Pin under ball

You can post any bowling related topics here.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
LPOliver
Member
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: August 23rd, 2011, 6:04 pm
Speed: Hand to arrows 15.3-15.7
Rev Rate: 217
Axis Tilt: 17.5
Axis Rotation: 62.5
Preferred Company: Storm

Pin under ball

Post by LPOliver » November 28th, 2014, 11:15 pm

I would like some suggestions for a ball, hopefully based upon experience.
I have a Red & Silver Wisdom, drilled pin under with the pin, that hits like an old Mack truck under the right conditions. The pin is 0.25" below the ring finger and midway between the grip center line and a parallel line through the ring finger, CG which is 3" off the pin, is not stacked, it is an additional inch out. I fell in love with this ball and the way it behaves, the pin under drilling gives me better control and it always hits hard.

So, what is my issue? On fresh oil it slides too far before it sets up and enters a roll. So, what I am looking for is a ball that has a more aggressive cover than the S65 pearl cover on the Wisdom that will read earlier. I have also wondered if a lower RG, in the 2.52 range or perhaps a higher Diff around 0.045 would benefit. The Wisdom's core is RG 2.57 with a Diff of 0.035.
Looking forward to your thoughts, I'll check back Sunday night, thanks for your feedback.

User avatar
halfaclue
Member
Member
Posts: 343
Joined: January 26th, 2011, 2:55 am
THS Average: 212
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4 x 1/8 up
Speed: 19 off hand
Rev Rate: 405
Axis Tilt: 18
Axis Rotation: 65*
Heavy Oil Ball: REAX Version 2
Medium Oil Ball: Yeti Untamed
Light Oil Ball: Grease monkey
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Wake Forest, NC

Re: Pin under ball

Post by halfaclue » November 29th, 2014, 1:57 pm

You could go with something pin up, basically same layout but pin above the fingers. It will respond to friction a little quicker. If you don't wish to do this, then go with something asym in the S70 cover.
Dan

Ball speed: 19 mph (off hand)
Tilt: 18*
Rotation: 55*

JohnP
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 3432
Joined: January 31st, 2010, 1:04 am
Positive Axis Point: 15 15/16 x 3/16
Speed: 13.5 (Qubica)
Axis Tilt: 13
Axis Rotation: 45
Location: Hawesville KY/Tell City IN

Re: Pin under ball

Post by JohnP » November 29th, 2014, 11:08 pm

Radical Guru, pick the layout to fit your game from Mo's asymmetrical suggestions, link below. -- JohnP

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10422" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edit: Also read through the thread linked below.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10344&view=unread#unread" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

LPOliver
Member
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: August 23rd, 2011, 6:04 pm
Speed: Hand to arrows 15.3-15.7
Rev Rate: 217
Axis Tilt: 17.5
Axis Rotation: 62.5
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Pin under ball

Post by LPOliver » November 30th, 2014, 7:45 pm

halfaclue wrote:You could go with something pin up, basically same layout but pin above the fingers. It will respond to friction a little quicker. If you don't wish to do this, then go with something asym in the S70 cover.
I always thought that pin up went further than pin down before going into a roll. So, I have to ask, why do you think that the pin up would respond faster? Or are you thinking about a snappier back end? I do not like to swing the ball more than a few boards. I like to play a straighter line and I should have said that in my post.

Thanks for your reply, I will be looking forward to your clarification.

LPOliver
Member
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: August 23rd, 2011, 6:04 pm
Speed: Hand to arrows 15.3-15.7
Rev Rate: 217
Axis Tilt: 17.5
Axis Rotation: 62.5
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Pin under ball

Post by LPOliver » November 30th, 2014, 8:07 pm

JohnP wrote:Radical Guru, pick the layout to fit your game from Mo's asymmetrical suggestions, link below. -- JohnP

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10422" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Edit: Also read through the thread linked below.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10344&view=unread#unread" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Hi John,

The video was very interesting and the remarks about the cover finish in the comments reflect my thoughts as well. The mfg selected the finish for a reason. As to the drilling, I leave that to my driller, however while he gets several promotional balls from some of the companies, he does not get to see all the balls from all the mfgs.

That I was really looking for was a response from some one who uses a Red/Sil Wisdom and see what they use when the oil is a little too much for the Wisdom and hopefully it would be a ball that is still on the market.

Thank you for your time, the info was informative.

User avatar
Mo Pinel
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 10054
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT

Re: Pin under ball

Post by Mo Pinel » December 2nd, 2014, 2:50 am

LPOliver wrote: I always thought that pin up went further than pin down before going into a roll. So, I have to ask, why do you think that the pin up would respond faster? Or are you thinking about a snappier back end? I do not like to swing the ball more than a few boards. I like to play a straighter line and I should have said that in my post.

Thanks for your reply, I will be looking forward to your clarification.
Given the same pin to PAP distance, the pin up ball will respond quicker to the friction. Your old info is flawed.

User avatar
halfaclue
Member
Member
Posts: 343
Joined: January 26th, 2011, 2:55 am
THS Average: 212
Positive Axis Point: 4 3/4 x 1/8 up
Speed: 19 off hand
Rev Rate: 405
Axis Tilt: 18
Axis Rotation: 65*
Heavy Oil Ball: REAX Version 2
Medium Oil Ball: Yeti Untamed
Light Oil Ball: Grease monkey
Preferred Company: Radical Bowling Technologies
Location: Wake Forest, NC

Re: Pin under ball

Post by halfaclue » December 4th, 2014, 2:44 am

I say the pin up layout will be quicker to respond because the VAL angle will be lower, therefore shorter hook zone. Also, I have drilled and used close to 60 balls over the last 18 months with various layouts for testing purposes. The testing covered different covers, cores, layouts and flare potentials.

You requested to have an in product ball, or I would strongly recommend a GURU. The Pin down GURU would have more overall hook than your current. If you were, like suggested earlier, to use the appropriate layout for your bowler type the GURU would suit your needs for any amount of hook or oil.
Dan

Ball speed: 19 mph (off hand)
Tilt: 18*
Rotation: 55*

LPOliver
Member
Member
Posts: 64
Joined: August 23rd, 2011, 6:04 pm
Speed: Hand to arrows 15.3-15.7
Rev Rate: 217
Axis Tilt: 17.5
Axis Rotation: 62.5
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Pin under ball

Post by LPOliver » December 9th, 2014, 9:37 pm

halfaclue wrote:I say the pin up layout will be quicker to respond because the VAL angle will be lower, therefore shorter hook zone. Also, I have drilled and used close to 60 balls over the last 18 months with various layouts for testing purposes. The testing covered different covers, cores, layouts and flare potentials.

You requested to have an in product ball, or I would strongly recommend a GURU. The Pin down GURU would have more overall hook than your current. If you were, like suggested earlier, to use the appropriate layout for your bowler type the GURU would suit your needs for any amount of hook or oil.
Thanks, your reply was better than Mo's, you indicated the reason for the quicker response.

User avatar
Mo Pinel
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 10054
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT

Re: Pin under ball

Post by Mo Pinel » December 10th, 2014, 12:35 pm

LPOliver wrote: Thanks, your reply was better than Mo's, you indicated the reason for the quicker response.
IYHO

larim
Member
Member
Posts: 25
Joined: February 15th, 2010, 12:49 pm
Positive Axis Point: 4.75" over 1/8 up
Speed: 17.5
Rev Rate: 375
Axis Tilt: 17
Preferred Company: Radical

Re: Pin under ball

Post by larim » December 10th, 2014, 5:02 pm

If either Dan and/or Mo are responding.... there is always value to be found.

Rory
Radical BT Staffer
former PBA Regional Laneman
former Research Engineer at USBC

The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Corporation

56bird
Member
Member
Posts: 479
Joined: April 18th, 2013, 11:55 am

Re: Pin under ball

Post by 56bird » December 10th, 2014, 11:50 pm

I've always had trouble with the terms "early" "late" "quicker response to friction" "slower response to friction". I guess it's just that some people use one term but mean another.

To me, a ball that is "early" or "late" (as was said earlier, "went further") refers to the length of the skid phase.

"Response time to friction" refers to the length of the hook phase. I find a ball with slower response time to friction to be more predictable, but sometimes will give me trouble carrying the corners. Quicker response to friction will get me in more trouble if I roll it a little slow or catch it a little extra at the bottom, but has more "pop" to carry the corners. It's all a trade-off.

I'm probably all alone on this, but "continuous" to ME refers to "length of the roll phase" or more accurately, "resistance to roll-out".

You could have a ball that reads early (primarily due to surface/cover, maybe secondarily due to RG) but also has a "slower response time to friction" (longer hook zone, i.e. pin-down. Conversely, you could have a ball that goes long, but has a quick response time to friction (I think I just described "skid-flippy").

I don't really get what makes one ball more "continuous" than another but suspect it has something to do with gyroscopic properties of the drilled ball combined with just being matched up right. At my level of participation the "whys" aren't so important. A ball is, or isn't continuous.

User avatar
Mo Pinel
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 10054
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT

Re: Pin under ball

Post by Mo Pinel » December 20th, 2014, 2:29 pm

LPOliver wrote: Thanks, your reply was better than Mo's, you indicated the reason for the quicker response.
You have been given plenty of info on the difference between pin up and pin down layouts. Do your own research! At Radical, we developed the "finger scoop" to enhance the difference between the two layouts.

User avatar
Xeroqualms
Member
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: January 23rd, 2013, 5:54 pm
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Pin under ball

Post by Xeroqualms » December 22nd, 2014, 10:29 pm

I saw this thread and I thought it'd try adding on to it, seeing as how it's discussing the differences of "pin up vs pin down".

Mo, I've been working very closely with Rich Huzina out of Calgary. He's helped me learn Dual Angle and I am definitely much better for it now.

However I've always wondered this specifically.Pin up = Low VAL = quicker response. Easy peasy.
Pin down = High VAL = slow response. Got it.

Now my question is this. Does a higher VAL angle, aka slower response, still result in the ball starting a touch EARLIER than a low VAL angle? The way it was explained to me was to sort of imagine rolling a ball backwards on the lane. it will slowly spin backwards, eventually stop, and continuing rolling forward again. That was the analogy given of what the core is doing inside a ball with a "pin down" layout.

Any truth to that? Or do High Val/Low val layouts start their hook phase at the same time?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.

User avatar
Mo Pinel
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 10054
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT

Re: Pin under ball

Post by Mo Pinel » December 22nd, 2014, 11:08 pm

Xeroqualms wrote:I saw this thread and I thought it'd try adding on to it, seeing as how it's discussing the differences of "pin up vs pin down".

Mo, I've been working very closely with Rich Huzina out of Calgary. He's helped me learn Dual Angle and I am definitely much better for it now.

However I've always wondered this specifically.Pin up = Low VAL = quicker response. Easy peasy.
Pin down = High VAL = slow response. Got it.

Now my question is this. Does a higher VAL angle, aka slower response, still result in the ball starting a touch EARLIER than a low VAL angle? The way it was explained to me was to sort of imagine rolling a ball backwards on the lane. it will slowly spin backwards, eventually stop, and continuing rolling forward again. That was the analogy given of what the core is doing inside a ball with a "pin down" layout.

Any truth to that? Or do High Val/Low val layouts start their hook phase at the same time?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.
Rich knows his stuff. The pin up vs pin down (smaller vs. larger VAL angle) does not effect the first transition (skid to hook). It only effects the length of the hook zone.

User avatar
Xeroqualms
Member
Member
Posts: 42
Joined: January 23rd, 2013, 5:54 pm
Preferred Company: Storm

Re: Pin under ball

Post by Xeroqualms » December 22nd, 2014, 11:32 pm

He certainly does, he has helped me immensely.

Thanks for answering that Mo.

+1 for Science.

User avatar
Pulsetech
Member
Member
Posts: 213
Joined: May 1st, 2014, 4:45 am
THS Average: 222
Positive Axis Point: 5 over 1/2 up
Speed: 18
Rev Rate: 500
Axis Tilt: 12
Axis Rotation: 45
Heavy Oil Ball: Guru
Medium Oil Ball: Score
Light Oil Ball: Grease Monkey
Preferred Company: Storm /Radical
Location: Melbourne Australia

Re: Pin under ball

Post by Pulsetech » December 23rd, 2014, 9:34 am

Would I be correct in saying the first transition is more about pin to pap ?
Greg Robertson.

Right Handed
New stats as of 10/3/16
18 MPH at the line
Rev Rate 500
Axis Rotation 40 - 90
Axis Tilt - 14
PAP - 5" over, 1/2 up

User avatar
Mo Pinel
Trusted Source
Trusted Source
Posts: 10054
Joined: January 26th, 2010, 6:10 pm
Preferred Company: MoRich, & now RADICAL BT

Re: Pin under ball

Post by Mo Pinel » December 23rd, 2014, 11:54 am

Pulsetech wrote:Would I be correct in saying the first transition is more about pin to pap ?
The first transition (skid to hook) is related to flare (pin to PAP distance) and the drilling angle. It's all in the Wiki under Dual Angle Layouts.

User avatar
river800
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 1056
Joined: November 19th, 2010, 12:11 am
THS Average: 202
Preferred Company: Storm/radical
Location: Coeur D A'lene, ID

Re: Pin under ball

Post by river800 » December 23rd, 2014, 10:08 pm

Xeroqualms wrote:I saw this thread and I thought it'd try adding on to it, seeing as how it's discussing the differences of "pin up vs pin down".

Mo, I've been working very closely with Rich Huzina out of Calgary. He's helped me learn Dual Angle and I am definitely much better for it now.

However I've always wondered this specifically.Pin up = Low VAL = quicker response. Easy peasy.
Pin down = High VAL = slow response. Got it.

Now my question is this. Does a higher VAL angle, aka slower response, still result in the ball starting a touch EARLIER than a low VAL angle? The way it was explained to me was to sort of imagine rolling a ball backwards on the lane. it will slowly spin backwards, eventually stop, and continuing rolling forward again. That was the analogy given of what the core is doing inside a ball with a "pin down" layout.

Any truth to that? Or do High Val/Low val layouts start their hook phase at the same time?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.
Why soo many think that a pin up layout on a ball goes longer is because all they see is more backend. But what they do not understand like Mo said is what is happening during the second transition or hook phase. Bot balls with the same surface could have the same length technically just one with a longer hook phase compared to the other. I am thinking that people simply do NOT know how to read a ball's reaction on the lanes.
Stats:
Right handed
Pap is 4 3/4 x 3/8 up currently
Speed around 16.5 off hand
Tilt in the 14-16* range
Rev rate: around 325 - 350 or so
Axis rotation in the 25-70* range
I bowl on Brunswick synthetics. Ths...

Post Reply