For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

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krava
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For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by krava »

I am not sure which post I was requested this from so will start a new one.

Got 3 games filmed might need to do this more often for myself to see what I am doing wrong. I see several things wrong when I watched some of it. I was made at my uncle (person that filmed), stuffed myself with speghetti before I went and had very thin socks (shoes are too wide).

Took 5 hours to upload to youtube. each video was 1gb or so and 10k upload speed. Accuracy was bad and spare shooting was below normal for sure. Think I averaged 226 or so for the 3 games. The condition was a fresh THS shot that was bowled on by a 3 person team on each side using nothing but plastic balls. NO warm up shots no pratice shots (first shot was a split). 2nd shot missed a 10 pin which I never miss any more.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 1st game
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 2nd game
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 3rd game

4th game decided to try out modern style (this is the first game I have tried to throw that away, you can see the ball spin different sometimes and my balance was completely off as I am not used to that.) If it wasn't for the 2 easy missed spares I would had 220's though. I got to get to bed and didn't have more to say got to get to bowling alley tonight to bowl against real people.

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; My attempt at modern style (probably need 300+ more tries).


The silver level coach in Dallas returned my call apointment 3:30 on Wednesday so have to figure what to work on. Also only seen maybe 5 min of the videos total so not sure how they turned out.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by RobMautner »

I assume from the fact that you did not record during league, and there is music playing, that you were not bowling on fresh oil. 1st frame, game one, you go light, leaving a two ten split, playing the second arrow. 2nd game, 1st frame, your ball dives through the nose, still playing the second arrow. 3rd game, 1st frame, weak ten, second frame, weak seven. Guess what... still trying to play the second arrow. Before you try developing a new release, learn how to play the lanes. The world will NOT come to a screaming halt if you move away from the second arrow!
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by bowl1820 »

krava wrote: 4th game decided to try out modern style (this is the first game I have tried to throw that away, you can see the ball spin different sometimes and my balance was completely off as I am not used to that.)
Just a observation,
Comparing the 3rd & 4th games. The releases are not much if any different, 4th game you may have been a little more behind the ball. But basically the hand positions the same compared to the other games.

When you say your trying the "modern style" just what do you mean by that? what was it you felt or you were trying to do different compared to the previous games?


Comparison sample:
3-4gmhandpos.jpg
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by Bowlin4Beers »

I don't think modern release is what you think it is. The only slight change I see from your first three games is just going from the side of the ball to slightly behind. You need to work on staying behind the ball rather than on the side/top in addition to learning how to play more of the lane.

I know you've been harped on before but seriously - there's more than the second arrow.


Edit: You really gotta slow down too. Bad habits and bad muscle memory are just going to become harder and harder to break. In one of your previous posts you rushed three games into the span of like 20 minutes? That's fine for chucking house balls down the lane but you aren't going to make positive changes by cramming in as many games as possible when there are issues to fix with the physical game.

Muscle memory is a great thing but it can also be a very bad thing.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by TonyPR »

Thank you krava, I can see you are very serious about progressing. You know, you are not bad, your videos made me remember a few basic things that one sometimes might take for granted, this game is about accuracy and being able to repeat shots and the pins don't know who threw the ball and with what style. You have developed your own style and know how to repeat it(games 1-3). Yes there were a few bad/missed shots and yes there may be a few things you can work on but overall you are much better than many of the league bowlers I see. Instead of trying to develop a new style/modern release I would rather have you build on what you have now.

A few things I would work on in your physical game are: keeping your head over your left foot at release and maybe (if you can) keeping your balance leg on the approch and keeping that elbow in behind the ball at release and follow through. Losing some weight may help a lot, I know about this as I have to lose about 40 lbs myself and I still remember how good I felt without them about 3-4 years ago especially in my flexibility.

Your A game is obviously straight down 10 but like Rob says you need to learn to comfortably move in. Few things may help on this:
1) slowing down your ball speed a bit, especially if there is lots of oil inside, you are naturally a speed dominant player when it comes to revs vs speed and that is not good or bad, it's just who you are and slowing down will help your ball read the midlane with literally less effort, just think 66% instead of going all out like in your A game.
2) getting more axis rotation when moving in, think thumb up in follow through but keeping the elbow in so you don't chicken wing as this is easy to do when adding axis rotation. Foul line drills and one step drills focusing on your release will help.
3) having a simple yet correctly efficient arsenal, you don't need many balls but having a good match of balls/layouts/surface tailored to your specs/line you will play with the ball and lane conditions will be key. This is why getting accurate specs is a must and we here at Bowling Chat will help you make the correct ball/layout/surface choices according to this information.
4) use the three point targeting system with quiet eye. This will not only help you in playing deeper but will improve your strike shot accuracy in general.
5) try to find a league in which not many use plastic as their main ball as these will create carry down and make your breakpoint slick, yes you can move your break point but for now while you are learning to play deeper it's better not to have this variable.

Overall don't forget to have fun, you are not as bad as you think and you have the passion and dedication it takes to advance. Listen to the advice given here at Bowling Chat as it is always with the intention of helping people bowl better, don't get caught in the bowling ball manufacturer's marketing(you don't need as many balls as they want you to believe) and... don't forget... the bar will close in five minutes...
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by krava »

For Rob:
I probably need to use some equipment that has more grip to the lane. More Gritt when using the ball as the first ball on the lane. I used the storm match today. I tried to use the rocketship on the lanes but it wasn't gripping the lane. I tried to throw it between 2nd and 3rd and it slid all the way down hitting the 6 pin. With the storm match standing on 19 throwing down 8, I shot 227 the first game and had a clean game. I had an off ball or two I missed my arrow and didn't quite make it back or hit high and left a 10.

2nd game things fell apart. 3rd frame my ball slid and didn't make the pocket, 4th frame ball slid again and left a 5 count hitting the 6 pin again. I said this ball doesn't have any grip and that part of the lane is over with. (lots of hooking balls threw oil on my spot as alot of people were playing 2nd arrow and a little inside and I was going up 8). I wasn't quite sure where to start so I stood on 23 and threw over 10 with the rocketship and hit extremely high and left the big 4. In the 6th frame I had 80 which I haven't seen in a LONG time. 7th frame I moved a board left stood on 24 and threw accross 11 and out a little and then stuck all the way out and in 12th frame left a solid 10 and managed a 199. The ball rolled so well and good. I had a little wiggle room on both sides of the ball left and right. 3rd game I used the rocketship and moved even more inside ending up at 25 and 12 or so. I want my first balls to roll like the rocketship ones. The storm match ball roll is just so bad.

For Bowl1820
In the videos yes the release look the same. Here is the difference. games 1-3 ball is gripped on the side and I keep my wrist the same position the entire time through the swing. Modern style, The ball is held on the bottom, when the ball goes into the swing, the hand is behind the ball. As the ball comes down the the wrist is pulled toward the body so the elbow comes in and then at the moment of release the hand quickly flips over and the fingers exit the ball quickly. (the left part of the palm is forced upward coming down from the swing and then quickly flips. (the ball kinds of spins in middle of the swing.

I just saw the pictures you took. On 4th game 1st picture, the hand isn't turned correctly, thumb is on top of the ball not behind it and hand needs to be more twisted.Bascially the ball needs to be rotated clockwise more. (i probably turned the ball before it got to my leg in that picture).

For TonyPR:
I can move in if the lanes allow me to. I moved in today from 8 into 12. I have to work on head over left foot. I think if I did that I wouldn't be tilted?
I now bowl on monday nights. Bowled 227 first game with the match, 2nd game 199, 3rd game 191 Missed several spares I shouldn't have missed. I think I was trying to rush. Ball coming out to fast throwing it too fast trying to get out of people's way that was on the other sides. Also wasn't used to having to move so many times and my spot going from dry to slick. It will take me a few times to figure out what to do.
I can slow the ball down that isn't a problem. The problem is having the ball have any hitting power. I didn't think I threw the ball that fast? isn't it around 17mph or so?

will post another video Thursday of me playing deeper inside. I will bowl on lanes that didn't have plastic balls thrown on them.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by RobMautner »

While admittedly I did not watch every frame of every game, I did not see any shots where the ball was skidding, not gripping the lane. I did see lots of shots where that ball was burning up and losing energy. I think you really need to concentrate on learning the difference between balls that are skidding on carry down (while bowling after several hours of open play), and balls that are burning up.

Several years ago, I was bowling in a doubles league. One day we had a two game match against a team comprised of a very high average (around 230) lefty, and a right hander (a low 200 avg. bowler) who had some very strong (and wrong) opinions about bowling balls. I used an aggressive reactive ball on one lane, and a plastic spare ball for my strike shot on the other lane. About half way through the first game, the lefty, who was a good friend of mine, asked me why I was using two balls that were so different to play the lanes. I told him I'd tell him after the match. After the match, which we won very easily, he asked me again. I replied that since his partner could not tell the difference between carry down and burn, I figured I'd throw some confusion his way. Obviously, it worked as his partner never shot over 180 for those two games!
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by krava »

I remember you saying that before about the plastic ball and not telling him until it is over. The ball is probably burning up but how can you tell it is? None of the balls in the video are sliding down the lanes. I didn't get involved in any of that. I can tell when a very agressive ball burns up because then it starts to take off left and stops sliding. I can't tell what my match is doing most of the time. As long as the ball is "arc ing" then it is fine? I need to write that down for the silver level coach to tell me the difference between burning up etc.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by RobMautner »

The ball goes through five distinct phases as it goes down the lane, though your goal is to see only four of them. First the ball skids, then it hooks, then it stops hooking (hook out), then it rolls, and finally in rolls out. Hopefully you don't see the roll-out, unless you are planning to use it to tone down an overly aggressive ball. The ball is at maximum power at the start of the roll phase, so ideally it reaches that point just before entering the pins.

While I have to tread very lightly here, 95% of the time that you see the ball straighten out prematurely on a house shot, it's because of burn, not carry down. Even in a case where you come to the lanes after open bowling, the carry down that may be there from earlier use of plastic house balls will dissipate with each shot you throw with a reactive ball. Those streaks of oil that may be left over from earlier in the day are very light in oil volume, and your reactive ball will quickly absorb them. If you adjust for burn rather than carry down, you will be making the proper adjustment 95% of the time.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by TonyPR »

One neat thing I learned when switching to two hands was that I discovered that there is often plenty of oil in the middle of the lane. Having to deal with me having high revs forced me inside and I noticed I was often playing alone as most of the league bowlers I bowl with stay around second arrow.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by JohnP »

I agree with TonyPR, your game is pretty solid and can score well on THS conditions. If you want to move up to the next level, you've got to improve your release and learn to play further inside on the lane. I've given you a link to a slow motion video of Chris Barnes' release, because I think he's got one of the best. There are a lot more on YouTube for you to watch. Concentrate on what they do at the bottom of the swing, from the first wrist motion through the finger exit. I think you'll find they are all similar. Then slow the video on your smart phone down so you can see how your release compares. Also I want to challenge you to throw a few games targeting no further right than the third arrow. Don't worry about score, just try to learn what it takes to strike from that area. You'll probably have to use your strongest ball and slow down to get enough power to strike. -- JohnP

" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Added on edit: Take some sandpaper with you and modify the ball surface to make the ball read earlier. Don't be afraid of 400 or 500 grit surface to see what it will do, you can always change it back.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by ballspoint »

Would help if you wiped the oil off the ball after every shot.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by imagonman »

Study this video of the 'modern' release slowmotion....
" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Notice the fingers go from around 8 o'clock to 4-6 o'clock on the release. Also the the wrist goes from cocked to uncocked & slight cupped to collapsed as well.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by VLe »

RobMautner wrote:The ball goes through five distinct phases as it goes down the lane, though your goal is to see only four of them. First the ball skids, then it hooks, then it stops hooking (hook out), then it rolls, and finally in rolls out. Hopefully you don't see the roll-out
Sorry for a bit offtopic here but this one stood out and made me think whether it is correct. The ball has three phases of motion with two transitions. What exactly are you saying that there is happening in the ball dynamics after second transition when the ball is already in the roll phase?

Doesn't the term "roll-out" mean that the ball encounters friction too much, too early and burn it's energy way before it is ment to causing the ball to, well, roll-out. Not something that happens in the roll-phase

A quote from MathIsTruth: "Once the ball reaches the roll phase it will remain in the roll phase."

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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by TonyPR »

The ball will start to burn tilt and axis rotation in the hook phase and will enter a roll when these two are equal, it will continue to burn AR and tilt in the roll phase, when these get to zero the ball will hit like cotton candy, that's what we call roll out. Mo once said that because of this the laws of physics don't favor full rollers as they already begin with 0* of axis tilt.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by krava »

ballspoint wrote:Would help if you wiped the oil off the ball after every shot.

No need to wipe oil off the ball if there isn't any on it? I have a very good shammy pad I use if I see an oil ring. I didn't see any oil rings on the ball so didn't wipe it.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by Bowlin4Beers »

krava wrote:

No need to wipe oil off the ball if there isn't any on it? I have a very good shammy pad I use if I see an oil ring. I didn't see any oil rings on the ball so didn't wipe it.

I always wipe. It's part of my routine and you can't always see the oil. It removes dirt and grime too so it's a good habit to get into.
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Re: For TonyPR 3 games video + 1 modern attempt

Post by krava »

I will start doing that thanks.
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