Board index » General Forums » General Bowling




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:50 pm Post Number: #1 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: February 15, 2016
Posts: 490
Reputation: 78
Reputation Power: 1
Thank you to those of you who participated in my Article Research thread. You may be surprised to know that there are "right" answers. It is not just a matter of opinion. Not surprisingly, J Merrill had all of the right answers.

To continue, I would like to address one of the two themes addressed in the research questions: lane differences. Lane differences do exist, and if you start bowling on a "pair" of lanes that have been freshly oiled assuming that the two lanes will play the same, you will be wrong over 90% of the time. Conversely, if you expect the lanes to play differently, you will be right over 90% of the time. As both lanes were oiled the same, the differences are obviously not because of the oil. As you have just started, they are also not because of other bowlers. The differences are because of topography. The term is bandied about by bowlers all the time, but few really understand what topography is.

For a really great overview of topography, go to the following link: http://www.kegel.net/topography-study/. To see topographic differences in lanes up close and personal, just look at the reflection on a freshly oiled synthetic lane. If the surface of the lane was perfectly flat, the reflection would be perfect, but it never is. There are peaks and valleys, and areas of the lane that are slightly tilted and those things affect how you ball rolls on the individual lane.

Because of the differences in topography, the differences between lanes are much more than just, "the left lane hooks more, and the right lane's tighter." The differences often define the miss room: the area that you can miss and still get back to the pocket. It is often the case that one lane forgives misses to the outside and the other lane forgives misses inside. Once you learn to look for this, you can use it to your advantage.

Sometimes the differences between the two lanes that make up a "pair" are too subtle to see just from your own shots. This is where the scoreboard can be your best friend. If you see one or more bowlers who are striking on one lane and sparing on the other, you can be 100% sure that the two lanes are not playing the same.

Does this all make sense to you?


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:57 am Post Number: #2 Post
Offline
Member
User avatar

Joined: February 28, 2011
Posts: 498
Location: Houston, TX
Reputation: 88
Reputation Power: 1
I understand what you are getting at. But let me play devil's advocate:

I understand topography is an important aspect of how a lane can be played. Topography is the "in" word now and you can't go to a tournament without someone discussing or cussing topography.

But I contend the 90% concept you described is way too high as it pertains to topography. How can so much emphasis be placed on something no one knows about without extensive research on the lane(s) in question? My center has not conducted any research on the topography of every lane. However, I can play a pair the same more than 10% of the time on a THS (which is what is bowled on most often by a long shot).

Now, if we are talking about using Throwbot and throwing the ball exactly the same on two different lanes and analyzing the results, then I am on board with 90% (even without data). But human bowlers are not consistent enough to discern the difference sufficiently enough to take advantage of the information.

If you are saying topography plays a role in the 90% which includes other variables, then maybe.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:43 am Post Number: #3 Post
Offline
Trusted Source
User avatar

Joined: August 1, 2010
Posts: 1321
Location: Florence, Ky
Reputation: 1054
Reputation Power: 10
RobMautner wrote:
Thank you to those of you who participated in my Article Research thread. You may be surprised to know that there are "right" answers. It is not just a matter of opinion. Not surprisingly, J Merrell had all of the right answers.


How about one for the old coach. :lol:

spmcgivern...about the topography issue.

The think sometimes as Americans we forget that we are a tiny percentage of the world's bowler's.

Perhaps, some of the international members on BChat could comment.

The people I have communications with internationally say that the topography is typically available at tournaments in the world arena.

Actually, there has been a lot of research on topography, just not much dissemination of findings.

I was just at the Kegel Training Center for 3 days.

There were 4 sets of lanes with the topography different on each pair.

One pair flat, one pair seagull, one crowned and one depressed.

Same lane pattern on all pairs.

It was amazing to watch the bowler's cross the pairs.

The difference in ball reaction was unbelievable.

It was obvious that the topography dictated the scoring pace, not the lane pattern.

I'll have to do a research, I believe there is a video of Pete Weber at the K.T.C, throwing the ball on the same pattern across different topography. He literally, misses the headpin on one pair playing the same line he previously struck on before moving pairs.

TRUE, you can play the same line on most THS pairs.

We all know how forgiving the THS is to slightly errant shots.

Knowing about the lane Topography, can dictate playing a part of the lane that the lane pattern sheet wouldn't indicate.

It was just a survey, not a test as to who was right or wrong.

Here in America, the emphasis is on keeping the league bowler happy. Happy bowler....customer retention.

The proprietor (bowler) doesn't need to worry about topography....the THS trumps topography.

_________________
-JMerrell
"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:03 am Post Number: #4 Post
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: July 9, 2012
Posts: 1073
Location: Central Florida
Reputation: 366
Reputation Power: 4
JMerrell wrote:
I'll have to do a research, I believe there is a video of Pete Weber at the K.T.C, throwing the ball on the same pattern across different topography. He literally, misses the headpin on one pair playing the same line he previously struck on before moving pairs.


Yes those videos (theres a couple) are posted in some other threads about topography.

here you.









plus this

Interesting info about topography!

This week I chat with both Jerry Petrole and Ron Hatfield.

We discuss a great new app that Jerry developed called Track My Roll. We chat about the benefits of the app, and why Ron is a big fan of the app. We also discuss lane topography, how it happens and if anything should be done regarding the pairs at South Point. Ron also shares some coaching advice and how much is too much information when coaching a player.

The Podcast:
http://media.blubrry.com/above180/p/abo ... MYROLL.mp3

1-Track My Roll App talk (00:00-11:55)

2-Topography talk (11:55-18:00)

Here's the Kegel 2017 South Point Topography report they mention.
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net ... graphy.pdf
3-More Track My Roll App talk (18:00-19:25)

4-Coaching talk (19:25-21:25)

5-Wrap up (21:25-25:29)

plus these








_________________
Click my green + rep button if this helps!
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 2:17 am Post Number: #5 Post
Offline
Trusted Source
User avatar

Joined: August 1, 2010
Posts: 1321
Location: Florence, Ky
Reputation: 1054
Reputation Power: 10
Thanks, for reposting these videos.

On another note, Kegel is under contract to create oil patterns for international competition.

Although, I don't know it to be 100% true (I can find out). I believe that when Kegel sends personnel overseas to create a tournament pattern. They also take a Lane Mapper with them and the first thing they do is check center topography, they can then decide how to modify a pattern based on the center topography to create a pattern for that center.

Most people on this site have stated that their home centers won't put out sport patterns to practice on.

Could you imagine asking that proprietor to invest in a Lane Mapper to check lane topography? :o

You would either be evicted or laughed off the planet, just the world we live in.

_________________
-JMerrell
"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:49 am Post Number: #6 Post
Offline
Certified Coach
User avatar

Joined: October 25, 2010
Posts: 2855
Location: Sun City Arizona
Reputation: 557
Reputation Power: 6
Rob, would you and perhaps other writers consider writing an article comparing bowling in America to other nations; perhaps a joint project with international writers. Is there a proliferation of the THS abroad? Some insight to psyche and attitudes of bowler's.
Do centers in other nations take an active role in bowler education?
This might make for an interesting series.
To those members and lurkers that have experience or knowledge of the bowling world both in America and other parts of the world, I for one would like to hear your comments and observations.

Cheerio.

_________________
Comparison is the thief of joy.

http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html

"Democracy dies in darkness"
"An ever vigilant press is the guardian of a free society."
E-books are convenient, but easily changed or removed.
John


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:07 pm Post Number: #7 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: May 13, 2011
Posts: 353
Reputation: 27
Reputation Power: 1
When considering this issue, what comes to my mind is, what our mental attitude should be. To explain further, the two shots PDW threw; if I had that much difference in ball reaction on two different lanes, I would most definitely think I threw it really bad. Of course, I don't have the CATS data to prove or disprove this when I'm bowling at my house.

I'm thinking that maybe our attitude should be that it's always the lane. I know Susie Minshew teaches this ("unless you miss by an arrow, MOVE"). If we think we threw a bad shot, but it's actually the lane, staying in the same place and throwing it "better" is going to be wasting shots. I also wonder if we should abandon the whole "pair" mindset.

Thoughts?


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 4:29 pm Post Number: #8 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: February 15, 2016
Posts: 490
Reputation: 78
Reputation Power: 1
pjape wrote:
I'm thinking that maybe our attitude should be that it's always the lane. I know Susie Minshew teaches this ("unless you miss by an arrow, MOVE"). If we think we threw a bad shot, but it's actually the lane, staying in the same place and throwing it "better" is going to be wasting shots. I also wonder if we should abandon the whole "pair" mindset.

Thoughts?


YES, YES, YES!!!!!

Suzie once told me that her favorite thing that I ever wrote was that the greatest misnomer in bowling is calling two lanes next to each other a "pair." Pairs of shoes match, pairs of socks match, pairs of gloves match. A pair of lanes... not so much!


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:38 am Post Number: #9 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: March 17, 2016
Posts: 742
Reputation: -7
Reputation Power: 1
Maybe you can explain the answers to some of the correct answers to the questions? I believe alot of people replied no when you asked about watching the other people's scores. So the correct answer would be something like this? If you see people playing the inside of the lane and hanging 10 pins and not getting very many strikes in a row and then you see other people throwring the ball on the outside and striking. Then that tells you that you might want to try to play the outside of the lane also?

Then the question about topography. Suppose that you know what that is and you have the info there for you. What do you do with the info though? Lets say that you see a bad part on the lane (I am not sure what constitutes a bad part), so that means that you stay away from that area of the lane at all cost? I believe there are 3 bad things that could be out there that someone said? There is a solution to how each should be played? or they should be avoided and not even try to get in that area?

Also a question about a "pair" of lanes. In league have you ever started practice and threw 1 ball where you normally do and it had "bad roll" and then went and threw it on the other lane and it rolled correctly? If you have, have you ever used 2 different balls 1 for each of the lanes, or you just adjusted with that 1 ball on whichever lane you needed to. A further question would be have you ever played a completely different line on 1 lane and then another line on another? I haven't ran accross having to do this yet but it is always possible.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 5:37 pm Post Number: #10 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: August 20, 2015
Posts: 3
Reputation: 3
Reputation Power: 1
So those of us who grew up as house mice in the 1960s always knew this, right? That's the reason we would take challengers from other alleys down to the hinkiest pair in the house. We knew every board on every lane. Isn't that all that topography is?


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:40 pm Post Number: #11 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: February 15, 2016
Posts: 490
Reputation: 78
Reputation Power: 1
krava wrote:
Maybe you can explain the answers to some of the correct answers to the questions? I believe alot of people replied no when you asked about watching the other people's scores. So the correct answer would be something like this? If you see people playing the inside of the lane and hanging 10 pins and not getting very many strikes in a row and then you see other people throwring the ball on the outside and striking. Then that tells you that you might want to try to play the outside of the lane also?

There are two reasons for watching other bowlers scores: it is the fastest way to tell if the two lanes that constitute the "pair" are different - you can easily tell if you see patterns where bowlers are striking on one lane but not on the other. It is also the easiest way to anticipate that a lane has transitioned: if multiple bowlers who have been striking on a particular lane start posting seven counts or splits, you can be pretty sure that the lane will play differently the next frame that you bowl on it.

Then the question about topography. Suppose that you know what that is and you have the info there for you. What do you do with the info though? Lets say that you see a bad part on the lane (I am not sure what constitutes a bad part), so that means that you stay away from that area of the lane at all cost? I believe there are 3 bad things that could be out there that someone said? There is a solution to how each should be played? or they should be avoided and not even try to get in that area?

Depending on what you are seeing, you have to decide which approach to take. Being that very few lanes are truly flat, it would help to view the parts of the lane as good or bad, and just look at them as being different. An example is a "hang spot" where the ball visibly straightens out as it should continue hooking toward the pins. A hang spot is no more than a hump or a depression in a particular part of the lane. In the case of a hump, once you are aware of it, you have to decide if you want to play to the right of it using a straighter line with the same ball, or to the right of it using a more aggressive ball to compensate for the fact that it is rolling up hill. Or you could decide to play to the left of the hump with a less aggressive ball to compensate for the fact that it is rolling down hill and hooking more toward the pocket.

Also a question about a "pair" of lanes. In league have you ever started practice and threw 1 ball where you normally do and it had "bad roll" and then went and threw it on the other lane and it rolled correctly? If you have, have you ever used 2 different balls 1 for each of the lanes, or you just adjusted with that 1 ball on whichever lane you needed to. A further question would be have you ever played a completely different line on 1 lane and then another line on another? I haven't ran accross having to do this yet but it is always possible.

These two questions are inter-related and the answers depend totally on the preferences of the bowler. Yes, two lanes often play very differently from each other. How to compensate depends on your own personal preference. Some bowlers are very comfortable playing two totally different lines, while others would rather play the lanes more similarly using two different bowling balls to bring the two shots together... your choice.


Last edited by RobMautner on Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:44 pm Post Number: #12 Post
Offline
Certified Coach

Joined: February 15, 2016
Posts: 490
Reputation: 78
Reputation Power: 1
marlont wrote:
So those of us who grew up as house mice in the 1960s always knew this, right? That's the reason we would take challengers from other alleys down to the hinkiest pair in the house. We knew every board on every lane. Isn't that all that topography is?


That's all topography was, but the hyper-reactivity of today's bowling balls have made it into something totally different. In the old days you might have seen the odd board that provided more or less friction. Today, the peaks and valleys, add a whole new dimension to how the lanes affect the roll of your ball.


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:36 pm Post Number: #13 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: May 13, 2011
Posts: 353
Reputation: 27
Reputation Power: 1
RobMautner wrote:

That's all topography was, but the hyper-reactivity of today's bowling balls have made it into something totally different. In the old days you might have seen the odd board that provided more or less friction. Today, the peaks and valleys, add a whole new dimension to how the lanes affect the roll of your ball.


Rob, would you agree with the idea that topography was less of an issue with wood lanes, especially those cases in which whoever resurfaced the lanes knew what they were doing and got the lanes as flat as possible? It appears to be much more of an issue with modern synthetic lanes. I also wonder how much change occurs in situations where synthetic lanes are placed over top the old wood lanes. I know that's the case in my house. The old wood lanes are still there. It would be interesting to find a house that replaced wood lanes with synthetic, but totally removed the wood lanes and "started from scratch." I wonder if such a house has less topography issues. Then, you have to wonder just how flat the concrete underneath the lanes is. I sort of doubt the run of the mill concrete company is going to make sure a concrete base is as level as the USBC requires a lane to be.

The more you think about it, the more potential issues arise. :?


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 4:28 pm Post Number: #14 Post
Online
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3901
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 861
Reputation Power: 9
pjape wrote:
The more you think about it, the more potential issues arise. :?


Yes. Absolutely.
I try not to think about it, but my ball motion reminds me its there.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:05 pm Post Number: #15 Post
Offline
Member

Joined: November 22, 2011
Posts: 457
Reputation: 16
Reputation Power: 1
In our country this is not being checked (at least for all I know) and really haven't heard any coaches here talk about this. In the videos it is interesting to note that 3 mils difference is a lot! So what are the adjustments if you have hints that the lanes are uneven, i.e. sloped to the right, sloped to the left, hill, valley etc?

_________________
LHB
PAP 5" over LEFT x 7/8" over UP
Tilt 18*
Speed 16 MPH (Off Hand)
Rev 250 RPM
Rot 65*


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 2:10 pm Post Number: #16 Post
Online
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: April 26, 2007
Posts: 3901
Location: Malta, NY
Reputation: 861
Reputation Power: 9
crashin12x wrote:
In our country this is not being checked (at least for all I know) and really haven't heard any coaches here talk about this. In the videos it is interesting to note that 3 mils difference is a lot! So what are the adjustments if you have hints that the lanes are uneven, i.e. sloped to the right, sloped to the left, hill, valley etc?


Yeah, stay away from that area of the lane.
I always test for topography in practice now.
Its outside of 7 and "miss" a hair right. If the ball looks completely different in shape trying to come back to the pocket I know gravity is acting on the ball. Best way I can put it is, it looks lazy, late and like urethane trying to get back uphill.
Also, you'd think you'd get some hold out of it, but I've found I do not. Once I get it going uphill slightly, its over the top of the hump (around 10) earlier and its left quick anyway. Even shots parallel to the boards, I need excessively low speed to get the ball to the pocket. Typically carry is poor at 14.5 on the monitor. I'm usually mid 15s to 16 naturally with a good release. Way too fast for downhill topography.

I have equipment drilled weak so I can play in the middle of the lane, where its very likely to be concave between 20 and 10, but its also where the pattern is very flat, very hard and where most power players crush the pattern (thanks THS). I've learned playing outside on a lane thats sloped away from the pocket is just not possible. I dedicated my entire sport league season trying to make it work and I found its fighting a losing battle. Carry stinks at lower speed and when the hill eats up the ball's entry angle trying to get to the pins.

In every bowling center with synthetics, a majority of installs today, there are only 3 boards guaranteed to be flat. 2, 20, 38. Where the lane is screwed down. When I hit 2 parallel, my ball hits the screw caps and bounces up and down in some centers, so thats not good either.

They are checking for this, but on synthetics, for the lane to pass inspection it only needs three spots on the lane to be flat, and the inspection is only once per year. Sounds fair right?

USBC fails the bowlers again. In bed with proprietors, making operating easy at the expense of integrity. I've heard of inspectors "working out" a reschedule to certain times of the year to pass inspection because lanes are out of spec certain times of the year. So, yes, it is possible to bowl on lanes out of spec even though they've been certified at some point in the year.

Its really bothersome and I can see why people in this sport quit.
Too much BS going on and its mostly against those footing the bill.

_________________
Please press the Image button if you feel I've been helpful.

“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Follow-up to Article Research
 Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:23 pm Post Number: #17 Post
Offline
Certified Coach
User avatar

Joined: October 25, 2010
Posts: 2855
Location: Sun City Arizona
Reputation: 557
Reputation Power: 6
Are centers required to post inspection certificates along with the nature of the inspections?
;)
Imagine if lanes were inspected like restaurants ...
Some proprietors like politicians and heads of state count on the ignorance of the populace.

Cheerio!

_________________
Comparison is the thief of joy.

http://mwkworks.com/desiderata.html

"Democracy dies in darkness"
"An ever vigilant press is the guardian of a free society."
E-books are convenient, but easily changed or removed.
John


Top 
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
 
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 17 posts ] 

Board index » General Forums » General Bowling


 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: