my thumb in.
When I add tape, which I need to get my desired snugness, that feeling gets even worse.

Does anyone have an idea what might be the issue here?


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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:00 am Post Number: #24 Post
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Make sure your index finger and thumb webbing are making contact with the ball's surface. Is the thumbhole ovaled? You may also need some taper in the thumbhole?

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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:52 pm Post Number: #25 Post
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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:20 pm Post Number: #26 Post
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Hello. Had a busy week, but here's an update with pictures.
i fixed the "can't insert thumb fully" issue. I tapered my thumbhole and did a bit of ovaling and now the issue is gone.

Here's a picture of my new span and a picture of my fingers inserted into the ball:
Image Image



Fit doesn't feel comfortable at, lost the ball a couple of times at the backswing so a lot of grip pressure is needed unless I tape up the already snug hole to a point where my thumb starts to hang up at the release. Ball feels very wobbly in my hand and not secure at all since it doesn't sit securely in my palm. It feels like pressure is distributed among the fingertips and thumb only. Ball feels very heavy because of that. No Pain issues, just loads of discomfort.

Since I don't want to give up on the short span yet, next step would be to add forward pitch in both thumb and fingers so they are in line with the wiki recommendations. need at least 1/8 more forward in thumb and 1/4 more forward in fingers to match the charts. But for some reason I doubt that this will make the fits heaps more comfortable.


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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:11 pm Post Number: #27 Post
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Bruhls wrote:
need at least 1/8 more forward in thumb and 1/4 more forward in fingers to match the charts. But for some reason I doubt that this will make the fits heaps more comfortable.

Thats a lot of difference and will make your hand feel more "in" the ball instead of "on" the ball.

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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:18 pm Post Number: #28 Post
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The spans look a lot better. Maybe also try reducing the left lateral a little. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 6:29 pm Post Number: #29 Post
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The ball was redrilled at 0 linerar 0 lateral for thumb as a starting point for the wiki fit.

I still have those 2 balls with the 1/2" left pitch, but they have those really long spans and reverse pitch in the thumb. While I still think they feel far more natural and comfortable to me, I'm gonna try and get a fit according to the wiki guidelines first before I start messing with those balls again.


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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:59 am Post Number: #30 Post
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Working the thumb to an oval so you could insert your thumb completely was a must, spans look good, all we need to do is get the pitches correct and learn to relax the hand. The ball should let go of you, you shouldn't have a need to let go of the ball, trust is key.

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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:05 am Post Number: #31 Post
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I've been doing the thumbs myself for the last 3 drillings and it's been a game changer.
I just let my driller drill the hole 2 sizes too small (I use urethane slugs), no beveling at all.
Then I take my sweet time to sculpt the thumb with a workout tool, a round file, sanding paper and bevel knives. Can't believe how much difference that makes.

I think I'm heading towards the end of my journey looking for the perfect fit.
Not going into the details too much, but we increased my span by 3/32 and 1/16 above the recommended span, went 1/8 reverse in the fingers instead of forward, and it's almost close to perfect in terms of feel. My span is now 7/8 shorter than my drillings before I started this thread.
Looking back it's almost funny why I was wondering why I'm having pain issues. I've spent almost 250 bucks on drillings this month, but it was so worth it. I learned so much and I've done the wiki fit procedure with my wife as well, and she's also way more comfortable now after tweaking her spans and pitches.

Thank to everyone in here for guiding me towards the right path.
I've spent hundreds of hours looking through this whole forum and wiki articles. I've learned to much in here it's unbelievable. I've found my love for this sport again thanks to you and the wiki. You guys are a godsend!

Since my pain issues went away I've been bowling around 20-25 games a week, basically only taking breaks to give my body some rest, not because I'm having pain issues.
It's time for me to stop focusing on the drillings (for now) and really focus on my physical game.
I plan on getting a few videos up in the upcoming weeks and hopefully get some coaching and pointers in the coaching forums. I've learned so much looking through the posts in there.

Cheers guys, have a nice weekend!


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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 5:29 pm Post Number: #32 Post
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That's great news. Congratulations on taking control, experimenting and refining the fit. Make it meet your individual needs. Don't accept pain or an uncomfortable fit. Being able to create the right oval, taper, bevel, etc - makes a huge difference.

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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:18 am Post Number: #33 Post
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This post reminded me of how I worked out my ball fit. Took months not days and a never ending experiment. It's great to be here and have enthusiastic experts to share their views.

Congratulations Bruhls.

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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:54 pm Post Number: #34 Post
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Hi guys

I wanted to revive this thread with a question.

This is my Drill sheet: https://imgur.com/dmwcIch
Span check: https://imgur.com/YaZDGj9
This is my Hand: https://imgur.com/VOutcV0

My middle finger is drilled 3/8th shorter than my middle finger, when in reality the middle finger is longer. It's because my fingers curve around the ball. Somehow that what I ended up with in terms of comfort and trying to not force my hand into an unnatural position when gripping a bowling ball.
But I have the impression that it promotes a certain release motion and therefor ball roll, and I've been really struggling with that. My driller also say it's weird each time he does a new ball.

I have almost all forward roll with next to no side rotation unless I overturn. of course a ring finger that much longer promotes more forward roll... With my old drillings I usually had the problem of too much side rotation. I also noticed a significant drop in revs compared to before.


I just want to make it clear that I'm well aware that the drilling doesn't dictate the ball motion per se, and that most of it comes from the release motion itself and everything leading up to it. I also do know that I have lot's of problems with my game. Just wanted to get this out of the way.
My game certainly changed a lot over the past 2 months, but my release somehow changed with the new drilling without me trying to change anything, and I can't get my old release back either....
Leaving the physical aspects of my release aside (will cover that in my coaching post), my question basically is:

Should I reconsider my drilling because it promotes a certain style that might not fit my game or limit my options in terms of release variants?


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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 5:59 pm Post Number: #35 Post
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Looking at the picture of your fingers, I would expect to seen the spans within 1/16" or so of each other, as it looks like your middle finger is about 1/4" longer than the ring. You definitely shouldn't have the ring finger 3/8" longer on the span based on the picture.

Looking at the span check pictures, I'd bet both of your spans are short now. The middle finger by a lot. How tight was your thumb web when you took the pictures? Are you pressing down on the back of your thumb when doing the span check? I see the middle finger line go from looking an 1/8" short in the first pic to looking just right when you check the ring finger span. That tells me you're probably too relaxed on the first picture. I suggest you have someone else take the picture so we can see the thumb, the web, and the finger holes with the midpoint between the knuckles marked, all in one picture.

I also noticed that back on Oct 1 you said you went to 1/8" reverse in the fingers, but the drill sheet has you 1/8" forward in the middle finger and 0 in the ring.

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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:30 pm Post Number: #36 Post
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This is the latest drilling on my new tag cannon. It was basically just a slight adjustment on finger pitches to even out pressure levels and added 1/16th span to RF. I didn't notice any change in terms of ball motion, it's just a hair more comfortable.

Fingers lie flat on the ball like in the picture above: https://imgur.com/jBN29uV
Fingers lie flat on the ball "relaxed": https://imgur.com/YgtVSW8
Hand inserted fully: https://imgur.com/DX5Au2t

I'm not pressing the thumb against the back wall when doing the span check. Tried doing it, it changed spans by 1/16th each on the short side. I use layered tapes and a pretty snug thumbhole, not much wiggle room anyways. Would that be the correct way of doing the span check?


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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:49 pm Post Number: #37 Post
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Bruhls wrote:
Fingers lie flat on the ball like in the picture above: https://imgur.com/jBN29uV
Fingers lie flat on the ball "relaxed": https://imgur.com/YgtVSW8


You shouldn't have to stretch your hand to get the lines to the gripping edges.

To double check span,

Insert your thumb into the thumbhole and lay your fingers across the holes, Then hold the ball like your going to roll it. So that it settles into your hand naturally.

Example:
Image

Then without moving your hand, Rotate the ball back up so you can see where the edge of the holes are in relation to the midpoint lines drawn between the two joints. (or get a picture from below like this one.)

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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:54 pm Post Number: #38 Post
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bowl1820 wrote:
To double check span,

Insert your thumb into the thumbhole and lay your fingers across the holes, Then hold the ball like your going to roll it. So that it settles into your hand naturally.

Then without moving your hand, Rotate the ball back up so you can see where the edge of the holes are in relation to the midpoint lines drawn between the two joints. (or get a picture from below like this one.)


Doing it this way I'd say it's exactly the same as in the picture above.


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 Post subject: Re: extreme lateral thumb pitches?
 Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 9:13 pm Post Number: #39 Post
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Bruhls wrote:
Hello everyone

1) I’ve been constantly dropping the ball way too early.

2) This goes for the 1/8 reverse thumb, as well as the 3/8 reverse thumb ball.

3) Thumbhole size seems correct.

4) I have a really tight thumb hole.
I have posted on this before, but here goes, 80% of the proper grip is established by span and pitches......hole sizes make up the other 20%. So why in the world do so many people try to control the release with a very tight thumb hole, makes no sense?


5) Grip Pressure is as slow as it has ever been.
Let's see, low grip pressure combined with too much release pitch in the thumb hole equals dropped bowling ball.....tight thumb hole or not!

6) In those instances where I don’t drop it early, or rotate my hand too early, I have the feeling that I just can’t get good revs on the ball.
Rev rate is a function of how long the fingers stay in the ball after the thumb exits. Thumb dropping out of ball early combined with poor finger position relative to the equator of the ball equal low rev rate.

7) I’m positive, that the dropping issue is mostly technique related (not staying behind the ball long enough), so I’ll be working on that before I make any further changes. But the fingers somehow feel off at the release.

Stay behind the ball long enough is a great technique for making the ten pin....not so much for striking.

8) You know that feeling when your thumb is out of the ball and you feel the weight on your fingers before they accelerating through the ball? I just don’t have that anymore.

Again, if the fingers are too far above the equator of the ball during thumb exit, rev rate will be low.

See attachment below. The red line equals the equator of the ball. In example #1, the fingers have a much longer distance to travel to the top of the ball than example #2. Example #1 rev rate will have a higher rev rate.

If you want to have a more relaxed hand, do it with pitches and span....not a tighter thumb hole.
Cheers


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