Observations and some questions

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krava
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Observations and some questions

Post by krava » November 28th, 2019, 9:28 am

#1 "feel" When releasing the ball, I can feel my fingers do a small arc motion and then stretch out before the ball is released. It feels sort of like if I was pulling back a little on a rubber band with the 2 fingers and then release. Is this the way it is suppose to feel? I asked a 200+ average bowler who is the lane tech machine guy and he said he can't feel his fingers at any time and he basically puts a spin on the ball at the end. I hold the ball in 1 position trying to keep the forearm up and wrist behind the ball the entire time until the ball is forced out of my hand at release.

#2 What happened here? Swing I let the ball drop and don't put any resistance behind it when it drops. Then I let the ball do its back swing thing and don't pull down. Then when the ball comes down at the bottom, I feel the ball sort of jerk. Sort of like SNAG and it is still in my hand when I feel it before I release. For the entire swing everything seems to have gone good. The ball is basically weightless and then all of a sudden. Whop there it is sort of like a bungee cord. This only happened maybe 3-4 times out of about 15 games but I don't know what would cause that.

#3 Idea Footwork My theory is that in a 4 step approach, the right foot has to go in front of the left foot so the swing can go straight down where the right leg used to be. If this doesn't happen and the right foot is just on the side of the left, then the swing will be off a little resulting in the ball further away from the ankle at release. The best chance you have is to have it come straight down and keep the forearm up facing the pins. Videoing isn't enough. My idea is that I am going to have someone stand behind me. His only job is to make sure that my first step is in front of the other foot. If it is not, then he yells out "STOP" or whatever. That away I know instantly that I messed up. If I used video. I would do it over and over again and not know it until I see the video later on and then it is too late. I was going to do this today with my uncle but everyone on earth was at the bowling alley and they had the music up where you couldn't hear yourself even talk. I ended up working on the swing and keeping the forearm up and wrist strong through the swing. So the question here is, has anyone ever done what I said? have someone stand behind you and if your footwork is off, then have them stop you immediately. I would also like someone to stand behind me making sure my fingers stay on the inside of the ball and don't accidentally turn but my uncle has issues and probably couldn't figure that out. Also you can figure out if you did that or not about how the ball rolls after you release it.

#4 In my experience, No matter how hard I try to put a little something extra on the ball at the end, nothing compares to just letting the ball come off of my hand by itself (with correct wrist poistion behind the ball). The ball revs better, and rolls absolutely perfect (if thrown in the right area). If you try to put anything on the ball, then for the ball to be consistent, you have to put the exact same motion on it again. You can just cut all that mess out by just letting the ball rip off the hand itself. That is one less thing you have to be consistent with. So the question here is, has anyone been able to put a little more on the ball then what that reaction gives? Today last game, stood on 41? (1 board left of last dot left) threw accross 15 out to 8-10 and back in at 16.5 on the monitor. (and still having to wipe the ball after each shot). Radical conspiracy and the ball had to have revs to come back from that at that speed.

I am going to go back start with footwork, get that done, then deal with the swing. Everything other then that I feel is about as good as it is going to get. I am getting better knowing if I pull down in the swing though. If I can feel the ball in the backswing (weight) then I am pulling down on it. If timing is off just a little, that results in a pulldown by accident.

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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by 44boyd » November 28th, 2019, 1:42 pm

That “hesitation” where it feels weightless is normal and it’s where the pros bend the elbow and cup the wrist to get under the ball. Swing timing being off is the only time I’m aware of it, I have to rush feet or pull down to get it to release. As far as the swoosh, I like Marshall Holman’s explanation to just release through the ball and let the hand rotate naturally. If I need more or less rotation, that’s where the “finger dancing “ comes into play.
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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by kajmk » November 28th, 2019, 6:13 pm

Off the top of my head. Just a few tidbits


" I would also like someone to stand behind me making sure my fingers stay on the inside of the ball and don't accidentally turn but my uncle has issues and probably couldn't figure that out. Also you can figure out if you did that or not about how the ball rolls after you release it."


Try this
Run a piece of tape a few inches long from the just below the finger holes pointing away from the holes. The holes like eyes, the tale like a long nose. That tape would be analogous to a minute hand on a clock. Have the observer key on and perhaps take a video from an optimum angle. You can print off Jim's article which contains pictures.
Discuss this article and pictures with the observer.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index. ... f_the_ball

Listen to Norm on Ball Placement into an arc, he talks about it at both beginning and end of the video. Foot work note, Norm is what Ron Hoppe calls a ducker. It's just an older way of clearing the knee out of the way. Don't concern yourself, with that.

Norm on Ball Placement.



The science Norm mentions



Without muscling a swing, the ball will accelerate as it approaches the nadir of the swing it would feel heaviest at the bottom. As Ron Clifton says, Let your hand ride the ball. Being able to manipulate the ball in that weightless zone is a key to an elite release, how a Pete Weber or Chris Warren can roll such powerful shots despite their size.

Stacy's comment about Marshall Holman's description.
I can honestly say that when I bowled, the quality of my roll increased as what I felt decreased.
Watch the Marshall Holman/John Howdy video, listen to Marshall's comments.
(Big time Marshall fan here)




Until later ...

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Our Canadian friends do so on another day.

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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by krava » November 28th, 2019, 10:57 pm

I can't find a place to give you a +1 point, I don't know if they took that away with the new look of the site. Anyway Happy thanksgiving to you. I saw the first 2 videos. Saw the first 1 like quite a few times already though. 2nd one I haven't ever seen. So Let me debate the 2nd video. According to the video, wherever you start the ball, the ball will only make it back almost that far without any kind of push. how do you get that high backswing? don't you have to push the ball down a little or something to get it to go up higher? I am thinking if you don't push at all, the ball will only go as high in the backswing as however high you start out with the ball? I will watch the 3rd video tonight as I am about to go out and that is a long video.

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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by MegaMav » November 29th, 2019, 1:10 am

Bowling becomes easy when these things happen:

1. Muscular effort is minimal.
2. You keep your hand relaxed and under the weightless ball until it reaches the bottom of the downswing.
3. The shoulder is "lubricated" and relaxed throughout the swing.
4. The ball stays under your head the whole swing plane.
5. You start the ball at the right time based on your foot speed to release the ball at the end of the flat spot softly into the lane.
6. DONT GRAB THE BALL! Roll it off your fingertips. Many pros grab it. Norm Duke does not. Repeat your shots, power isnt more important.

Everything starts with a proper relaxed fit, which based your feedback, sounds like you're hanging in it, most likely on the front of the thumb from a long span.
krava wrote:
November 28th, 2019, 10:57 pm
I can't find a place to give you a +1 point, I don't know if they took that away with the new look of the site.
Must have missed the global upgrade post at the top of every forum.
“When you prepare for everything, you’re ready for anything.” - Bill Walsh

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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by kajmk » November 29th, 2019, 4:28 pm

MegaMav wrote:
November 29th, 2019, 1:10 am
Bowling becomes easy when these things happen:

1. Muscular effort is minimal.
2. You keep your hand relaxed and under the weightless ball until it reaches the bottom of the downswing.
3. The shoulder is "lubricated" and relaxed throughout the swing.
4. The ball stays under your head the whole swing plane.
5. You start the ball at the right time based on your foot speed to release the ball at the end of the flat spot softly into the lane.
6. DONT GRAB THE BALL! Roll it off your fingertips. Many pros grab it. Norm Duke does not. Repeat your shots, power isnt more important.

Everything starts with a proper relaxed fit, which based your feedback, sounds like you're hanging in it, most likely on the front of the thumb from a long span.



Must have missed the global upgrade post at the top of every forum.

Fridge magnet material by MegaMav



In fact, dare I say Six Silver Bowling Bullets !!!

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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by krava » November 30th, 2019, 9:39 am

Thanks Megamav for the list.

People do things differently. I saw the marshall video. he stood with his foot on 15. 1st step was 5 boards to the left. he ended up on I think 26/27 throwing up 10. Your suppose to walk straight when you throw the ball straight up the boards. Also he lets the ball go like 3 feet before the fowl line and then slides 2-2.5 feet (maybe more). He doesn't even have a push a way. his hand is almost straight down and then he moves the ball a little up and then back. (this defies a lot of things that people try to teach)

Then I saw walter ray williams and from the 1 video I saw, he like forces the ball at the very end. I am talking about the part where it is I think already at his ankle or close to it and then pushes hard out of it.

9check out 3:08 to 3:10 the ending is forced.
The best Swing/release I have seen is Michael fagan and I like the way Kris Prather puts the ball down on the lane. Also Kyle sherman is very smooth.

(the whole point I guess is nothing is like "textbook")


While I mention that> why is Kris Prather called the Shark? Is it because he bascially came out of nowhere? The answer is here but I can't get it:
https://www.flobowling.com/video/648981 ... verage_id=

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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by 44boyd » November 30th, 2019, 1:41 pm

55235569-2EE7-44D2-8D43-25B79C7B7885.gif
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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by MegaMav » November 30th, 2019, 2:23 pm

I dont know why I bother replying to you, Danny.
When someone gives you good advice, your typical reply says "why doesn't X professional do that?". Guess what? Not everyone is cut from the same cloth, but most successful professionals have key physical traits.

Just when I thought there was an outside chance you are starting to get it based on your initial post, you give us the most incoherent, scatterbrained reply I've ever seen on this forum that starts with "Thanks, everyone's different." Who the hell do you think you are?

Time to do some soul searching.
Danny's ego or swallow your pride (which seems to be limitless) and start putting good advice to work?
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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by bowl1820 » November 30th, 2019, 5:00 pm

krava wrote:
November 28th, 2019, 9:28 am
#1 "feel" When releasing the ball, I can feel my fingers do a small arc motion and then stretch out before the ball is released. It feels sort of like if I was pulling back a little on a rubber band with the 2 fingers and then release. Is this the way it is suppose to feel?
Yes. You start out your fingers are basically hooked into the ball. As the ball rolls off your hand and your fingers come up the back of the ball they straighten out.
#2 What happened here? ........ Then when the ball comes down at the bottom, I feel the ball sort of jerk. Sort of like SNAG and it is still in my hand when I feel it before I release..............This only happened maybe 3-4 times out of about 15 games but I don't know what would cause that.
Since it only happened a few times, Most likely the ball started to come off your thumb a little early and you tensed up your grip (You grabbed it).


#3 Idea Footwork My theory is that in a 4 step approach, the right foot has to go in front of the left foot so the swing can go straight down where the right leg used to be.
It's not a theory, it's called the "Crossover step" It's what is commonly taught.

examples:
footwork 01.jpg
footwork 02.jpg


#4 In my experience, No matter how hard I try to put a little something extra on the ball at the end, nothing compares to just letting the ball come off of my hand by itself (with correct wrist poistion behind the ball).
Yes , Trying to put a little something extra on the ball at the end will usually cause problems and that's why most coaches and articles tell you not to try and do it.
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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by kajmk » November 30th, 2019, 5:02 pm

Was working on this while bowl1820 was posting, ergo not aware of that post.


I should first acknowledge that I am not the best communicator, by written or spoken word. What we do on the forum is like using carrier pigeon. I think we'd all agree that much can be lost or misconstrued. Face to face, we get all kinds of feedback: facial expressions, gestures, tone of voice, we can ask for clarification or clarify. Unfortunately, the essence of the message can be lost, misunderstood and in some cases purposely vague or open ended.

Recently, I went to a fast food restaurant and asked for a children's chicken dinner portion with a leg. The server asked which side? Puzzled, I thought for a few seconds and said, the right side I guess. She said, no sir, do you want fries or mashed potatoes.

Some say everything happens for a reason. I saw that restaurant dialogue on a joke shared on social media. Seemed like a good time to share.

Actually I think krava was commenting on the fact that some very good bowler's break the mold, then detailing what he saw. Call it curiosity. There is a tv commercial where a little girl keeps asking, "how did, how do" ? Additionally, he enjoys talking bowling, which is one of the reasons he hangs here. I can relate, it's good to talk the game. Since I've been out of the game, there's no one in my orbit that has any interest in the sport.

Don Johnson's videos are available on our wiki, courtesy of Eric (MegaMav).
In one of the videos Don mentions what he refers to as common denominators (traits)
that pro bowler's share. He goes on to say that as an instructor, he is not trying to make his students robots, just pointing out that if certain factors are common, there must be a good reason. He also points out some of the bowler's that had somewhat unique styles, Marshall is one he mentioned. It takes a very keen eye and understanding of biomechanics the physics of bowling to realize how and where those styles tie it all together to get good results. Tom Kouros likened the act of bowling to a math equation. Tom asserted that when good bowler's do something that is "negative" they usually have another "negative" that cancels out the first one, that is a minus and a minus equal a plus.
The pros succeed because of innate athletic instinct and skill, their talents are a bit like personal recipes.
We all have our own recipes.
Most of us do not have the innate talents of elite athletes, heck thats why they are elite. Now, when you coach or instruct an athlete, you probably should speak and observe the athlete before tweaking the ingredients of their personal recipe. Ron Hoppe wrote that lesson one was usually a one hour sit down exchange.
Eric's 6 great ingredients are something that would make most if not all bowler's bowl very well and consistently so.
Eric's list is like Don's common denominators.
Having said that, who among us would tweak a Walter Ray, a Marshall, or an Amelleto? On the other hand, who among us can emulate a Walter Ray, a Marshall, or an Amelleto? One of the best bowler's I've had the pleasure to team up with had a lot of Marshall in his game, I called him La Machine, always Mr Dependable. Though I'd love to, I'm better off with a proven recipe like the one Eric jotted down.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

Empathize

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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by bowl1820 » November 30th, 2019, 6:01 pm

krava wrote:
November 28th, 2019, 10:57 pm
So Let me debate the 2nd video. According to the video, wherever you start the ball, the ball will only make it back almost that far without any kind of push.
Basically true if the ball swings like on a true pendulum with a fixed point of suspension, the ball starts at say the 3 o'clock position and just naturally swings back it will go to almost the 9 o'clock position.
how do you get that high backswing?
But a bowlers swing though is like a pendulum with a movable point of suspension (Shoulder), this movable point is what creates the higher back swing.

As the bowler makes his approach and is swinging the ball, at the proper time their body tilts forward this lowers the point of suspension (shoulder) which makes the ball higher in relation to the shoulder than it was.

Here's a simple example: In all 3 figures the back swing (the angle created by the red arm & purple spine) is the same. But as the spine leans forward the ball height increases.
swing height-1.gif
You can feel this yourself, Just stand up straight and hold your arm behind you like a back swing then lean forward. You'll feel your arm/hand go up higher.

For the most part how actually high your back swing is irrelevant as long as your not muscling it to get it up there. If you just let your arm swing and body tilt forward at the "Proper time" (If you do it too soon you won't swing it high.) , you'll find your arm swing is as high as it needs to be.

Here's article by Ron Clifton that talks about it.

How High Can A Free Swing Go?
http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip41_files/tip41.htm
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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by kajmk » November 30th, 2019, 7:06 pm

Excellent lesson and explanations by bowl1820.
All in all a productive thread.
Thanks to all.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so

There should be a rule of war saying you have to see someone up close and get to know 'em before it's ok to shoot 'em

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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by bowl1820 » November 30th, 2019, 7:34 pm

krava wrote:
November 30th, 2019, 9:39 am
People do things differently.
True, But most players start with the basic's (textbook) and as time goes on those differences develop (either for good or bad)
I saw the marshall video. he stood with his foot on 15. 1st step was 5 boards to the left. he ended up on I think 26/27 throwing up 10. Your suppose to walk straight when you throw the ball straight up the boards.


Okay first you don't know that he was trying throw the ball straight up the boards he was demoing foot work and swing not lane play. at 00:08:35 yes he's on 15, He stepped left about 5 boards to about 20, After that first step he did walk straight up the boards he didn't drift farther left after that and started sliding on 20 finishing about 21-22 maybe (not 26-27).

Now he has a 5 step approach here, In the video I posted above Carolyn mentioned doing a similar thing when she did 5 steps the first one (crossover step) went far left. Coach Shockley told her how to compensate for that (stand right a little bit). That was basically what Marshall was doing (Now I'm just assuming this, going by watching what he was doing on other shots.) standing on 15 compensating for the move left so he was finishing on 20.

Also he lets the ball go like 3 feet before the fowl line and then slides 2-2.5 feet (maybe more).

So? You don't have to release the ball right on top of the foul line. He went into his slide and the ball reached the bottom of the swing, it had a good flat spot of the swing he projected the ball onto the lane past the foul line.
He doesn't even have a push a way. his hand is almost straight down and then he moves the ball a little up and then back. (this defies a lot of things that people try to teach)
According to Fred Borden in his book "Bowling: Knowledge is the Key" in regards to ball height in the stance he says: "use it as a way of controlling arm swing timing to match the tempo of your feet movements. Raising the ball retards the arm swing in relation to the feet movement, lowering the ball advances the arm swing timing in relation to the feet movements"

Marshall has pretty fast approach so holding the ball lower would help him match his swing with his footwork.
Then I saw walter ray williams and from the 1 video I saw, he like forces the ball at the very end. I am talking about the part where it is I think already at his ankle or close to it and then pushes hard out of it.

9check out 3:08 to 3:10 the ending is forced.
I wouldn't considered it "Forced" myself.

One thing about WRW,jr. and he said it many times is He has a unorthodox style don't try to copy or go by what he doe's. Which I believe comes from him being a world champion horseshoe player (playing horseshoes has some similar physical mechanics to bowling).
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."

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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by krava » December 2nd, 2019, 1:54 am

I haven't read bowl1820's post. I am a bit lost on your post megamav. I completely agree what what you said. Everything in your list is what I am trying to do. You might be right about an incoherent post. That post wasn't to say you are wrong and what they are doing is right. I don't care what those pro's are doing, atleast the ones that don't do what your list states. I will say it again, your list and mine are the same. I just didn't say extra things that I needed to. I am not trying to be rude but my point was: why do I need to see marshal Holman bowl when he does several offbeat extra things? My point about everyone's different was meaning, maybe he (refering to other bowlers) might do something different and it might work for them but it doesn't work for me. Granted no one said bowl like him and listen to what he had to say about the weight of the ball etc. I watched the video atleast 85-90% and didn't hear him say anything about that, but he could have. We are tought by alot of people that we need to walk a certain way and then you go and see someone that is successful do things completely different from that. That is where the I guess people are different line came from. There is no way in the world I want to take a 5 board step to the left. I was just pointing out "observations". I had no idea that someone actually did that and just stated that if someone didn't know. Another thing is you stated that a lot of pro's "hit up" on the ball or some similar and I pointed out what I saw in a video I watched to prove the point you stated. It was bascially yes, your right take a look at what he does at the end. If I don't agree with something I will come out and say I don't agree with this because this and that. I never said that.

Hopefully I didn't write anything wrong there, but thanks again for the list MegaMav and will be looking back at it from time to time if I forget one of those elements.

Bowl1820 Thanks for your comment, it is long and I want to take time to read it. I got to get to the bowling alley and don't have time to read it but will later tonight.

As of this writing, the only thing I don't know how to do, is how to change axis tilt and rotation. For instance I am suppose to be 13 degree's and 45 rotation. I don't know how to change it to 20 degrees or 7 degrees or make that 45 into 30 or 60. But the swing is something definitely that is going to take alot of time and work to get it right.

Just going off memory and not looking up what you typed, this is what I remember or what my list is as well.

as minimal muscle as possible
#1 hold the ball with hand under it and loose (almost all the weight with left hand supporting it)
let the ball drop with the ball directly under the head the entire swing
keep forearm facing up and if you need to aim with the index finger
in the downswing try to arrange hand so that the wrist is in a strong postion and fingers are inside the ball
get ball to (perfect point plane. I forget the exact name of it but it is the plane right by the ankle that has the best leverage) for release
Let the ball come off the hand by itself.

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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by 44boyd » December 3rd, 2019, 4:23 am

tilt is hard to change because of cocking of the wrist and getting your thumb out sooner or later depending on what you’re wanting it to do. Rotation, you can do like Chris Barnes and hold the ball different in your stance (he holds it more on the side for 60degrees, and cocks his wrist left and holds it underneath for 80 degrees). Or like Kris Prather, he spreads his pointer finger the furthest it will go and tucks his pinky for more rotation.
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Re: Observations and some questions

Post by bowl1820 » December 3rd, 2019, 6:17 pm

krava wrote:
December 2nd, 2019, 1:54 am
As of this writing, the only thing I don't know how to do, is how to change axis tilt and rotation.


What do you mean by "I am suppose to be", Why do you have to be at those particular angles for rotation? or is that 13° tilt & 45° rotation? If so then the same question.



Here's some basic info to get started.

axis tilt vs. axis rotation


Understanding Axis rotation


How to change the axis tilt of your bowling ball with different hand positions
"REMEMBER, it isn't how much the ball hooks, it's where."

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