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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:00 am Post Number: #21 Post
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If you have ever been defeated by a two hander, you probably will complain, if you beat two handers ona regular basis not so much... a good bowler can play any part of the lane, I don't hear Marshall Kent or EJ complaining. If a two hander is burning up the lane and you don't want/can't play deeper, roll a back up ball, learn to play lefty (oh wait, let's ban lefties too)... I guess Jesper Svensson is the anti-christ... Two handers are here to stay and if you don't like it either learn how to beat them or retire, there's always golf...

...Edited as requested by well respected senior member...

Bowling has many different styles and banning them is not the answer, our sport NEEDS more participation and if two handed bowling helps get more people into bowling then I say it's a pretty darn positive thing.

Oh and about longevity, many people said Amleto Monacelli would not last... LOOK AT HIM NOW! Of course he, he takes great care of himself and if you ask me, that is the image of an athlete I want promoting our sport, not some grumpy, fat, beer drinking dude who's always complaining about lane conditions, two handers, lefties or what not...

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Last edited by TonyPR on Tue Aug 29, 2017 11:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:29 am Post Number: #22 Post
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Lets make sure we keep this about bowling and not start slipping the political, race, religous etc. analogies talk in, those topics are not what the thread is about and that stuff just ruins a thread when it starts.

In fact it would be nice if TonyPR would please remove it from his post.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 2:18 pm Post Number: #23 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
Unfortunately, while the two handed league players are focussing on the power, everyone else have to focus on adjusting as the two handers are ripping up the lanes and making them, for all intents and purposes, unplayable for everyone else.


I agree with you.

I have tried to play in with power players on sport and it doesnt work out well for me. I usually tank in there. I did last night during a practice league. 1:1 40ft, got in the last game to make it a learning experience and shot 130 with no room. Total disaster inside 18.

Even when I get the ball to the pocket I cant carry well from the deep inside angles they play and usually they're stinking up the joint doing what they do.
I have to play so far right to get away from their destruction it makes the task of scoring so difficult.

I consider most local power players jerks on sport because they usually have 1 move, further left.
Regardless of pattern NEVER EVER right of 10. They get the vapors right of 15.
Is it their own ignorance? Maybe. Is it their own ego and stubbornness? Probably.

I have immense respect for Norm Duke and what he does on the lanes.
I often watched Walter Ray and could never figure him out, how he makes it work, but Duke just does the "outside and around" better than anyone I've seen. He does it with speed control better than anyone. I wont be smashing on the ball because thats not my game, so Im going to need to learn how to get around the disaster in the middle of the lane from the right. I watch him and I've picked up on a few things that have helped, I just need to be more patient and apply it better.

Then comes topography problems from the right. Many times outside of 8 is downhill and to the right. Now its even harder, if not impossible! Caters to the inside players, playing in the topography bowl in the middle. They grab a weak ball and throw it 18MPH on the monitor. Bowling is easy they said, throw it at the headpin they said.

Bowling is the only sport where participants dictate the scoring environment.
Growing up playing non-environmental games like basketball and football, it really bothers me that its not always "best man wins". At the sport's inception, today's game likely is not what was intended. Its a shame, I see why bowling is dying a not-so-slow death. Its because of all of us. Our selfishness and lack of respect for playing the game the right way. All of us play it how we want to play it. Ego.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:09 pm Post Number: #24 Post
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So the reason why you don't win is because other people don't break down the lane so it is easier for you relative to the scorinc pace of themself? And how is basketball and football scoring not relative to the defense you play against?

Norm Duke which you so solely admire once said that everytime he throws a bowling ball he thinks about 4 things on which strategy to apply which went somewhere along the lines of
Is this ball going to make my next shot easier
Is this ball going to make my next shot harder
Is this ball going to make my opponents next shot easier
Is this ball going to make my opponents next shot harder

He wanted to accomplish his next shot easier and his opponents harder. You're the competition, everyone else is not there to make you feel better


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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:34 pm Post Number: #25 Post
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gunso wrote:
So the reason why you don't win is because other people don't break down the lane so it is easier for you relative to the scorinc pace of themself? And how is basketball and football scoring not relative to the defense you play against?

Norm Duke which you so solely admire once said that everytime he throws a bowling ball he thinks about 4 things on which strategy to apply which went somewhere along the lines of
Is this ball going to make my next shot easier
Is this ball going to make my next shot harder
Is this ball going to make my opponents next shot easier
Is this ball going to make my opponents next shot harder

He wanted to accomplish his next shot easier and his opponents harder. You're the competition, everyone else is not there to make you feel better


Why do you have such an attitude when you respond to my posts? You're real snarky.

I didnt say anything about anyone doing anything for me in my post, you cooked that up yourself.
I dont "solely admire" Norm Duke. I admire anyone that can bowl on sport conditions and bowl well enough to make money, even do it for a living successfully.

Show me where Norm Duke said that.
I'd find it highly unlikely he concerns himself with his opponent.

Its no secret most professionals do not enjoy "open format" events like The Masters and the US Open.
Its for the reasons I've described above.
Those that have no chance of making the cut affect the scoring environment (often very negatively) for others.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:50 pm Post Number: #26 Post
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"When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Bill's objective was winning.

This is a very good topic, many good points and opinions.

So much trouble in the world, we don't need any here too.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:57 pm Post Number: #27 Post
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I enjoy what is taking place with bowling. I believe the evolution that its going thru is beautiful. Our bowlers, more than ever are better athletes, and can do things to a bowling ball that only thought a handful of guys can do back in the 70's 80's and 90's.

Football players have gotten stronger and faster, Baseball players are now throwing it harder and hitting it further than before. Its about time Bowling has done the same. I am not sure how many were out at Jr. Gold, but I would say 70% of the 15U were 2 handed. That is amazing! Don't get me wrong, there is still room for the .320 hitters that slap base hits all over the ball park, but they will be few and far between.

We will soon see who will want to stick around, and who will give up, which might not be a bad thing. Some times for something to grow, the old must die. It will be interesting to see how ball manufacturers and lane maintenance professionals adjust to this evolution.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:12 pm Post Number: #28 Post
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MeNoRevs wrote:
I enjoy what is taking place with bowling. I believe the evolution that its going thru is beautiful. Our bowlers, more than ever are better athletes, and can do things to a bowling ball that only thought a handful of guys can do back in the 70's 80's and 90's.

Football players have gotten stronger and faster, Baseball players are now throwing it harder and hitting it further than before. Its about time Bowling has done the same. I am not sure how many were out at Jr. Gold, but I would say 70% of the 15U were 2 handed. That is amazing! Don't get me wrong, there is still room for the .320 hitters that slap base hits all over the ball park, but they will be few and far between.

We will soon see who will want to stick around, and who will give up, which might not be a bad thing. Some times for something to grow, the old must die. It will be interesting to see how ball manufacturers and lane maintenance professionals adjust to this evolution.


7 in 10? Around here its around 1 in 10.
I think when you say "our bowlers" you mean professional bowlers.
Have you looked around bowling centers at the average Joe bowler? His body type hasnt changed in 30+ years.
You have a rather morbid view of the game. I cant say I agree with you.
My personal opinion is, the game has too much conditioner involved now and I think a lot of it is due to "Belmonte proofing" patterns along with the equipment being used similar to how the PGA and USGA "Tiger proofed" courses.

When are we going to stop adding more oil? 50ml patterns? Until the ball are too much? When the pit needs to be cleaned up with a mop?

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:58 pm Post Number: #29 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

7 in 10? Around here its around 1 in 10.
I think when you say "our bowlers" you mean professional bowlers.
Have you looked around bowling centers at the average Joe bowler? His body type hasnt changed in 30+ years.
You have a rather morbid view of the game. I cant say I agree with you.
My personal opinion is, the game has too much conditioner involved now and I think a lot of it is due to "Belmonte proofing" patterns along with the equipment being used similar to how the PGA and USGA "Tiger proofed" courses.

When are we going to stop adding more oil? 50ml patterns? Until the ball are too much? When the pit needs to be cleaned up with a mop?


In Cleveland at Jr. Gold, yes, for the 15 and Under, it was a good 7 out of 10. It will only grow I believe.

When I do talk about bowlers, I do tend to think of the sports side of it, so you can say I am not talking about your once a week joe bowler. I think your higher avg bowlers, weekend warriors, regional players are in better shape and understanding than ever before.

I dont think my view is morbid at all, I think its quite the opposite. I am excited about bowling, the same excitement I had when I put my first drill bit into the ball, or saw my first professional tournament live in Baltimore. Watching 2 handers throw the ball with the ability of someone like Jason, Osku, Jesper, I get that feeling like I did when I saw Robert Smith first throw the ball. It was like watching McGuire and Sosa hitting bombs after the strike season. So if anything, my view is opposite.

Interesting that you bring up "when are we going to stop adding more oil". We can also say, when are we going to stop making balls with absorption rates that can soak the light from the sun, Ra and Rs that feels like suction cups on the lane. Classic Ying and Yang scenario. Me personally, I would love to see a limit on oil absorption rate, a limit on Rs and Ra to even less than 50 μin. I would love to see them set the differential to less than .060. I would love to see them get rid of the static weight rules and implement a limit on weight holes. Then the lane man can stop having to use conditioner by the gallons (sorry kegal).

I do not think the problem is that the opposite hand is on on the ball at the apex of the swing. I see it getting more kids involved with bowling. I think that is a positive thing.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:27 pm Post Number: #30 Post
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MeNoRevs wrote:
Interesting that you bring up "when are we going to stop adding more oil". We can also say, when are we going to stop making balls with absorption rates that can soak the light from the sun, Ra and Rs that feels like suction cups on the lane. Classic Ying and Yang scenario. Me personally, I would love to see a limit on oil absorption rate, a limit on Rs and Ra to even less than 50 μin. I would love to see them set the differential to less than .060. I would love to see them get rid of the static weight rules and implement a limit on weight holes. Then the lane man can stop having to use conditioner by the gallons (sorry kegal).


Yes.
We need some leveling off.
Lets not forget the wear these covers have on lane surface.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:36 pm Post Number: #31 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Why do you have such an attitude when you respond to my posts? You're real snarky.

I didnt say anything about anyone doing anything for me in my post, you cooked that up yourself.
I dont "solely admire" Norm Duke. I admire anyone that can bowl on sport conditions and bowl well enough to make money, even do it for a living successfully.

Show me where Norm Duke said that.
I'd find it highly unlikely he concerns himself with his opponent.

Its no secret most professionals do not enjoy "open format" events like The Masters and the US Open.
Its for the reasons I've described above.
Those that have no chance of making the cut affect the scoring environment (often very negatively) for others.


solely admire was the language barrier speaking. looked it up in the dictionary and can see that was english not being my first language getting in the way. only meant someone you admire much.

sorry if you feel i'm snarky, it's not supposed to come out that way. we just often differ in opinion on how to play the lanes in competition. that might be because we come from vastly different bowling areas.

I can't find the video of duke quickly but I will message you it when i find it. in the video he is talking about what he thought of as a great strategic match in match play between him and someone else, can't remember who but might have been machuga.

and as for the comment on my two handed play which disappeared then my A game is up the gutter and have needed to work real hard on being able to move inside when the transition calls for it.

40ft flat usually calls for a way inside line quickly as evidenced by the many us opens for PDW.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:37 pm Post Number: #32 Post
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MegaMav wrote:


Show me where Norm Duke said that.
I'd find it highly unlikely he concerns himself with his opponent


Eric,

I doubt I can screenshot it for you for copyright reasons, but Norm Duke does in fact discuss that in the foreword to Susie Minshew's "Whoever Finds it First Wins". He gives an example of a match against Mike Machuga to describe his thought process. Worth noting: he's talking about match play, which is obviously quite a bit different than concerning himself with an entire field of bowlers.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:49 pm Post Number: #33 Post
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Bahshay wrote:
I doubt I can screenshot it for you for copyright reasons, but Norm Duke does in fact discuss that in the foreword to Susie Minshew's "Whoever Finds it First Wins". He gives an example of a match against Mike Machuga to describe his thought process. Worth noting: he's talking about match play, which is obviously quite a bit different than concerning himself with an entire field of bowlers.


Go here and click on "Open Preview" and you can read the entire forward by Duke:
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/25318618-whoever-finds-it-first-wins

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 8:58 pm Post Number: #34 Post
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I see it now on an Amazon preview pane.
I was wrong.

A lot more goes on in his head than I thought.
A lot of professionals tout to "play the lane not your opponent", so this mind game surprises me.
Usually all I hear him say is "make a good shot". Not much else.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:59 am Post Number: #35 Post
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Anecdote regarding language translating software.
This one is quite old. I bring this up because we are an international community.

There was a demonstration wherein words and phrases were fed into a computer in English for translation to Mandarin.
Things went rather well until they tried some idiomatic expressions.

English Input - Out of sight, out of mind.
Mandarin Output - Invisible idiot.

Oops!

Too bad Bill Taylor's idea of oilless lanes never came to fruition.

I remember vividly Brian Voss down on one knee "pounding" a fist on the approach after throwing his final shot, exclaiming "ban sanded balls". He was referencing to the gambits used to tailor the lanes during practice by sucking up oil.

Sometimes it's like Spy vs Spy.



Strange days indeed mama!



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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:10 am Post Number: #36 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
I see it now on an Amazon preview pane.
I was wrong.

A lot more goes on in his head than I thought.
A lot of professionals tout to "play the lane not your opponent", so this mind game surprises me.
Usually all I hear him say is "make a good shot". Not much else.


Duke also talks about how Barnes would plan his remaining shots for the rest of the game after each shot he bowled using the information at hand, like a chess master playing out the rest of the game in their head after each move to see who would win. In Voss' book Bare Bones Bowling, the targeting adjustments he talks about are insanely precise. These guys are that good!

Re your earlier 2-handed post, I watched Belmo at our Melbourne Cup here earlier this year and his strategy was interesting. Sanded urethane up the boards on the fresh, and then when he started to lose carry, he jumped in deep starting at 4th arrow with a strong reactive asymm ball and then kept moving left. No gradual moves or adjustments here. Like you described, the tweeners (~400 rpm) in this environemnt are in for a tough time. The urethane ball wreaks havoc initially between 2nd and 3rd arrow, but as soon as you get into 4th arrow you hit Belmos burn. Outside 2nd arrow was tough leaving a shot between 3rd and 4th arrow that just won't hold up over 12 games of qualifying or during match play. Now I know not everyone is following Belmo, but at some point the majority of bowlers will hit a pair Belmo or others that were doing a similar thing had been on. So if you can't get in deep with the high rev players and get the ball to corner and carry, you are left facing an oil pattern that isn't going to be very friendly.

What I see Duke and others (like Dom Barrett and Francois Lavoie for example) do well is 'trick' the ball into the pocket, bowling straighter with less hand, and getting the ball to roll at just the right time. It took Duke probably about 20 years to learn to do this, so it's not easy!

2-handers and high rev tournament bowlers who know what they are doing are trying to give themselves an advantge so they can win. Why not? But just because there is a new generation of 2-handed bowlers coming through, it doesn't mean we will see another Belmo among them.

In cricket, Australian Shane Warne was the greatest leg spinner of all time, and every kid in this country who wanted to be a spin bowler tried to become a 'leggie' like their hero Warnie. In the 20 years since he was at his peak, there are zero leg spin bowlers in this country with the talent and ability Warne had, and although there are some good spin bowlers, cricket may never see the likes of him again.

This is how I see 2-handed bowling, it's easy to do and actually helps younger bowlers throw heavier balls with some speed and revs, but it doesn't mean they will all become world class. Unfortunately though they will be tearing up oil patterns in leagues and tournaments for many years to come...

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 3:38 am Post Number: #37 Post
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deanchamp wrote:
It took Duke probably about 20 years to learn to do this, so it's not easy!


It is not easy.
From what I've seen him do and from my experience on patterns I think what he does is modify his speed on the ball to get it to read within the front to back slope of the pattern.

Its extremely difficult to do this because it can really screw up your timing shortening or lengthening the arc distance of your swing to achieve the result. Even using foot speed variance will make you early or late. My sport league teammate Craig can do it and its a spectacle to watch because hes so precise and gets the ball to hook in oil on the backend with a weak shell to get thru the burn in the front.

Its something I've been working on, in terms of feeling the ball to the pocket and getting the pace of the ball correct to read on the pattern slope. Next level tough stuff.

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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:12 am Post Number: #38 Post
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Quote:
Dean Champ wrote
What I see Duke and others (like Dom Barrett and Francois Lavoie for example) do well is 'trick' the ball into the pocket, bowling straighter with less hand, and getting the ball to roll at just the right time. It took Duke probably about 20 years to learn to do this, so it's not easy!


Analogous to a Greg Maddox in baseball, long career, hall of fame, did not blow batters away with stuff, used control and a variety of pitches.

There is so much more to this sport than meets the eye, it's a shame it does not get it's due.

Perhaps the advent of two handed bowlers will bring about an evolution in lane oil.
It's not quite the same, but the advent of the soccer style kicker in American style football was one reason why they moved the goal post to the end line and moved the kickoff back.
Sometimes skills mandate changes to the games environment.
Years ago, major league baseball lowered the pitchers mound because the power pitchers were blowing batters away. MLB also did some things with the ball itself to make scoring easier. Not all was new though, my father told me of some ways they treated baseball's to kill or juice them.
I've always believed the emphasis should be on the athlete. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Belmo and others have spearheaded a movement. As Dean and others have said, it's one thing to bowl two handed and another to do it well.

Bob Dylan wrote "The times they are a changing"


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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:42 pm Post Number: #39 Post
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I remember witnessing this watching Duke at the US Open several years ago in North Jersey. It was the evening block on the burn, and of course, many of the power players were lofting the left gutter cap and playing the 7th arrow, with the ball hitting the lane past the arrows. Duke was playing a small arc between 15 and 20 and was just living in the pocket. No, he wasn't stringing 5 and 6 baggers, but he wasn't missing the pocket and when he didn't strike, he had an easy spare to shoot.

Sometimes I wonder if in the long run it's more of an advantage to have a soft hand than ripping the cover off the ball. I'm currently working on this as I'm finding that our new condition burns up very quickly, and if I have any grab whatsoever, my ball reads too early and is DOA. Last night I practiced on a pretty burned up lane, and tried having my equipment at 5,000 with polish. Even with that, if I grabbed it, it still hooked way too early. When I didn't, I got way more length, and best of all, lights hits were carrying.

Several years ago my house had an Ebonite Demo Day, and one of the Ebonite reps was watching me bowl and said to me "you have a nice soft hand; don't mess with it." Looks like I messed with it. :( At least I'm on my way back now.


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 Post subject: Re: 2 Handed bowling: Is it the Ultimate Advantage?
 Posted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:34 am Post Number: #40 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
My sport league teammate Craig can do it and its a spectacle to watch because he's so precise and gets the ball to hook in oil on the backend with a weak shell to get thru the burn in the front.


There are some wily senior bowlers in Melbourne I compete against who can do this very well too. They 'float' the ball out to the breakpoint and get it to roll up and still hit, but if I bowled in the same part of the lane the ball would either hook at my toes or be DOA at the pins. It's impressive to watch and hard to fathom, and their advantage is they don't really care who else has bowled where.

And to tie this to the OP, maybe the ultimate advantge is being able to score when others can't, no matter what your style.

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