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 Post subject: Pin under ball
 Posted: Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:15 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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I would like some suggestions for a ball, hopefully based upon experience.
I have a Red & Silver Wisdom, drilled pin under with the pin, that hits like an old Mack truck under the right conditions. The pin is 0.25" below the ring finger and midway between the grip center line and a parallel line through the ring finger, CG which is 3" off the pin, is not stacked, it is an additional inch out. I fell in love with this ball and the way it behaves, the pin under drilling gives me better control and it always hits hard.

So, what is my issue? On fresh oil it slides too far before it sets up and enters a roll. So, what I am looking for is a ball that has a more aggressive cover than the S65 pearl cover on the Wisdom that will read earlier. I have also wondered if a lower RG, in the 2.52 range or perhaps a higher Diff around 0.045 would benefit. The Wisdom's core is RG 2.57 with a Diff of 0.035.
Looking forward to your thoughts, I'll check back Sunday night, thanks for your feedback.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 1:57 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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You could go with something pin up, basically same layout but pin above the fingers. It will respond to friction a little quicker. If you don't wish to do this, then go with something asym in the S70 cover.

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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Sat Nov 29, 2014 11:08 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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Radical Guru, pick the layout to fit your game from Mo's asymmetrical suggestions, link below. -- JohnP

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10422

Edit: Also read through the thread linked below.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10344&view=unread#unread


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 7:45 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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halfaclue wrote:
You could go with something pin up, basically same layout but pin above the fingers. It will respond to friction a little quicker. If you don't wish to do this, then go with something asym in the S70 cover.


I always thought that pin up went further than pin down before going into a roll. So, I have to ask, why do you think that the pin up would respond faster? Or are you thinking about a snappier back end? I do not like to swing the ball more than a few boards. I like to play a straighter line and I should have said that in my post.

Thanks for your reply, I will be looking forward to your clarification.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Sun Nov 30, 2014 8:07 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Radical Guru, pick the layout to fit your game from Mo's asymmetrical suggestions, link below. -- JohnP

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10422

Edit: Also read through the thread linked below.

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=10344&view=unread#unread


Hi John,

The video was very interesting and the remarks about the cover finish in the comments reflect my thoughts as well. The mfg selected the finish for a reason. As to the drilling, I leave that to my driller, however while he gets several promotional balls from some of the companies, he does not get to see all the balls from all the mfgs.

That I was really looking for was a response from some one who uses a Red/Sil Wisdom and see what they use when the oil is a little too much for the Wisdom and hopefully it would be a ball that is still on the market.

Thank you for your time, the info was informative.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Tue Dec 02, 2014 2:50 am Post Number: #6 Post
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LPOliver wrote:
halfaclue wrote:
You could go with something pin up, basically same layout but pin above the fingers. It will respond to friction a little quicker. If you don't wish to do this, then go with something asym in the S70 cover.


I always thought that pin up went further than pin down before going into a roll. So, I have to ask, why do you think that the pin up would respond faster? Or are you thinking about a snappier back end? I do not like to swing the ball more than a few boards. I like to play a straighter line and I should have said that in my post.

Thanks for your reply, I will be looking forward to your clarification.


Given the same pin to PAP distance, the pin up ball will respond quicker to the friction. Your old info is flawed.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Thu Dec 04, 2014 2:44 am Post Number: #7 Post
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I say the pin up layout will be quicker to respond because the VAL angle will be lower, therefore shorter hook zone. Also, I have drilled and used close to 60 balls over the last 18 months with various layouts for testing purposes. The testing covered different covers, cores, layouts and flare potentials.

You requested to have an in product ball, or I would strongly recommend a GURU. The Pin down GURU would have more overall hook than your current. If you were, like suggested earlier, to use the appropriate layout for your bowler type the GURU would suit your needs for any amount of hook or oil.

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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Tue Dec 09, 2014 9:37 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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halfaclue wrote:
I say the pin up layout will be quicker to respond because the VAL angle will be lower, therefore shorter hook zone. Also, I have drilled and used close to 60 balls over the last 18 months with various layouts for testing purposes. The testing covered different covers, cores, layouts and flare potentials.

You requested to have an in product ball, or I would strongly recommend a GURU. The Pin down GURU would have more overall hook than your current. If you were, like suggested earlier, to use the appropriate layout for your bowler type the GURU would suit your needs for any amount of hook or oil.


Thanks, your reply was better than Mo's, you indicated the reason for the quicker response.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 12:35 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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LPOliver wrote:
halfaclue wrote:
I say the pin up layout will be quicker to respond because the VAL angle will be lower, therefore shorter hook zone. Also, I have drilled and used close to 60 balls over the last 18 months with various layouts for testing purposes. The testing covered different covers, cores, layouts and flare potentials.

You requested to have an in product ball, or I would strongly recommend a GURU. The Pin down GURU would have more overall hook than your current. If you were, like suggested earlier, to use the appropriate layout for your bowler type the GURU would suit your needs for any amount of hook or oil.


Thanks, your reply was better than Mo's, you indicated the reason for the quicker response.


IYHO


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 5:02 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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If either Dan and/or Mo are responding.... there is always value to be found.

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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Wed Dec 10, 2014 11:50 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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I've always had trouble with the terms "early" "late" "quicker response to friction" "slower response to friction". I guess it's just that some people use one term but mean another.

To me, a ball that is "early" or "late" (as was said earlier, "went further") refers to the length of the skid phase.

"Response time to friction" refers to the length of the hook phase. I find a ball with slower response time to friction to be more predictable, but sometimes will give me trouble carrying the corners. Quicker response to friction will get me in more trouble if I roll it a little slow or catch it a little extra at the bottom, but has more "pop" to carry the corners. It's all a trade-off.

I'm probably all alone on this, but "continuous" to ME refers to "length of the roll phase" or more accurately, "resistance to roll-out".

You could have a ball that reads early (primarily due to surface/cover, maybe secondarily due to RG) but also has a "slower response time to friction" (longer hook zone, i.e. pin-down. Conversely, you could have a ball that goes long, but has a quick response time to friction (I think I just described "skid-flippy").

I don't really get what makes one ball more "continuous" than another but suspect it has something to do with gyroscopic properties of the drilled ball combined with just being matched up right. At my level of participation the "whys" aren't so important. A ball is, or isn't continuous.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Sat Dec 20, 2014 2:29 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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LPOliver wrote:
halfaclue wrote:
I say the pin up layout will be quicker to respond because the VAL angle will be lower, therefore shorter hook zone. Also, I have drilled and used close to 60 balls over the last 18 months with various layouts for testing purposes. The testing covered different covers, cores, layouts and flare potentials.

You requested to have an in product ball, or I would strongly recommend a GURU. The Pin down GURU would have more overall hook than your current. If you were, like suggested earlier, to use the appropriate layout for your bowler type the GURU would suit your needs for any amount of hook or oil.


Thanks, your reply was better than Mo's, you indicated the reason for the quicker response.


You have been given plenty of info on the difference between pin up and pin down layouts. Do your own research! At Radical, we developed the "finger scoop" to enhance the difference between the two layouts.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 10:29 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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I saw this thread and I thought it'd try adding on to it, seeing as how it's discussing the differences of "pin up vs pin down".

Mo, I've been working very closely with Rich Huzina out of Calgary. He's helped me learn Dual Angle and I am definitely much better for it now.

However I've always wondered this specifically.Pin up = Low VAL = quicker response. Easy peasy.
Pin down = High VAL = slow response. Got it.

Now my question is this. Does a higher VAL angle, aka slower response, still result in the ball starting a touch EARLIER than a low VAL angle? The way it was explained to me was to sort of imagine rolling a ball backwards on the lane. it will slowly spin backwards, eventually stop, and continuing rolling forward again. That was the analogy given of what the core is doing inside a ball with a "pin down" layout.

Any truth to that? Or do High Val/Low val layouts start their hook phase at the same time?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:08 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Xeroqualms wrote:
I saw this thread and I thought it'd try adding on to it, seeing as how it's discussing the differences of "pin up vs pin down".

Mo, I've been working very closely with Rich Huzina out of Calgary. He's helped me learn Dual Angle and I am definitely much better for it now.

However I've always wondered this specifically.Pin up = Low VAL = quicker response. Easy peasy.
Pin down = High VAL = slow response. Got it.

Now my question is this. Does a higher VAL angle, aka slower response, still result in the ball starting a touch EARLIER than a low VAL angle? The way it was explained to me was to sort of imagine rolling a ball backwards on the lane. it will slowly spin backwards, eventually stop, and continuing rolling forward again. That was the analogy given of what the core is doing inside a ball with a "pin down" layout.

Any truth to that? Or do High Val/Low val layouts start their hook phase at the same time?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.


Rich knows his stuff. The pin up vs pin down (smaller vs. larger VAL angle) does not effect the first transition (skid to hook). It only effects the length of the hook zone.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Mon Dec 22, 2014 11:32 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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He certainly does, he has helped me immensely.

Thanks for answering that Mo.

+1 for Science.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 9:34 am Post Number: #16 Post
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Would I be correct in saying the first transition is more about pin to pap ?

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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 11:54 am Post Number: #17 Post
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Pulsetech wrote:
Would I be correct in saying the first transition is more about pin to pap ?


The first transition (skid to hook) is related to flare (pin to PAP distance) and the drilling angle. It's all in the Wiki under Dual Angle Layouts.


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 Post subject: Re: Pin under ball
 Posted: Tue Dec 23, 2014 10:08 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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Xeroqualms wrote:
I saw this thread and I thought it'd try adding on to it, seeing as how it's discussing the differences of "pin up vs pin down".

Mo, I've been working very closely with Rich Huzina out of Calgary. He's helped me learn Dual Angle and I am definitely much better for it now.

However I've always wondered this specifically.Pin up = Low VAL = quicker response. Easy peasy.
Pin down = High VAL = slow response. Got it.

Now my question is this. Does a higher VAL angle, aka slower response, still result in the ball starting a touch EARLIER than a low VAL angle? The way it was explained to me was to sort of imagine rolling a ball backwards on the lane. it will slowly spin backwards, eventually stop, and continuing rolling forward again. That was the analogy given of what the core is doing inside a ball with a "pin down" layout.

Any truth to that? Or do High Val/Low val layouts start their hook phase at the same time?

Thanks for taking the time to answer.


Why soo many think that a pin up layout on a ball goes longer is because all they see is more backend. But what they do not understand like Mo said is what is happening during the second transition or hook phase. Bot balls with the same surface could have the same length technically just one with a longer hook phase compared to the other. I am thinking that people simply do NOT know how to read a ball's reaction on the lanes.

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