Is Bowling an Entitlement
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Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
Saying the youth isn't the future because so few stick with it probably doesn't capture the big picture. If only 2% continue to bowl leagues into their 20s, that's a shame. But what is the percentage of younger adults joining leagues that DIDNT start at a young age? From what I can tell around here, that number is near 0, with the exceptions being spouses and friends who were talked into bowling leagues by people that HAVE been bowling since youth.
We have to invest in the youth bowlers because the small percentage of them that continue into adult bowlers are going to drive league participation when the older generations begin to quit. The best way to get people to join leagues is and always will be a friend saying "hey, want to join a bowling league?" I believe that conversation will almost always be started by someone that has bowled their whole life.
I have no data points to back this up, just local observation.
We have to invest in the youth bowlers because the small percentage of them that continue into adult bowlers are going to drive league participation when the older generations begin to quit. The best way to get people to join leagues is and always will be a friend saying "hey, want to join a bowling league?" I believe that conversation will almost always be started by someone that has bowled their whole life.
I have no data points to back this up, just local observation.
PAP- 4 1/8 over, 3/4 up
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12
Speed - 17-18 monitor
Rev Rate - 475
Rotation - 65
Tilt - 12
Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
I believe you have a very good point. My problem is the general argument that youth bowling is the future of the sport. There have even been some statements that scholarships and more money will entice young people to join bowling. I hope the present younger generation is not so mercenary that sport is avoided simply because no one will pay to see them bowl.Bahshay wrote:Saying the youth isn't the future because so few stick with it probably doesn't capture the big picture. If only 2% continue to bowl leagues into their 20s, that's a shame. But what is the percentage of younger adults joining leagues that DIDNT start at a young age? From what I can tell around here, that number is near 0, with the exceptions being spouses and friends who were talked into bowling leagues by people that HAVE been bowling since youth.
We have to invest in the youth bowlers because the small percentage of them that continue into adult bowlers are going to drive league participation when the older generations begin to quit. The best way to get people to join leagues is and always will be a friend saying "hey, want to join a bowling league?" I believe that conversation will almost always be started by someone that has bowled their whole life.
I have no data points to back this up, just local observation.
League bowling involves social contact as well as the competitive aspect for most people. The size of the prize fund is probably not as important for many participants. Perhaps reducing the prize fund and emphasising the social/competitive will encourage the social leagues. The bowlers who are only in it for the money will not such leagues. For example there are many bowling activities involving senior citizens, some are structured as competitive leagues while others emphasize the social side. Many bowling centers run such activities for seniors and offer free coaching or coffee or discounts on equipment.
Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
Something like 70 million people take to the lanes each year. People like to bowl. What they don't like is an obligation of 32 - 36 weeks x 4 hours each week. The other thing that turns them off is all of the bickering, something so simple as, the shot's too easy, the shot's too tough. Enough is enough already, just bowl.
The 2% of the youth who actually move on are usually pretty good. They have spent a lifetime, albeit, a short lifetime bowling. I'll bet, at some point in time, many of them have invited friends to the lanes. That's like LaBron inviting a person who has never seen a basketball court to play basketball. Really, no one wants to get run over, it plays heavily on the human psyche.
Over the years, many different approaches have been implemented in an effort to attract more people to league bowling. Sadly, they have all missed the mark. That is a real problem, time and money not very well spent.
The 2% of the youth who actually move on are usually pretty good. They have spent a lifetime, albeit, a short lifetime bowling. I'll bet, at some point in time, many of them have invited friends to the lanes. That's like LaBron inviting a person who has never seen a basketball court to play basketball. Really, no one wants to get run over, it plays heavily on the human psyche.
Over the years, many different approaches have been implemented in an effort to attract more people to league bowling. Sadly, they have all missed the mark. That is a real problem, time and money not very well spent.
Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
As an institution (bowling-as-an-institution), we have a contradiction in that we spend money and want to developed league bowling on a micro level but, on the macro level, the American people since 1972, have been marketed/brainwashed into believing that bowling is an escapists recreation and THAT IS THE PROBLEM!TomaHawk wrote:Over the years, many different approaches have been implemented in an effort to attract more people to league bowling. Sadly, they have all missed the mark. That is a real problem, time and money not very well spent.
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Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
I hope this afterlife has a bowling alley.TonyPR wrote:If bowling is to die then so be it, many of us won't be around to see it anyway, it depends on not only the sport skills but the values we teach to the youth so that they have the desire to progress in life and give the same experiences we gave to them when they have their own children. Bowling is an expensive sport and it probably won't get any cheaper so if today's kids don't aspire for careers that can pay for the things they love to do then bowling is really doomed. We will be watching from somewhere in the "afterlife".
Seriously, I'm coming back to this thread because I, too, am trying start a bowling league. I stood up a trios league on Wed nights two years ago but it only survived one year. After having to bowl in an established league on Wednesdays at another house, I am back to trying once again to get this trios league up and running. I live in a subdivision which consists of more than several independent neighborhoods. Last year the HOA solicited for recreational ideas. Using that as an entry I approached a community rep about starting a league, targeting the adults and their family and friends. In a few days she is going to send out an email to all the residents gauging their interest in bowling league.
So we will see how it goes. I've prepared some talking points for folks who express an interest. The goal is to get at least eight teams. Handicap is set at 100% of highest average. Teams can be of any gender (no female/male requirement) and rosters can consist of up to five people (although only three will bowl). Cost is minimal: Lineage and a small fee for sec/treas., no prize fund but we will have games weekly (high team series, for example) for those who wish to participate. Split season, 12 weeks each half, teams can bowl only one half or the full season. First place first half technically can skip second half and still bowl in the roll-off. No bowling in Dec, and the season ends at the end of March in time for school Spring breaks.
Management will offer special learn-to-bowl classes leading up to the beginning the season and we are trying to pull-off a no-tap in June for the community (adults and kids 12 years and older) to generate interest in the league.
My league is nothing like MegaMav's. I am trying to get people to think about bowling league who normally would never consider it, and I am making it as easy as possible for them to say yes. I feel if I can get them bowling a certain percentage will continue into the next year. And I won't have to travel to that other house to bowl on Wed nights!
Viper/Joe
Last edited by Viper on April 7th, 2017, 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
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Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
Good luck Joe! Hope it all works out, that sounds like a good way to get the community involved.
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- Viper
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Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
Thanks Tony. My bowling coach today recommended I don't use the word "league" in the talking points, just go with "Wednesday Night Bowling." Good point I thought so I'm going with it.TonyPR wrote:Good luck Joe! Hope it all works out, that sounds like a good way to get the community involved.
Viper/Joe
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
I like it. Are you planning on sanctioning your Wednesday Night Bowling?Viper wrote:
Thanks Tony. My bowling coach today recommended I don't use the word "league" in the talking points, just go with "Wednesday Night Bowling." Good point I thought so I'm going with it.
Viper/Joe
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Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
That's my plan. Of course, I think like a league bowler! I hope that the one-time $18 fee isn't going to discourage folks. Good point though, thanks TomaHawk. I will talk it over with my neighbor.TomaHawk wrote:
I like it. Are you planning on sanctioning your Wednesday Night Bowling?
What's your recommendation?
Viper/Joe
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
Viper wrote:
That's my plan. Of course, I think like a league bowler! I hope that the one-time $18 fee isn't going to discourage folks. Good point though, thanks TomaHawk. I will talk it over with my neighbor.
What's your recommendation?
Viper/Joe
Your idea / approach / concept is refreshing! Ultimately, I think you'll have to consider whether USBC has anything to offer this type of bowler. Would not want to create an atmosphere that might cause any amount of apprehension on behalf of a "new born" bowler, especially on the first night.
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Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
TomaHawk wrote: Ultimately, I think you'll have to consider whether USBC has anything to offer this type of bowler.
TomaHawk,
I was thinking just that after I responded to you. If asked by any of these folks I am trying to recruit, "What's the benefit of being sanctioned?", I am not certain how I would respond. I am a strong supporter of the USBC as a rule-making body. I think that alone warrants financial support. But that is just me, and I'm not sure how I could justify the cost to someone who has never bowled league before, let alone a tournament.
I think my answer has to be: unsanctioned. My friends, who I am bringing in to pair with the inexperienced bowlers (should they want), all bowl in other leagues so they will sanction (as will I).
I suppose if a recruit, on down the line, subs in another league or decides to bowl in a tournament, then he/she will have to sanction ahead of bowling that event.
Thanks for making me think about this. If there is someone who believes otherwise, speak up, please. Nothing is set in stone.
Viper/Joe
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
Another benefit offered by the USBC is bonding.
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* RPM
AR *
AT *
PAP 3 3/4"
(* rebuilding)
“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
― Neil deGrasse Tyson
Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
Over my career in the business, I know of seven leagues where the secretary took off with the money.Dustin wrote:Another benefit offered by the USBC is bonding.
None of the league members ever got their money. Maybe someone else has had a different experience?
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Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
In my case, there is no prize fund, just lineage and a small fee, which goes to the House, too. It's a managed league, managed by the House manager, so if he runs off with it he has bigger problems than the USBC.Dustin wrote:Another benefit offered by the USBC is bonding.
But you bring up a valid point. If this league had a prize fund then I would push for sanctioning (which would be a good selling point).
Appreciate the help!
Viper/Joe
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
Whether you decide to sanction or not is totally up to you. The main thing, you're trying to get people onto the lanes and all I can say, Good For You!Viper wrote:
In my case, there is no prize fund, just lineage and a small fee, which goes to the House, too. It's a managed league, managed by the House manager, so if he runs off with it he has bigger problems than the USBC.
But you bring up a valid point. If this league had a prize fund then I would push for sanctioning (which would be a good selling point).
Appreciate the help!
Viper/Joe
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Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
Very interesting topic. Looks that bowling is little bit different on US than here on Finland.
What I quickly looked which kind of competitions we have on going here I can say that about 80% of them ratio is between 3:1 - 5:1. 19% them ratio is between 5:1 - 10:1 and only 1% of them has real sport pattern 3:1 - 1.6:1 (did not found any competition below 1.6:1).
Time to time we have lot of discuss about that we do not have enough competitions with challenging oil patterns are that why averages are going too high.
Example on nearest bowling center on last competition they had oil pattern like this with ratio 4.25:1 and it was agreed with bowling alley operator that it was too easy so now when our bowling society organizes competition on next 1.5 months we this a bit more challenging oil pattern with 3.27:1 ratio.
What I see as a biggest problem here is that we don't have enough competitions with real sport patterns but of course that is not common opinion and I think that there is also many bowlers who would like to see more easier oil patterns.
And just FYI, I'm 31 years old dude who started seriosly bowling hobby about 2.5 years ago and my current average is 166.
What you guys are calculating as challenge oil pattern and what to THS?MegaMav wrote:I am in the beginning stages of starting a new bowling league in the area specializing in non-house shots but not solely revolving around strict sport conditions. It would be challenge shots around 5:1 middle to outside ratio all the way down to 1:1.
What I quickly looked which kind of competitions we have on going here I can say that about 80% of them ratio is between 3:1 - 5:1. 19% them ratio is between 5:1 - 10:1 and only 1% of them has real sport pattern 3:1 - 1.6:1 (did not found any competition below 1.6:1).
Time to time we have lot of discuss about that we do not have enough competitions with challenging oil patterns are that why averages are going too high.
Example on nearest bowling center on last competition they had oil pattern like this with ratio 4.25:1 and it was agreed with bowling alley operator that it was too easy so now when our bowling society organizes competition on next 1.5 months we this a bit more challenging oil pattern with 3.27:1 ratio.
What I see as a biggest problem here is that we don't have enough competitions with real sport patterns but of course that is not common opinion and I think that there is also many bowlers who would like to see more easier oil patterns.
And just FYI, I'm 31 years old dude who started seriosly bowling hobby about 2.5 years ago and my current average is 166.
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Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
How about an oil pattern from the foul line to the headpin the same volume and distance? Let's see who's more consistent at release and repeating shots with today's technology? Somebody's bound to figure it out at some point right? This takes the blocked house shot out of play and puts it directly on the bowler. I bowled on this very condition 33 years ago before urethane, had 3rd high game for the year at 244 at the ripe old age of 18 using of all things a Columbia 300 silver pearl blue dot. My first year as a league bowler after high school. No formal instruction until I hooked up with Scott Pohl , Matt McNeil and Mo the last 5 years.
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PAP 4 1/8, 1/2 up
Axis Rotation 20
Axis Tilt 23
Rev rate 280
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PAP 4 1/8, 1/2 up
Axis Rotation 20
Axis Tilt 23
Rev rate 280
Speed Dominate / Rev Challenged
14-16mph at monitor
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Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
As I mentioned in the other thread, I think there's room for both Megamav and Viper's approach. Give competitive bowlers opportunities to compete and improve on tough conditions, and give the casual bowler a place where they they feel welcome and have room to grow.
I bowl in a couple of leagues and sub in a few others. I bowl scratch (sport) tournaments and the occasional handicap (house) ones as well. It's all fun and I wouldn't want to choose one over the other. We're hoping to add a sport/challenge league next year which would be awesome.
I got back into bowling because of an unsanctioned, 10 week casual league like Viper is suggesting. This is a social league, designed for networking and community building. It is awesome. Basically started with a few neighbors and then friends of neighbors and grew from there. There are a few high average bowlers, intermediate and rank beginners. It all works out great.
After 30 years away, the thought of a highly competitive, sanctioned, 35 week league was way too daunting. I started over with a house ball and rented shoes and quickly got hooked again. I had actually forgotten that many of my best childhood memories centered around bowling. Without this easy entry point, I never would have gotten up the courage to return.
We run this league in Winter and Spring, and the turnout is great. 48-56 regulars in Winter and 12-18 in Spring & Summer, with a fair number of subs. Participation drops off due to improved weather and family commitments - kids soccer, baseball, etc. There is now a subset of 6-8 who bowl year round in sanctioned leagues. Again, without the casual league this never would have happened.
It works because it's short, and late (we start at 8:45pm) so we can have dinner with the family and put kids to bed. We have a modest prize fund, and a trophy with engraved nameplate. Everybody wants their name on the trophy, the prize money gets spent on drinks and food! We're not bonded, but we all know where the officers live and trust them not to run off with a few hundred bucks.
Steve
I bowl in a couple of leagues and sub in a few others. I bowl scratch (sport) tournaments and the occasional handicap (house) ones as well. It's all fun and I wouldn't want to choose one over the other. We're hoping to add a sport/challenge league next year which would be awesome.
I got back into bowling because of an unsanctioned, 10 week casual league like Viper is suggesting. This is a social league, designed for networking and community building. It is awesome. Basically started with a few neighbors and then friends of neighbors and grew from there. There are a few high average bowlers, intermediate and rank beginners. It all works out great.
After 30 years away, the thought of a highly competitive, sanctioned, 35 week league was way too daunting. I started over with a house ball and rented shoes and quickly got hooked again. I had actually forgotten that many of my best childhood memories centered around bowling. Without this easy entry point, I never would have gotten up the courage to return.
We run this league in Winter and Spring, and the turnout is great. 48-56 regulars in Winter and 12-18 in Spring & Summer, with a fair number of subs. Participation drops off due to improved weather and family commitments - kids soccer, baseball, etc. There is now a subset of 6-8 who bowl year round in sanctioned leagues. Again, without the casual league this never would have happened.
It works because it's short, and late (we start at 8:45pm) so we can have dinner with the family and put kids to bed. We have a modest prize fund, and a trophy with engraved nameplate. Everybody wants their name on the trophy, the prize money gets spent on drinks and food! We're not bonded, but we all know where the officers live and trust them not to run off with a few hundred bucks.
Steve
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Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
Hello Folks!
I want to update you on my success, or rather, lack thereof, in organizing a community league. I never got to first base.
The precursor to the league was a community event, this summer: A nine-pin no-tap tournament--$10 entry fee (shoes included), $25 gift cards for first place in the three divisions, free soda and snacks, and free games as door prizes, courtesy of the House management. We got a total of three people out of a community of 840 families. Those three folks were me, my son, and the Community social events coordinator. So many reasons given for not being able to attend it would break your heart.
As a result, those of us attempting to organize the league decided to throw in the towel on the idea.
Did I give-in too soon? Perhaps. But only three? Out of 840 families? C'mon man! That told me all I needed to know. How could I expect a commitment of eight weeks from 32 people if I couldn't even get one person for 2.5 hours?
I will say that the social coordinator hit it off with the House ass't manager (who is now the manager), and they thought trying the no-tap again would be worth the effort, once school had re-started for the year. I told them I would be happy to organize it once they decided on a date. I'll let you know how that one works out. In the meantime . . . .
Success to everyone this coming season!!!
Viper/Joe
I want to update you on my success, or rather, lack thereof, in organizing a community league. I never got to first base.
The precursor to the league was a community event, this summer: A nine-pin no-tap tournament--$10 entry fee (shoes included), $25 gift cards for first place in the three divisions, free soda and snacks, and free games as door prizes, courtesy of the House management. We got a total of three people out of a community of 840 families. Those three folks were me, my son, and the Community social events coordinator. So many reasons given for not being able to attend it would break your heart.
As a result, those of us attempting to organize the league decided to throw in the towel on the idea.
Did I give-in too soon? Perhaps. But only three? Out of 840 families? C'mon man! That told me all I needed to know. How could I expect a commitment of eight weeks from 32 people if I couldn't even get one person for 2.5 hours?
I will say that the social coordinator hit it off with the House ass't manager (who is now the manager), and they thought trying the no-tap again would be worth the effort, once school had re-started for the year. I told them I would be happy to organize it once they decided on a date. I'll let you know how that one works out. In the meantime . . . .
Success to everyone this coming season!!!
Viper/Joe
Left-handed
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
PAP 5 x 1/2 up
Tilt: 15*
Rot: 45*
Rev: 315
Speed: 15 at the camera
Re: Is Bowling an Entitlement
You did just about everything but offer to tie their shoes and roll the ball ...
Valiant effort.
There is an 8 lane center in the University I once worked at(hope it's still there). That's where I was cajoled into bowling and joining my first bowling league, "Lunch n' Bowl".
Shortening the story, I became Secretary and organizer. Demand increased and I added summer leagues, we added a Thursday set to our Tuesday set. A friendly but competitive league of folks that just bowled without being bowler's per se.
Shortly after Y2K, there was a massive paradigm shift in our department. People were let go, aggressive time tables were set, fear factor was present. Leagues ceased. The place was never the same.
Essentially, we went from a big family, to a group of survivors. Things settled down after a few years, but that family feeling never returned.
Years ago, there were several bowling shows on TV, from elite bowling, to game shows, but there was an exposure via the media. That is also gone.
The Show Cheers, had the line "a place where everybody knows your name". It's a good thing for center personnel to have good people skills and engage the people in the center.
Do one more thing to make the experience positive, find out their level of interest, see if that person throwing that ball might want to become a bowler some day.
Oops, that was longer than I meant it to be. But then that's just me.
Cheers.
Valiant effort.
There is an 8 lane center in the University I once worked at(hope it's still there). That's where I was cajoled into bowling and joining my first bowling league, "Lunch n' Bowl".
Shortening the story, I became Secretary and organizer. Demand increased and I added summer leagues, we added a Thursday set to our Tuesday set. A friendly but competitive league of folks that just bowled without being bowler's per se.
Shortly after Y2K, there was a massive paradigm shift in our department. People were let go, aggressive time tables were set, fear factor was present. Leagues ceased. The place was never the same.
Essentially, we went from a big family, to a group of survivors. Things settled down after a few years, but that family feeling never returned.
Years ago, there were several bowling shows on TV, from elite bowling, to game shows, but there was an exposure via the media. That is also gone.
The Show Cheers, had the line "a place where everybody knows your name". It's a good thing for center personnel to have good people skills and engage the people in the center.
Do one more thing to make the experience positive, find out their level of interest, see if that person throwing that ball might want to become a bowler some day.
Oops, that was longer than I meant it to be. But then that's just me.
Cheers.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.
John