Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topography

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Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topography

Post by bowl1820 »

Interesting info about topography!

This week I chat with both Jerry Petrole and Ron Hatfield.

We discuss a great new app that Jerry developed called Track My Roll. We chat about the benefits of the app, and why Ron is a big fan of the app. We also discuss lane topography, how it happens and if anything should be done regarding the pairs at South Point. Ron also shares some coaching advice and how much is too much information when coaching a player.

The Podcast:
http://media.blubrry.com/above180/p/abo ... MYROLL.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

1-Track My Roll App talk (00:00-11:55)

2-Topography talk (11:55-18:00)

Here's the Kegel 2017 South Point Topography report they mention.
http://usbcongress.http.internapcdn.net ... graphy.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3-More Track My Roll App talk (18:00-19:25)

4-Coaching talk (19:25-21:25)

5-Wrap up (21:25-25:29)
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

Post by krava »

Listening as I post. Didn't know they had advertising in podcast but this is one of the first podcast I ever listened to.

Listened to it but most of that went over my head there talking about topography. I guess topography can tell you where not to play out on the lane? But if you are at Nationals and the topography is bad around 8-10 board then your screwed from the start. You can't play any other line there atleast not me. I have no idea how to read one of those or interpret one of those. I don't even know how to interpret (if that is spelled right) a oil map of the lane. I mean is there a difference between 20 and 30ml of oil?? I can read some of it but I can't tell if it is flat shot or what by looking at the map.

I am not sure if they explained alot of the app on it. I tried to listen to it but got interupted by people here several times and started it over several times. The guy did say he had trouble with his lay down point and also he talked about some kind of looping swing problem he has. They might have explained more about what the app does and how it works but I might have missed it. I did post a thing about this a few months ago trying to figure out more about it.

I know that he talked about gravity is the biggest force determining ball motion when he talked about topography but still I missed something. How do you adjust depending on the topography? I don't think that was explained. 33 and 34 sounds like the lanes we got when I was there.
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

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The metrics and maps provided are like road signs.
All lanes wear out.
All lanes lay on top of something.
There will be slopes, hills and valleys on every lane and they will all be unique.
Differences in height, depth, degree of slope that you cannot see will impact the way a ball
Rolls. If a ball rolls up hill, it will react like it's drier, conversely a down hill will react like oily.

When reading a lane, you must believe your eyes.

Don't limit your observation to your bowling only.

Remember, don't let ego get in the way.
The objective is scoring relative to the field.
How do you cope?
Read, watch, listen, experiment.
There are about 14 pages of hits searching for topography on this forum
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

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The metrics and maps provided are like road signs.
All lanes wear out.
All lanes lay on top of something.
There will be slopes, hills and valleys on every lane and they will all be unique.
Differences in height, depth, degree of slope that you cannot see will impact the way a ball
Rolls. If a ball rolls up hill, it will react like it's drier, conversely a down hill will react like oily.

When reading a lane, you must believe your eyes.

Don't limit your observation to your bowling only.

Remember, don't let ego get in the way.
The objective is scoring relative to the field.
How do you cope?
Read, watch, listen, experiment.
There are about 14 pages of hits searching for topography on this forum
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

Post by MegaMav »

This is what topography does to a ball.
Lanes are oiled exactly the same.
0.040" difference in pitch of the lane left to right.
Reading about it is one thing, but actually seeing it is here, and now, and real to take in.
Its a major player in ball motion and I would argue overrides oil pattern characteristics 2:1.

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

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MegaMav wrote:This is what topography does to a ball.
Lanes are oiled exactly the same.
0.040" difference in pitch of the lane left to right.
Reading about it is one thing, but actually seeing it is here, and now, and real to take in.
Its a major player in ball motion and I would argue overrides oil pattern characteristics 2:1.
I owe you a GREENIE, as soon as the system let's me do so.

Excellent exhibition. Seeing is believing.
If I can get on a pc and remember how, I will put something on wiki. I'm not on pc often.
I had another item different topic to put on the wiki, but it's been a while. Looked for chest sheet.
What is the best way to add images?

Years ago PBIII explained this to me and illustrated it on a napkin.
Coincidentally, lanes 3 and 4 at the house seemed to exhibit some nasty topography. While other lefties battled, PBIII adjusted and overcame.
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and to that freedom for all.

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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

Post by bowl1820 »

Here's this one too.

Ball going up and down a hill on the lane


The Basics of the Topography of a Bowling Lane Part 1
[youtube][/youtube]
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

Post by MegaMav »

kajmk wrote: What is the best way to add images?
Upload and reference the image file, like:

... text text text
[[File:example.jpg|200px|caption]]
text text text ...
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

Post by kajmk »

My problem was that once I uploaded an image, I could not add it to my text member.
I'd done it in the past many moons ago.

Was working on kindle, will revisit and retry on pc ...

Thanks!!
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

Post by krava »

How can you tell you have a bad topography lane? Maybe if you get a pair and it doesn't act the same on the pair? I haven't ever had a pair that I had to play differently yet. Or maybe your ball does something weird from the start? SUppose you don't have a topography map (most places don't give you that). How do you know that you have some messed up lanes to start with?
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

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krava wrote:How can you tell you have a bad topography lane? Maybe if you get a pair and it doesn't act the same on the pair? I haven't ever had a pair that I had to play differently yet. Or maybe your ball does something weird from the start? SUppose you don't have a topography map (most places don't give you that). How do you know that you have some messed up lanes to start with?
krava, one method of determination is comparison of A to B .
In the videos above, elite bowler's are bowling on two lanes that are oiled the same.
As you can see, the ball reacts very differently, as if the is more oil on one than the other.
Of course, being able to roll consistent shots is essential to evaluating ball reaction.
Remember that years ago, there were no arrows, no range finders, no pattern charts etc.
In absence of that, you blaze your own trail. You must know yourself though, how consistent, what you think you hit. What your perspective is, for example a variance between what you think you hit and what you did hit.

More on the subject of topography ...
Ever wonder just how much .040 of an inch is?
[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=mu0Zzpslppo[/youtube]

[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=XB182DsIT2M[/youtube]

Topography is just one of many topics that sources such as Bowling This Month (BTM)
has covered over the years. As bowler's we have to realize the value of knowledge.
The price of good books or a resource like BTM is miniscule.
Although the Kouros book is old, it provides an excellent foundation for
a pyramid of knowledge (term borrowed from Ritger)
Here on Bowling Chat, we have reviewed some bowling books and videos. The wiki has
links to some.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

Post by krava »

I might have ran into this today. I don't know about any of you people, I have never had to stand on different boards on a pair of lanes ever for the start of a league. I made a mistake and never threw my timless ball on the left lane in practice. I was trying desperately to use another ball but it never made it to the pocket. Me and my partner both threw the first ball on the left and and she told me that if you get outside of 10 it isn't coming back. I know I threw my ball well enough on the left lane and completely missed the pocket to the right on the first ball I threw on the left lane. Maybe that had different topography? I moved 1/2 board right and then hit the pocket on the next one and struck. Next shot I went brooklyn and got lucky and then after that, the lanes were matched up and stood on 27 throwing accross 10 and out to 6 maybe until the last game of league. But if the topography was off on the left lane, then wouldn't it be off all night? Maybe there was just a small puddle of excess oil in the area I was playing and it went away after the first few shots?
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

Post by RobMautner »

Several years ago when I first met Susie M, she told me that her favorite thing that I ever wrote for BTM was that two lanes that happen to be next to each other should never be considered a "pair" for the simple reason that most things that come in pairs; shoes, socks, gloves, etc. match each other, while lanes rarely do. I always tell my students that it's all about assumptions. If you start on a "pair" of lanes and assume that they will play the same, 90% of the time you will be wrong. Conversely, if you assume that they will be different, 90% of the time you will be right. Here's the tough part: you have to learn to watch your ball reaction to determine the differences. Unless you are a professional-level bowler, if you wait until you throw a perfect shot to make a move, you will have wasted at least half a game before you ever get lined up.
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

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RobMautner wrote:Several years ago when I first met Susie M, she told me that her favorite thing that I ever wrote for BTM was that two lanes that happen to be next to each other should never be considered a "pair" for the simple reason that most things that come in pairs; shoes, socks, gloves, etc. match each other, while lanes rarely do. I always tell my students that it's all about assumptions. If you start on a "pair" of lanes and assume that they will play the same, 90% of the time you will be wrong. Conversely, if you assume that they will be different, 90% of the time you will be right. Here's the tough part: you have to learn to watch your ball reaction to determine the differences. Unless you are a professional-level bowler, if you wait until you throw a perfect shot to make a move, you will have wasted at least half a game before you ever get lined up.
Wisdom.
Not that I ever was anything special, but there were times I not only rolled different lines, but different shapes on a "pair".
A friend of mine who was special, sometimes used different weights on a pair.
That is no easy feat. But then he had skill!
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

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The hardest thing for bowlers to grasp is that while it was not always this bad in terms of topography, it is getting worse each year as balls become more reactive (pointing out the differences), and the synthetic lanes continue to deteriorate. Most of the lanes that were first put in in the eighties have not been replaced, they have simply had overlays put on them. Each generation of overlay magnifies the differences significantly.
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

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RobMautner wrote:The hardest thing for bowlers to grasp is that while it was not always this bad in terms of topography, it is getting worse each year as balls become more reactive (pointing out the differences), and the synthetic lanes continue to deteriorate. Most of the lanes that were first put in in the eighties have not been replaced, they have simply had overlays put on them. Each generation of overlay magnifies the differences significantly.
I know you mentioned it before, saying they are stacking new synthetic panels on top of old ones in Vegas.

Personally I've never seen that happen, I seen old wood lanes cut level and panels installed on them. And if new panels needed they removed old ones and replaced them.

If you keep stacking panels you'd have to keep raising the pin deck to match, I would think at some point the pinsetter would be too close to pins unless they are jacking it up or lowering the foundation for the lanes.

So they can't be stacking them generation after generation.
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

Post by RobMautner »

This is what I was told by a long-time lane man at one of the oldest centers in Vegas. You have to understand that bowling in Vegas is like nowhere else in that the bowling centers are in Casinos, and the Casinos are owned by giant corporations who look at them like more traditional businesses: individual departments as independent profit centers. For example, when I first moved here in 2004, I used to meet a friend of mine at 5:00 a.m. every Saturday morning at the Suncoast. When we got there, there were always a few lanes in use, mostly leftovers from Friday night. After a few years, the powers that be decided that the bowling center bar wasn't being profitable enough during the wee hours, so they decided to close the bar at 2 a.m. Before you knew it, when we would arrive at five, we would be alone. After another couple of years, they decided that the bowling center was not making enough money each night, so it too would close at 2 a.m., and re-open at 8 a.m.

Now, here's the problem: the Suncoast has the most active senior bowling program in the valley. Many of the seniors used to come between 6 and 7 a.m. to practice. Those bowlers don't practice there any more. Those same bowlers would also frequent the buffet after bowling, and stop to visit a slot machine or two. Those profits are now gone, but there is no direct link, so the corporation doesn't recognize it. The same goes for the bowling centers themselves. When centers aren't properly maintained, bowlers go elsewhere and take their food and gaming $ with them. Oh, well.
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

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Remember when Brunswick first introduced synthetic lanes? A huge banner emblazoned with their slogan read: "The shot's the same on every lane". Having an opportunity to play on those lanes before they became worn one could say, they might not have been exactly the same, but they were very, very close.

So, what happened? Shoddy or ineffectual installation methods? Or, the surface is less than ideal, so, what the heck, install them anyway?
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

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I play these bowling podcasts in my shop for my customers and friends to hear every day.
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Re: Above180 Podcast: All You Need To Know About Lane Topogr

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Above180 Podcast

Among the discussion points was a the topic of topography.

"This week I catch up with Dave Cirigliano owner of Bowling Dynamics Pro Shop. We chat about an email I recently received which discussed how weekend warriors can keep with folks on the PBA Regional tour. We discuss surfaces needs and how to setup an arsenal for a tournament. Please visit Bowling This Month Online for great tips on how to help your game and Bowler X.com for all your equipment needs. Coaches and players also check out TrackMyRoll.com if you are really looking to understand your equipment."


http://above180.com/2017/08/3-keys-to-h ... ng-season/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Dave's shops are on the forum map ...
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