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 Post subject: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:33 am Post Number: #1 Post
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Condition: Suppose to be fresh oil, new kegal walker machines with current oil, oiled 38 feet I believe.

I started with a Storm Match soild drilled low flare. 1st shot, (threw down 8 board) I couldn't get the ball to the correct board on the exit point (hooked too soon) and it went way left. I moved 3 and 2 shot 2nd arrow and couldn't quite get the ball to the exit point and missed left (hooked too soon). I moved 3 and 2 again threw across 12 out to 8 and the ball finally hit the pocket. I have never used that ball to throw inside of 10 before especially on fresh oil. Everyone that hooked the ball was missing way left. There was also no room for error, miss left it went left, miss right and it wouldn't come back and split. I didn't believe the ball had enough "back end" on it to be playing that far left and it gave me light hits on the pocket. The next game I picked up my storm timeless. I stood in the same spot and played the same angle. The ball wouldn't hit the pocket and missed right. It looked like it slid further passed the exit point and didn't try to come back until late.

How can a lot stronger ball do that? Both balls hit the exit point 8 board at 38 feet or so and the timeless looked like it strugged and went kept sliding and didn't turn as much as a low end low flare ball?

I ended up moving back right 3 and 2. Throwing across 10 out to 8 or so and I was better off. The timeless didn't start hooking early like the match did.

To give you an idea, people with 150 averages bowled 2 games and the highest they got was 105 for either of them. There was just too strong of backend and you had to get the ball to the 7-8 or it would jump like crazy. If you were inside of that, it wouldn't come back all the way to the pocket.

I am just thrown off by how the match could out hook the timeless. There wasn't anything burnt up out there.

Also, I don't want to make a separate post so see if I have this correct.

If you throw the ball and hit both your target and your exit point and the ball doesn't make it all the way to the pocket, then you need to decrease your launch angle and move back right. (I did that and it worked). Or get a ball with more backend? Or slower speed.

If you can't get your ball to the correct exit point and it is going left, then you need to move left into more oil.

Right now my focus is getting the ball to the proper board on the exit point. I am somehow more concerned with launch angle then I am with moving my feet.

My steps are #1 create what I think is the proper launch angle which includes picking out a starting mark at the arrows. #2 Look at the pins, then the exit point then the mark at the arrows, keep focus at the arrows until ball hits it to see if I hit the spot. Then watch the ball to see if it gets to the exit point and see if it hooks early etc. This launch angle thing has completely changed how I play now.


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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:40 am Post Number: #2 Post
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Have you ever heard the expression "Paralysis by over-analysis"? You tend to over-think everything! The first article that I ever wrote for BTM, way back in 2007, was about the dangers of pre-conceptions in bowling. It is still the single most destructive thing for bowlers. What happened last year doesn't matter. What happened last week doesn't matter. What happened yesterday doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what the lanes are telling you, and how well you listen. Stop trying to figure out why, and just do it. No-one ever knocked down any pins with a launch angle!


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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:01 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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krava wrote:

How can a lot stronger ball do that? Both balls hit the exit point 8 board at 38 feet or so and the timeless looked like it strugged and went kept sliding and didn't turn as much as a low end low flare ball? .............................

I am just thrown off by how the match could out hook the timeless. There wasn't anything burnt up out there.


Why do think the timeless is a stronger ball?

How do you define stronger? Is it how much the ball moves right to left? Or how early or late it moves?

A quick comparison using btms chart shows the Match has more total hook than the timeless.

The timeless a hybrid with a polished oob has more length than the match which is a solid and a duller oob.

Which going by that would mean the timeless probably would go longer on the oil.

Also just because a ball is considered low end, doesn't mean it has low end performance.

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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:26 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
Have you ever heard the expression "Paralysis by over-analysis"? You tend to over-think everything! The first article that I ever wrote for BTM, way back in 2007, was about the dangers of pre-conceptions in bowling. It is still the single most destructive thing for bowlers. What happened last year doesn't matter. What happened last week doesn't matter. What happened yesterday doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is what the lanes are telling you, and how well you listen. Stop trying to figure out why, and just do it. No-one ever knocked down any pins with a launch angle!


A Marx brothers quip comes to mind, "Who are you going to believe, me, or your eyes".
Preconceptions are like Battle Plans, they often fail to last beyond the echo of the first barrage. (Old military adage).

If you find yourself lost, scout the other bowler's. Leave your ego at the door, enjoy yourself!

The Major had preconceived notions and expectations
Warning, salty language.



bowl1820, cited BTM charts, certainly a good asset as is the magazine.

krava, with your burning curiosity, I very strongly recommend subscribing to BTM.

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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:40 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Why do think the timeless is a stronger ball? Timeless is a stronger ball because it is made for heavier oil. The stronger the ball the more oil it can deal with and still have some kind of reaction and not just slide all the way.

How do you define stronger? Is it how much the ball moves right to left? Or how early or late it moves?
Can't define stronger by that (boards etc) because a weak ball can be stronger then a stronger ball depending on the lane condition. A heavy oil ball on a dry lane will burn up and be very weak etc.

A quick comparison using btms chart shows the Match has more total hook than the timeless. Where is that chart at?? I will have to look that up. The timeless is extremely expensive and the match is cheap I don't get how it has more total hook. But remember the match is drilled with low flare not to have much of a backend.

The timeless a hybrid with a polished oob has more length than the match which is a solid and a duller oob.

Which going by that would mean the timeless probably would go longer on the oil.

Also just because a ball is considered low end, doesn't mean it has low end performance. I start with my low end ball at first and then I work my way up.. I also shot the highest series or several series (when you only count using 1 main ball the entire time) with that match. I consider a low end ball as a ball that is suppose to be used in lighter oil and can be pretty dangerous there just as much as a heavy oil high end ball can be in more oil. I was thinking the weight block or something should have made that ball hook more. A low end ball has a less complicated weight block or a block that isn't designed to flip or whatever it is that makes the balls have more backend. aka pancake core etc.


My misconception was I thought that if I got 2 balls (1 weak backend and 1 stronger backend, the stronger backend would hook more once it got to the exit point right off the oil. The timeless didn't burn up because there was oil so it should have stored its energy.


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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:53 am Post Number: #6 Post
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It's all about marketing. Ball companies love the concept of "weak" balls vs. "strong" balls. They also love the fact that bowlers judge the relative amount of aggression of bowling balls by the price they charge for them. The Timeless is an expensive ball for one reason and one reason only: Belmonte's name is associated with it. There are only three elements that determine how a bowling ball reacts to the lane: the cover material, the surface, and the core. The layout is nothing more than how the core is positioned within the ball. The Timeless is nothing more than a HyRoad with a slightly more aggressive core. Both balls utilize the same R2S hybrid cover material and are finished with the same 1500 + polish finish. Both cores have a low RG of 2.57 (pretty high). Both cores are similarly shaped. The only difference is that the Timeless has a Diff. of 0.050, while the HyRoad has a diff. of 0.046. This difference is only really significant if you have a very high rev rate which you don't.

Once you rid yourself of your preconceptions about what to expect from your bowling balls, you will be able to do the one thing that you need to do to improve your game: listen to what the lanes are saying to you and do what they are telling you to do. Not listening to the lanes is like not listening to your wife, it will only get you into trouble!


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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:43 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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krava wrote:
My misconception was I thought that if I got 2 balls (1 weak backend and 1 stronger backend, the stronger backend would hook more once it got to the exit point right off the oil. The timeless didn't burn up because there was oil so it should have stored its energy.

A ball needs to slow down to hook. Throwing a Shiny ball through the oil is not going to slow down so the breakpoint will be pushed even further down the lane.

krava wrote:
But remember the match is drilled with low flare not to have much of a backend.

That is another misconception. Low flare layouts provide length in the skid and will rev up further down the lane and give plenty of backend, they don't burn up early. Quite often they need dull surfaces so it will get into a roll soon enough when there isn't enough lane friction.

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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:08 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Mo's definition of "strong" is transitions quickly, skid to hook to roll. Throw a "strong" ball on the wrong conditions, like burnt lanes, and it'll hit like a marshmallow. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:08 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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Some interesting videos on this post
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=12491&p=96788&hilit=Storm#p96788

A lot of information available on the wiki including references to other resources.

Ah yes, "marketing" choose a toothpaste or breakfast cereal.
Even the English muffin folks are into the act.

The science and theory is nice, but I'm afraid that too many bowler's are fooling themselves and have the cart before the horse. First develop a solid physical game, a game that can be repeated. Become aware of strengths and weaknesses. Practice fundamentals (that's what Norm Duke says he practices) learn all you can about the physical game and environment.
As Harry said, "a man's got to know his limitations". They don't make Smart Bowling Balls yet. I will admit, I bought my share of bowling balls, gave away, donated quite a few.
Being a bit of a dim bulb, it took a while (ego too) to say to myself, "hey boy", until you can repeat shots no more bowling balls. A butcher does not use exacto knives and scalpels.

We all need to be honest with ourselves. Bowling can be insidious because deludes people when there is no disclosure. Recreational and fun bowling is great and that's the niche most folks will fit into, that's fine. Competitive bowling is great, and like other sports there are levels, find yours if you choose and move up if and when you can.

The Ray Wong video has a chart used in the PL-31 discussion. One column lists a theoretical margin of error that descends as the pattern lengthens.

Ray's presentation is one example of information that should be available at centers and pro shops, teaching clinics, pre season meetings.
How many centers have meeting rooms that are very seldom used.
Offer classes there, augment with the quality free material out there, create a job or two in the process, maybe increase lineage, stimulate sales based on actual needs.








Cheerio.

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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:11 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Mo's definition of "strong" is transitions quickly, skid to hook to roll. Throw a "strong" ball on the wrong conditions, like burnt lanes, and it'll hit like a marshmallow. -- JohnP


Plain and simple truth.
See three phases of ball motion.
Get the ball to the pocket as close to optimum state as possible . Practice with PAP marker, POST every shot, EVERY shot. Always know where traveled and where it fell into the pit.

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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:12 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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krava wrote:
Why do think the timeless is a stronger ball?

Timeless is a stronger ball because it is made for heavier oil. The stronger the ball the more oil it can deal with and still have some kind of reaction and not just slide all the way.


Okay, So the company said it was a stronger ball.

Quote:
How do you define stronger? Is it how much the ball moves right to left? Or how early or late it moves?
Can't define stronger by that (boards etc) because a weak ball can be stronger then a stronger ball depending on the lane condition. A heavy oil ball on a dry lane will burn up and be very weak etc.

Okay, I agree with that but that doesn't answer the question of How do "YOU" define stronger.

Quote:
A quick comparison using btms chart shows the Match has more total hook than the timeless.
Where is that chart at?? I will have to look that up.

Bowling This Month magazine is located here:
https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/

I used their ball comparison here, Just enter the balls you wish to compare:
https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/ball-comparison/

Example:
https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/ball-comparison/storm-match-vs-storm-timeless/

Quote:
The timeless is extremely expensive and the match is cheap I don't get how it has more total hook.


A ball being expensive doesn't necessarily mean it's a "strong" ball, Just as a ball being cheap doesn't necessarily mean it's "weak".

Looking at some reviews of the Match, here's some comments:

"It’s hard to imagine these balls would do what they do but the Storm Match and Match Pearl roll so strong they almost seem like they are strong asymmetrical balls! That would offer unbelievable value in entry level pricing…"

"The Match is strong enough to handle some heavier oil patterns, but reads the lane too quickly to be used on light oil conditions."

"Out of the box, it's strong enough to use on medium-heavy conditions"

Reading those does the Match sound weak or strong?

Quote:
But remember the match is drilled with low flare not to have much of a backend.


Eric covered this well above.

Quote:
The timeless a hybrid with a polished oob has more length than the match which is a solid and a duller oob. Which going by that would mean the timeless probably would go longer on the oil.

I start with my low end ball at first and then I work my way up..


Interesting you start with what you consider your "weakest" balls (the low end balls) and then move to your "stronger" balls. Why? What's your reasoning?

Quote:
I also shot the highest series or several series (when you only count using 1 main ball the entire time) with that match.


So do you typically shoot better using the "weak" Match vs your "stronger" balls?

Quote:
I consider a low end ball as a ball that is suppose to be used in lighter oil and can be pretty dangerous there just as much as a heavy oil high end ball can be in more oil.


Just because a ball is low end doesn't necessarily mean it just has a simple weightblock/core or that it's always a lighter oil ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:35 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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It's a matter of paralysis by over analysis here. The best thing to do is to not buy so many bowling balls unless you are a tournament bowler or sponsored by a company that bowling balls are expendable for you. I'm taking this year off from league and tournaments almost entirely. The only bowling I'll be doing if any is floating as a sub and practice when I can fit it in. My reasons are personal and I'm leaving it at that.

When I do commit back to bowling competitively again, I'll be simplifying my arsenal. I'll have a urethane ball, a hybrid middle of the road, and a strong asymmetric solid. For me that is more than enough even though I know I need more and should have more. But my reasoning is that I am working on softening up my hand significantly and focusing more on creating a Pete Weber type release. While I may not be able to replicate it the open hand release will for the most part give me more than enough versatility to play any line and angle.

A guy like Jesper Svenssen is a pro who is a rev monster on the left side and uses urethane exclusively, but I'm not going to argue with his success. The important thing is to have a bench mark ball. So an IQ tour would be a great start. Go with a bench mark drilling. After that you can give yourself options on either end of the spectrum. Play what the lanes give you and that is your line for the night.

There have been nights where I thought my strongest balls would work the best, but they ended up not being what I needed. So I went to my trusted bench mark ball, adjusted speed and angle as necessary and was able to salvage what would have been a sub 500 set into a low 600 set. Watch your reaction from front to back. A lot of amateurs watch side to side because modern bowling balls are meant to hook with little done to them. By watching your reaction from front to back you can see if the ball is reading early, late, breaking properly or too sharp.

I may have posted quite a bit in this response, but my advice is to play what the lanes give you, and simply just bowl. Don't think too much and have fun. You will see your scores rise and most importantly enjoy bowling again.


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 Post subject: Re: Tryng to find a line etc
 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:56 am Post Number: #13 Post
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There is a lot to read in this one and I will go back several times and do just that. I will try to answer some of the questions.

Bowl 1820
"Interesting you start with what you consider your "weakest" balls (the low end balls) and then move to your "stronger" balls. Why? What's your reasoning? " Same reasoning as in nationals, I want to stay as far right as possible and move left. It isn't possible for me to start with my strongest ball because there isn't enough oil out there. The only time I can use the scandal is in nationals ore when I put that pattern down here. I did consider my match as my weakest ball but from what I hear it isn't. My joyride is a bit weaker. I now need to buy a weaker soild ball. I do have a fanatic BTU which is for dry but fried lanes.. I was thinking tropical heat but that is a pearl. I have to look stuff up.

"So do you typically shoot better using the "weak" Match vs your "stronger" balls?" I shoot best with whatever ball I can use to play between 8-10. My highest series is 802. I started with the timeless on board 10 and shot 300. 2nd game I didn't move much ended up with 224 and wasn't too consistent and tthen I moved 3 and 2 and threw the bad intentions hybrid over 12 and out a bit and ended up with 279 having a solid 10 in some frame like 7th or 8th. I don't think I ever shot over 700 with the timeless because I didn't know anything about launch angle. If I stay straight launch angle isn't too much of a deal, but if you throw it sort of diagonal then launch angle is a huge deal. The more left you play the more angle you play.

Rob said: The Timeless is nothing more than a HyRoad with a slightly more aggressive core I can tell. The timeless, rocket ship, hyroad etc seem to be the same for me. The rocketship hooks a bit earlier, the timeless goes a bit longer. I just need 1 of the 3 in my bag, it really doesn't matter which one it is.

"Once you rid yourself of your preconceptions about what to expect from your bowling balls, you will be able to do the one thing that you need to do to improve your game" I kind of did sort of did that by taking the match and even attempting to play inside of 10.


From SonnyP: thanks for the response there. I have now be doing what you said. I take what the lanes give me. I was trying to find multiple lines but I only found 1 line that was already pretty far left just to start..

Kajmk. You said a lot I have to go back and read all that. I tried to respond to what I could. I need another practice session bad.


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