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 Post subject: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 2:41 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I drill up my fair share of new marbles. I do this, as I primarily bowl tournaments and need equipment that is versatile. I also bowl more games than your typical house bowler. 40-60 a week is not unusual during tournament season. As a result, balls get beat up and need to be replaced. What I have been seeing lately however though is that today’s mega-powerful balls really seem to lack in reaction. They tend not to be very versatile for use on a bunch of different conditions and they are overly sensitive to drilling layouts, as well as surface adjustments. I am not going to single out any one company, as I have been seeing it from a few different ones. Also, another reason why I ask is technology going backwards, I just noticed another company coming out with a urethane ball. It wasn't that long ago that urethane balls were practically non-existent. Now they are back. Are they so old they are new again? I actually see many being thrown in tournaments. I just bowled one two weeks ago where not one but two wine u dots were being tossed. Both bowlers made the cut. So, is it just me or, do others think things might be heading the other way.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:23 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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coasterp wrote:
I drill up my fair share of new marbles. I do this, as I primarily bowl tournaments and need equipment that is versatile. I also bowl more games than your typical house bowler. 40-60 a week is not unusual during tournament season. As a result, balls get beat up and need to be replaced. What I have been seeing lately however though is that today’s mega-powerful balls really seem to lack in reaction. They tend not to be very versatile for use on a bunch of different conditions and they are overly sensitive to drilling layouts, as well as surface adjustments. I am not going to single out any one company, as I have been seeing it from a few different ones. Also, another reason why I ask is technology going backwards, I just noticed another company coming out with a urethane ball. It wasn't that long ago that urethane balls were practically non-existent. Now they are back. Are they so old they are new again? I actually see many being thrown in tournaments. I just bowled one two weeks ago where not one but two wine u dots were being tossed. Both bowlers made the cut. So, is it just me or, do others think things might be heading the other way.


I'm sorry, but I totally disagree with you and you do contradict yourself in your post. How can you say that a ball that is "overly" sensitive, to use your words, to layouts is not versatile? The ability to change ball reaction by adjusting the layout means the ball is more versatile. It will work for a wider variety of bowlers on a wider variety of conditions. The trend by some rev dominant towards urethane is a comment on the wet/dry house conditions that we bowl on today and mechanics who are afraid to put oil on the lanes because that would require them to pay attention to their pinsetters to make sure they get the balls back when there is oil on the lane. That statement is definitely not true of all mechanics. Today's balls are the most versatile in history. Knowledgeable, educated ball drillers are necessary to maximize the performance of these balls for a greater majority of the bowlers. Sounds like educating the ball drillers as to how to get the most out of the more versatile balls manufactured today will help. I believe education is one of the major goals of these forums. Just check the high degree of success that is met with in the recommendations requested in the "Mo and Friends" forum. That's just my position on the subject you brought up.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:03 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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I maybe should have been a little clearer. I have had some drillers comment to me that they are not always sure what to expect when drilling. They drill a ball for a specific reaction and don't end up with quite what was expected. These are from drillers that I highly respect and I feel confident they know what they are doing. These are also the same people that only a couple of years ago would be spot on when I asked for a certain reaction out of a ball. This has not been the case a couple of times lately. In speaking with other bowlers using different shops, they have also made the same observation. I grew up in the urethane era where once you popped a ball off the press and took it out to the lane, you had a good idea of what to expect. This applies to when the balls started getting more than just pancake blocks, so I tend to think it's the cover/core matches that are creating the complexities in drilling and layout choice. Balls often tend to be condition specific is also what I meant by not versatile. As for the mechanic putting more on the lane, this is not an easy task. I say this because a good friend of mine is a manager at a center and is METICULOUS about how his lanes/pin setters are maintained. I have spoken with him many times about the subject of keeping everyone happy. When you have a bowler using the latest hook monster just off the press next to the guy still using his mega-hook ball from 4 years ago, you just can't satisfy everyone. One ball will hook too much and the other not enough. I am not placing blame on anyone for this, as it is just part of our modern times.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:44 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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coasterp wrote:
I maybe should have been a little clearer. I have had some drillers comment to me that they are not always sure what to expect when drilling. They drill a ball for a specific reaction and don't end up with quite what was expected. These are from drillers that I highly respect and I feel confident they know what they are doing. These are also the same people that only a couple of years ago would be spot on when I asked for a certain reaction out of a ball. This has not been the case a couple of times lately. In speaking with other bowlers using different shops, they have also made the same observation. I grew up in the urethane era where once you popped a ball off the press and took it out to the lane, you had a good idea of what to expect. This applies to when the balls started getting more than just pancake blocks, so I tend to think it's the cover/core matches that are creating the complexities in drilling and layout choice. Balls often tend to be condition specific is also what I meant by not versatile. As for the mechanic putting more on the lane, this is not an easy task. I say this because a good friend of mine is a manager at a center and is METICULOUS about how his lanes/pin setters are maintained. I have spoken with him many times about the subject of keeping everyone happy. When you have a bowler using the latest hook monster just off the press next to the guy still using his mega-hook ball from 4 years ago, you just can't satisfy everyone. One ball will hook too much and the other not enough. I am not placing blame on anyone for this, as it is just part of our modern times.


Good comments! You are talking about the reality of today. We meet with an enormous amount of success with the layouts we recommend. Using the bowler's delivery specs to come up with a benchmark layout definitely increases the probability of success. A ball driller needs to know what we request on "Mo and Friends/Ball and Layout Advice", the ball's real characteristics, and the condition on which it's being used.
There are complicating issues because of some of the marketing coming from some of the ball companies. The balls don't do what the companies say they do too often. I can't even keep track of all the balls that are released. Keeping up with new releases is not easy for ball drillers. Education still looks like the key.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:34 am Post Number: #5 Post
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Mo,

Could not agree with you more on a few fronts. First, my drillers pull thier hair out with all the new releases. They can't keep up with them either. Then, as you indicated, balls don't always react as advertised and you have a formula for an unhappy customer. I just drilled what is one companies new hook monster. My drillers were very eager to see how it reacted, as they trust my feedback. I was not impressed with the ball. It was drilled with a very basic layout. One I would not call condition specific. While this ball was advertised as a heavy oil ball, I felt it was best suited for medium conditions OOB. On the other side of the coin, I have just drilled up another ball from another company. This company advertises the ball for light to medium oil. OOB, I have found this ball to be well suited for heavier oil. There are many others who agree with me on this ball, based on reviews I have read. Makes you pull your hair out sometimes.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 12:37 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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coasterp wrote:
Mo,

Could not agree with you more on a few fronts. First, my drillers pull thier hair out with all the new releases. They can't keep up with them either. Then, as you indicated, balls don't always react as advertised and you have a formula for an unhappy customer. I just drilled what is one companies new hook monster. My drillers were very eager to see how it reacted, as they trust my feedback. I was not impressed with the ball. It was drilled with a very basic layout. One I would not call condition specific. While this ball was advertised as a heavy oil ball, I felt it was best suited for medium conditions OOB. On the other side of the coin, I have just drilled up another ball from another company. This company advertises the ball for light to medium oil. OOB, I have found this ball to be well suited for heavier oil. There are many others who agree with me on this ball, based on reviews I have read. Makes you pull your hair out sometimes.


Here a guideline on hook. Since coverstock is the #1 factor in the amount of hook, I have only run into what I call "super" covers from certain companies. "Super" covers are the covers have have surface roughness and oil absorption levels that generate enormous amounts of hook. The companies that have "super" covers available to them are:

Storm/Roto Grip
Brunswick/MoRich
900 Global

That doesn't mean that these companies only use their "super" covers. They all have normal covers available to them, also. If you're looking for heavy oil balls that really hook, I'd stick to those companies for that purpose. Just my findings.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:11 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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To add Visionary's new ball Spartan (Oct 1) is said by Jason Wonders to have a super soaker type cover.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:16 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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scotts33 wrote:
To add Visionary's new ball Spartan (Oct 1) is said by Jason Wonders to have a super soaker type cover.


Haven't come across that ball, yet, so I can't comment. Might be true, but I only commented on what I've observed.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:59 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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I like the "super" covers term. I actually think they contribute a great amount to what I am seeing. My latest observations show me covers have become very good at skiding through oil and then make a very quick response to friction, in my opinion too quick. Covers used to blend this out a little more. Now, I also know oils have been changing in an effort to combat the new balls and protect the lanes. The funny thing is, I have started drilling balls that are still new but from a release 3-4 years ago. I still find these balls blend the condition very well, compared to the newer stuff. They also are more versatile in handling changing lanes. Just bowled an event this weekend. Used the same ball start to finish in qualifying. Its not a ball currently listed on this manufacturers site. However, I did just notice one of the balls listed on the site sitting on the used rack at my drillers shop and it is one that would have a super cover. The ball I threw would have been a mega-hook ball when released.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:09 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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Quote:
My latest observations show me covers have become very good at skiding through oil and then make a very quick response to friction, in my opinion too quick. Covers used to blend this out a little more.


I tend to use a duller surfaces 1000 ab or 2000 ab to blend out the movement when it hits friction.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:26 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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coasterp wrote:
I like the "super" covers term. I actually think they contribute a great amount to what I am seeing. My latest observations show me covers have become very good at skiding through oil and then make a very quick response to friction, in my opinion too quick. Covers used to blend this out a little more. Now, I also know oils have been changing in an effort to combat the new balls and protect the lanes. The funny thing is, I have started drilling balls that are still new but from a release 3-4 years ago. I still find these balls blend the condition very well, compared to the newer stuff. They also are more versatile in handling changing lanes. Just bowled an event this weekend. Used the same ball start to finish in qualifying. Its not a ball currently listed on this manufacturers site. However, I did just notice one of the balls listed on the site sitting on the used rack at my drillers shop and it is one that would have a super cover. The ball I threw would have been a mega-hook ball when released.


Effective use of drilling techniques by knowledgeable ball drillers is the best answer to the reaction problems that you mention.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:10 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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I have been trying some new layouts. Ones that do give me totally different looks than balls I have drilled in the past. My problem takes me back to what I said initially, in that the balls now tend to be condition specific. As someone who is hauling around 8 balls and has to have something that works for whatever unknown condition I'm facing that weekend, any ball that is condition specific, is not something I want in my bag. I need balls that respond to hand/release/speed/axis tilt, ect.. changes, as opposed to a ball that gives me the nut for a game and then nothing on the next pair because the guys in front of me broke it down different. This has happend quite often. Not uncommon to go 240 followed by a grind out 170 while you search for the right reaction. I'd rather shoot 220ish followed by two 0 something. Maybe I don't have the perfect reaction but I have something to work with.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 4:57 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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coasterp wrote:
I have been trying some new layouts. Ones that do give me totally different looks than balls I have drilled in the past. My problem takes me back to what I said initially, in that the balls now tend to be condition specific. As someone who is hauling around 8 balls and has to have something that works for whatever unknown condition I'm facing that weekend, any ball that is condition specific, is not something I want in my bag. I need balls that respond to hand/release/speed/axis tilt, ect.. changes, as opposed to a ball that gives me the nut for a game and then nothing on the next pair because the guys in front of me broke it down different. This has happend quite often. Not uncommon to go 240 followed by a grind out 170 while you search for the right reaction. I'd rather shoot 220ish followed by two 0 something. Maybe I don't have the perfect reaction but I have something to work with.


Please post your delivery specs. Let's see what your benchmark layout looks like.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:21 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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I have never been analyzed to find out. Not something I really worried about in the past, as I very release so much I'm not even sure if I was measured, that the results are in fact true. They would probably be more a result of the current lane condition. As for layout, I usually used 2-3 pins with 2-3 ounce top. Pins were up above, or slightly to right of ring around 1.5" - 2" with cg straight down. weight holes as needed to make legal. This simple layout has served me very well. Basically it lets me manipulate the ball reaction quite a bit. It does however require a good cover/core combination that works well together. It's not until last year that I have come across balls that it really is not working well with. As a result, I have tried some pin down balls and placing the cg in some different spots. All this resulted in noticeable reaction changes. However, as I stated previously, the balls often ended up being condition specific. One additional thing I have been toying with is very long pins, 5"+. I have one ball drilled this way and have found it to be very forgiving on a variety of patterns. Pin is again, up above ring with cg just to the right of the thumb. What’s your feeling on extreme pins like this with a super aggressive ball?


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:55 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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coasterp wrote:
I have never been analyzed to find out. Not something I really worried about in the past, as I very release so much I'm not even sure if I was measured, that the results are in fact true. They would probably be more a result of the current lane condition. As for layout, I usually used 2-3 pins with 2-3 ounce top. Pins were up above, or slightly to right of ring around 1.5" - 2" with cg straight down. weight holes as needed to make legal. This simple layout has served me very well. Basically it lets me manipulate the ball reaction quite a bit. It does however require a good cover/core combination that works well together. It's not until last year that I have come across balls that it really is not working well with. As a result, I have tried some pin down balls and placing the cg in some different spots. All this resulted in noticeable reaction changes. However, as I stated previously, the balls often ended up being condition specific. One additional thing I have been toying with is very long pins, 5"+. I have one ball drilled this way and have found it to be very forgiving on a variety of patterns. Pin is again, up above ring with cg just to the right of the thumb. What’s your feeling on extreme pins like this with a super aggressive ball?


I'd like to help, but I can't work with what your saying. I'd like to know your delivery specs. and the exact layouts you have in Dual Angle/Gradient Line terminology. I need that to be helpful. A video of you bowling would also help. Other than that, this becomes hand grenades at 20 paces. I hope to see what's happening. I need data to be effective.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:54 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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I'll get some layout info tonight, as I am picking up the urethane ball I spoke of earlier. As for me bowling, this is the best I have:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ha9Ib32GI


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:16 am Post Number: #17 Post
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Hiya Mo!

Justin from Rochester, NY.

Coasterp came in tonight to have his gear measured up, and spoke of this thread. The following are his specs...

Tilt: 10*
Axis: 4.75" over, 1.3125" up.
Speed: 15.5MPH
Rev rate: Variable based on release, average of 350

His Current balls:

Pure Physics
50x4 5/8"x40 P1 Hole

Emerald Vibe:
40x4 7/8"x30 No hole

Avalanche Urethane:
65x3 5/8"x45 No Hole

Oracle:
90x1.125"x40 No Hole

Track Inertia(undrilled, I laid it out tonight):
70x4 5/8"x80 I'll place the hole to tune once he throws it.


I haven't worked with his layouts until this Inertia.




Glad to see your success with this site guys, more people need to be educated on how to appropriately deal with the current level of technology. Drill sheets just don't cut it anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:29 am Post Number: #18 Post
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coasterp wrote:
I'll get some layout info tonight, as I am picking up the urethane ball I spoke of earlier. As for me bowling, this is the best I have:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76ha9Ib32GI


I see two things that can be changed to help your problem.

1) You're staying in the ball too long. Hitting up on the ball. We want to get out of the ball tangent to the lane, not on the up.

2) You can use some more body momentum during your approach to get the ball down the lane easier. This can be done by employing the shift/bowl technique and changing the step cadence. The step cadence I would like to see is shift, hinge, quick, quick, slide. Your steps are too methodical and even.

3) One more thing. Hold the ball closer to your body in the stance to decrease grip pressure. That will improve the flow and make it easier to get the ball down the lane.

If you still don't get the ball down smoother, we'll do a small grip change to get the ball off your hand smoother.

Let me know how the suggestions work. These changes will produce a more modern game to work on today's condition. Flow and tempo are the keys.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 12:33 am Post Number: #19 Post
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JustinWi wrote:
Hiya Mo!

Justin from Rochester, NY.

Coasterp came in tonight to have his gear measured up, and spoke of this thread. The following are his specs...

Tilt: 10*
Axis: 4.75" over, 1.3125" up.
Speed: 15.5MPH
Rev rate: Variable based on release, average of 350

His Current balls:

Pure Physics
50x4 5/8"x40 P1 Hole

Emerald Vibe:
40x4 7/8"x30 No hole

Avalanche Urethane:
65x3 5/8"x45 No Hole

Oracle:
90x1.125"x40 No Hole

Track Inertia(undrilled, I laid it out tonight):
70x4 5/8"x80 I'll place the hole to tune once he throws it.


I haven't worked with his layouts until this Inertia.




Glad to see your success with this site guys, more people need to be educated on how to appropriately deal with the current level of technology. Drill sheets just don't cut it anymore.


Thanks, Justin. Good to have your help. I'll digest this and post my thoughts. Probably Thurs. Please don't exceed 70* for the VAL angle on the Inertia.

Screw it! I'll say his I like 130* as his sweet spot + 20*

With what he's bitching about, I'd drill a symmetrical 80 / 5 / 70. I little less flare than you planned.


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 Post subject: Re: Is ball technology going backwards?
 Posted: Wed Sep 29, 2010 1:21 am Post Number: #20 Post
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Be easy on me. I'm sensitive. As for the game changes, I'll do another video. I have changed not only grip but weight since that was shot. Also, getting back to what I said previously, what you see going on there works well for that conditon. It's a house shot that I can free wheel on. I'll do a video trying to show different timing and releases with out worrying about making a ball look good. Should be a day or two.


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