Ball weight and shoulder pain.

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newroller
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Ball weight and shoulder pain.

Post by newroller »

History: So I've been bowling for about 6-7 months. I'm not very good at all, averaging about 130 now, up from 100 before. I worked with a couple of coaches, but coaching in my area is hit and miss and I just can't seem to find a good adult coach that has time consistently. I bowled league for a season and recently decided to not renew and just practice until I gain more confidence in my game. Watch tons of youtube videos, but not really improving my game as much as I would like.

I bowl about 5-6 days per week (3-4 games per day), but without coaching, I'm pretty much reinforcing bad habits and guessing to be honest. I have a 14# Roto Grip Critical and a 15# Roto Grip Wrecker. I started with the 14# Critical and bowled league with it, but found it didn't have the power with my style to strike consistently (I throw about 14mph according to our centers speedo). I had a used 15# wrecker drilled for me, and tried using it for a few weeks. Although I was more consistent with my throw and strikes, the ball fatigued my shoulder/arm very quickly.

I'm a big guy: 44yo 6'3" 230lbs, WIDE shoulders and hips, which makes small inconsistencies amplify. Lately, I've been experiencing shoulder soreness. I've decided to take every other day off bowling and simply use the 14# for now, even though I have more success with the 15#. I'm also doing daily stretching and strengthening routines with bands. I imagine my inexperience and form is contributing to my injuriy/soreness.

My questions are:

1) A guy my size should be able to throw that 15# with no problem. Should I just stick with the 14# which compromises my consistency?

2) At which point do you back off your game and recover? I'm having no serious pain and my range of motion and strength are not currently affected. Just a little sore when moving my arm. The new stretching and strengthening routine I'm doing is helping, just seems I'm always slightly sore recently. I've had similar issue in the past when I wasn't bowling and it was attributed to sleeping on that shoulder. I've backed off on that bad habit as well.

3) Any suggestions on finding a good adult coach? I live in the East Bay Area of California if anyone has any suggestions.

I really enjoy bowling, and want to have a better game and get back into league. I feel like I'm spinning my wheels with all the practicing I'm doing with little to no gain.
SomyP
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Re: Ball weight and shoulder pain.

Post by SomyP »

You are probably having shoulder issues from pulling down from the top of your swing. I'm only 25 but have been bowling since I was 9. So for 16 years of my life I've gotten pretty good from bowling. The most important thing is you want to incorporate more of your legs into your game. Simply let the ball fall after you hinge or push it away. From there let it get to the top naturally. Once the ball gets to the top you will feel a slight weightlessness. Once you feel that let the ball fall. This will save a lot of stress on your shoulder. Also Norm Duke is a small guy who uses 16 lb equipment and I've never heard him complain about shoulder issues at all.
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Re: Ball weight and shoulder pain.

Post by krava »

I am 5'10 305lbs or so now (overweight) 5'10 225lbs 10% bodyfat if I can ever get there. Lets talk about shoulder strength. My shoulders are stronger then my chest. Before my injury I could do upright rows with a weight bar 120lbs for sets of 10. I could do the entire stack of weights on upright row on a machine. The military press, I could do the machine sitting down the entire weight stack 150lbs on each hand 4 sets of 10-12. Long story short, I was throwing the ball, bowling several times a week. I felt my shoulder hurting and ignored it and then got to the point where I had to ice it. After doing so for a few weeks, I ended up with my shoulder "exploding" and having 2 tears in my shoulder. I was out a good 7-8 months and still haven't completely recovered. What is going on with your shoulder is that you haven't worked your small back shoulder muscles. THese are small muscles that you don't work when you bodybuild. There are 3-4 muscles in the shoulder and what is going on, is that if you don't work those muscles, the tendon that you use to throw the ball doesn't have very far to travel through (opening) and then ends up getting cut on the bone. The more you work those muscles the bigger the opening gets. What is going to end up is your going to "fray" and cut that tendon and it will finally tear and never repair completely. If you shoulder is hurting. I hate to say this but it is summer. If you are bowling in one league just bowl that league and no other practice. If you aren't in a league take 2 months off you need it. Right now I bowled 11 games in 1 day before nationals and ended up injuring my shoulder a little again and it cost me from bowling in 2 tournaments. I have only bowled 1 time a week since then and it is doing alot better and almost comletely healed back to normal. (I bowled April 16-17th or so). Your shoulder needs alot of rest and you need to do the correct exercises.

Exercises that were recommended to me:

#1 Front pull downs (this is like a pull up, grab the bar as if you are doing a pull up and pull the bar down infront of your head straight down)

#2 regular seated rows

#3 Not sure the name, You take your elbow and put it to your side then lay on your side (or use a pully bar if you stand) if you are on your side on the bed you left the weight up about 10 inches or so and keep your elbow to your side. if you are using a pully have the weight pull the pully a few inches and keep the shoulder to the side.

I haven't done any exercises in months I need to get back to it.
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kajmk
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Re: Ball weight and shoulder pain.

Post by kajmk »

Welcome to Bowlingchat newroller.
There was a recent topic regarding a pain issue, see.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13113" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for a coaching recommendation, I suggest you create a separate topic asking for referrals, include the area. This way, your requirement will be out on the table, so to speak.

Working with a coach is a wise choice.
All too many people of all ages, sizes and genders use way too much physical effort.

It is imperative that the ball fits your hand properly, so that your hand can relax and ride the ball. An ideal grip allows you to employ minimal grip pressure.
See Gary's post #4
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=3894&p=30950&hilit=Bird#p30950" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Someone cited Norm Duke as an example of a small man who ROLLS a 16 pound ball (in his video, he said he was 130 pounds).

A swinging ball generates a LOT of centrifugal force, Kouros wrote that it was up to 4 times the weight.

There are lady bowler's who ROLL 16 pounds, Missy Parkin is one.
Incidentally, Bill Spigner analyzed their games for Bowler's Journal.
See http://www.billspigner.com/articles" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bowling has in the past and continues to have elite bowler's of all sizes and shapes.
Pete Weber and Ameltto Monacelli are small yet they ROLL powerful shots.

I always advised bowler's to watch good lady bowler's as most (not all) are more technically proficient then men.

Barring a constraint of physiology, the ball weight is the least likely suspect.

There are some good technique pointers on the wiki, for example the Kegel Teen Masters and the ETBF video. Note that you can find that lengthy ETBF video broken up into three parts.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ence_video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... hing_Video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Most humans are better off using physics rather than abusing it.
Remember this bit of wisdom from another swing sport, learn to swing with EFFORTLESS power, not POWERLESS effort (paraphrasing Sam Snead). Look up Effortless Power on the internet, you will find numerous references.

There is a very interesting story about Del braking an arm as a boy and him attributing his vast improvement to that broken arm. That was detailed in a bowlers digest. Why? Because, being afraid to reinjure his arm, he softened up. Lo and behold he improved and one day became one of the best on PBA tour.

A tip from Norm Duke,

[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=8ldkNAjl9cA[/youtube]

A drill:
Swing drill by way of Michelle Mullen (spelling), met her, was coached by her when she held a seminar at ASU.
You will need a nickel.
Place the nickel in the palm of your hand, keep the hand OPEN, place and swing it, do not lose the nickel.
You can not grab it. Centrifugal force will keep it on your hand, this can also foster good arm position as if you roll the forearm, the nickel will slide.

Possible training prop using a small drink vessel with handle, see "config"
Note, that was an off the cuff impromptu idea, never got feedback.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=10843&p=83931&hilit=Contigo#p83931" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Rest the shoulder, check the grip, find that coach.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
newroller
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Re: Ball weight and shoulder pain.

Post by newroller »

Thanks for the replies all. Will spend some time this week to review those links.

I have made some changes and my shoulder pain has mostly subsided.

1) Stopped sleeping on the bad shoulder. This was the most difficult as it is the most comfortable position I sleep in. It will take come getting used to but I am not waking in pain anymore on that shoulder.

2) Rest. I was scheduled to go on vacation for 7 days, so during that time I was unable to bowl. In the last 3 weeks if I was having increased soreness, I didn't bowl.

3) Conditioning. I purchased a set of Resistance bands with handles. I do shoulder stretching and strengthening every day now. Takes about 20 minutes to complete.

4) My swing. I noticed that due to my long stride and long arms, I was rushing my swing to finish at the foul line. I moved back about 6 inches and slowed my approach down to work on my timing a bit more. I am paying a lot more atention on letting the ball do the work. I was forcing it before, I'm sure of this. I also lean forward a bit during my approach now which brings my backswing a bit higher reducing the stress on my shoulder.

kajmk, funny you mention some of the pros styles. I had the chance last month to watch the pba50 in person and examine the styles of Ameltto Monacelli, Walter Ray, Kenny Price, and the like. Gleamed a lot of advice from them. Also, you are spot on with Del's injury. Since I have been babying my shoulder, I've been working more on simplifying my game with emphasis on efficient swing and release of the ball. It has helped tremendously.

My bowling center is putting in new lanes very soon. Not sure if I could put to use an old lane or two for home practice or drills. :D
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kajmk
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Re: Ball weight and shoulder pain.

Post by kajmk »

Of possible interest, this thread on Bowling and Fitness
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2948" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A few words on shoulders
https://m.youtube.com/#/results?q=athle ... lders&sm=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, note the point made by Juha about shoulder range of motion and the opening up of the body, avoidance of elastic muscular tension in the bowling swing.
The ETBF video wiki or YouTube is worth watching. It is broken up into 3 segments on YouTube.

Consider that you can hurt a shoulder throwing a grape, so weight is not the only factor.



Cheers!
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
newroller
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Re: Ball weight and shoulder pain.

Post by newroller »

kajmk wrote:
Also, note the point made by Juha about shoulder range of motion and the opening up of the body, avoidance of elastic muscular tension in the bowling swing.


Cheers!
Citation needed. Not sure where the Juha post or information is that you mentioned.

Also, your comment on fitness reminded me of the scene from the bowling movie Kingpin: :D

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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kajmk
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Re: Ball weight and shoulder pain.

Post by kajmk »

That was a reference to a video recorded in 2014 at the ITRC, it was a presentation by two coaches from the ETBF Juha Maha and Onder Gurkan

You will see a reference to the ETBF Coaching videos, there are 2 at present.

Below you will see the long video, broken up into 3 parts. All are worth watching.

The part I referred to begins about 2 minutes into part 3.
Note well that biomechanics are mentioned/discussed in the other videos.
The second video on the wiki, by Mohamed Janahi is a very good presentation.


[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=q7ZJWr2zgMg[/youtube]


[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=LAP0nh-HV6k[/youtube]


[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=lmA9WJ0TlQ0[/youtube]



This thread below, also has a print of an Everything Toward Target
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=13078&hilit=Onder" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This drill can also be used to practice focal points from diagonal angles, use a plastic ball to get the ball farther down the land. The focal point is place at the pin deck.
See
Week 7 at
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... ence_video" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

For a bit more see

[youtube]https://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=w62JZe_rBmk[/youtube]
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
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kajmk
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Re: Ball weight and shoulder pain.

Post by kajmk »

Wanted to bump this for a few reasons.
One being that I see too many bowler's abusing their shoulders, that's playing Russian roulette.
There are some good references in this thread, for example, the short Norm Duke tip, Michelle Mullen's "Nickel Drill".
Be sure to check out Ron Clifton's Bowl4fun archives, there are several germane to the topic and much more. Ron has over 40 articles that can help bowler's improve.
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/roncarchive.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One of the way astronomers detect the presence of planets is to look for a small wobble in a star. If a planet can induce a wobble in a star, imagine what a bowling ball can do to you.
Use gravity don't abuse it, gravity wins.

Learn to Swing with EFFORTLESS POWER INSTEAD OF POWERLESS EFFORT.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
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