Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

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Jochemke
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Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by Jochemke »

Hey all,

I have someone who asked me for help since our local pro shop doesn't seem to be able to fix it.

He is having problems with his track going over his fingers and thumb.
From what I have seen and measured he has the following stats:

Speed: 14mph
Revs: 350rpm
Axis tilt: 5-10°
Axis rotation: 70-80°
PAP: 6,5"R 5/8U

He had no problems with his track on his previous balls which had a balance hole but on the balls without it the track rolls over his fingers. Is there a way to prevent this with adjusting his layout or should i send hem to a sort of full roller layout? Or is the only solution for him adjusting his release?

Is there a way to layout a ball for full rollers using Dual Angle or what is the best approach for this?
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by TonyPR »

If the track is going over his fingers and thumb and not between them like a full roller you probably don’t need a full roller layout. He is a low tilt player with a high track. Draw a line from the ring finger to his PAP and keep the pins above that line, no pin downs for this guy. Keep pin to pap distances at 4.5 and under and you will be alright.
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by Jochemke »

TonyPR wrote:If the track is going over his fingers and thumb and not between them like a full roller you probably don’t need a full roller layout. He is a low tilt player with a high track. Draw a line from the ring finger to his PAP and keep the pins above that line, no pin downs for this guy. Keep pin to pap distances at 4.5 and under and you will be alright.
I was aware of the fact that i had to keep his pin above that line. However he has a Motiv Jackal Rising with the pin at the right of the ring finger and this is his oil track.

Is a Low tilt closer to a full roller than a high tilt or is this totally wrong?

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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by snick »

Looks like full roller to me.
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by JohnP »

Have him throw a plastic ball with a pancake core so you can be sure where his initial track is. If the track that runs from the right of his thumb to his ring finger is the initial track he's a full roller. -- JohnP
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by TonyPR »

Not a full roller in every sense of the word as he has some tilt, full rollers have zero tilt. His track though is very similar to a full roller, try a full roller layout and report back.

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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by JohnP »

I wonder about the accuracy of the tilt measurement, the track from the right of the thumb to the MF looks to me like it very well could be 0 tilt. A full roller PAP should be 6 3/4" right, real close to the 6 1/2" reported. -- JohnP
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by EricHartwell »

See attachment.

I couldn't see the pin in the picture so the layout is only a guess.
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by Jochemke »

I let him throw his spare ball and here is the result of where his track line was when using his spare ball.
Please ignore the fact that it is a different ball it is only for reference.

Image


Here is the layout of the ball he uses at the moment

Image
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by TomaHawk »

He is definitely a full roller. To start, plug a ball and put the pin at 7:30. This is a standard full roller drill pattern. You might modify or experiment with different drill patterns later.

People seem to be shocked by the fact, someone could be a full roller. For all the Bill Taylor purist out there, he suggested, a full roller is more effective than a semi-roller.
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by MegaMav »

TomaHawk wrote: People seem to be shocked by the fact, someone could be a full roller. For all the Bill Taylor purist out there, he suggested, a full roller is more effective than a semi-roller.
Yeah. With rubber, plastic and urethane.
Times have changed, tilt is beneficial in the modern environment.
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by JohnP »

The first thing I'd do is find another pro shop, the driller should have seen that he is a full roller when he measured his PAP location. If he doesn't know that a full roller requires a special layout to avoid hitting the holes what else does he not know?

The standard full roller layout puts the pin 3 3/8" from grip center at 7:30 on a clock face and gives maximum flare. You can reduce the flare by adjusting the GC to PAP distance some. -- JohnP
Last edited by JohnP on November 21st, 2018, 5:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by TomaHawk »

MegaMav wrote:
Yeah. With rubber, plastic and urethane.
Times have changed, tilt is beneficial in the modern environment.
Agreed. Tilt has always been advantageous, even back then. It just makes sense, spinning versus rolling is going to create a greater degree of possible strike angles. "Hit 'em thin, watch 'em spin". Combining spin with a reasonable amount of control is a recipe for success. But, for certain bowler types, the full roller release is a godsend. It is easier to get down the lane and offers a greater amount of control on the lane.

There is a bowler in our area who can, instantly, switch from a semi-roller release to a full roller release. He is a great case study because he can make the change seamlessly. When he has the opportunity, he prefers to roll the ball with a full roller release stating, just as above, he feels he has greater control. He also comments, he is able to roll the ball faster because of the simplicity of the release technique and a much straighter angle to the pocket. He also admits, the full roller release has it's limitations though. It does not carry as well from inside angles. When he has to move inside, he switches from equipment drilled for a full roller to something more suitable for a semi-roller release. He then changes his release mechanism accordingly.

There are several full rollers that frequent our shop. It is interesting to observe, they seem to have a shot when everyone else is struggling. One fellow just shot his second 300 this year and has come close to 800 a couple of times too. No one else was even close. He is not the Smallwood / Ewald type of bowler, both of whom possess higher speed and uncharacteristically higher rev rates for full rollers. He is just a simple "down and in" bowler. Amazing. It's enough to make one think, if we can't excel at wheeling the ball down the lane, maybe full rolling the ball is not a bad option.
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by TonyPR »

According to Mo, his staff player Tom Smallwood has some axis tilt although he tracks between thumb and fingers. In order to be a full roller by definition, the track must roll around the “full” circumference of the ball. I have seen full rollers who do not track between thumb and fingers.
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by MegaMav »

TonyPR wrote:According to Mo, his staff player Tom Smallwood has some axis tilt although he tracks between thumb and fingers. In order to be a full roller by definition, the track must roll around the “full” circumference of the ball. I have seen full rollers who do not track between thumb and fingers.
You're thinking of zero tilt, which full rollers are.
Full rollers track thru the grip with usually zero tilt, sometimes slightly negative.
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by TomaHawk »

TonyPR wrote: In order to be a full roller by definition, the track must roll around the “full” circumference of the ball. I have seen full rollers who do not track between thumb and fingers.
It seems you are describing a very high track with pap measurements somewhere in the vicinity of 6> 0^ with very low tilt.
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by TonyPR »

With zero tilt
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by krava »

changing from full roller to semi roller is easy. For the semi roller you hold the ball on the right side and then pull from the fingers up on the right barely putting anything on the ball. full roller, you just hold your hand in a u postion the whole time and then release the ball with thumb and fingers coming out at the same time. semi roller will have a tad bit more revs then a full roller. If I throw a full roller, I don't track in the thumb and fingers either. it is close to the thumb hole but not accross it.

Full roller, semi roller is good when the backends are jumping and you don't have a ball that won't stop having too much back end. (this is in theory though, I haven't seen backends that jump too crazy and if I get a chance to do in the future, I would try a ball drilled low flare first.) I have been through this before. Full roller doesn't have the impact that a regular thrown ball does. Messengers flying around etc. Think people got off the subject here. I need to get back to work and think about bowling in a few weeks.
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by TomaHawk »

krava wrote:changing from full roller to semi roller is easy. For the semi roller you hold the ball on the right side and then pull from the fingers up on the right barely putting anything on the ball. full roller, you just hold your hand in a u postion the whole time and then release the ball with thumb and fingers coming out at the same time. semi roller will have a tad bit more revs then a full roller. If I throw a full roller, I don't track in the thumb and fingers either. it is close to the thumb hole but not accross it.

Full roller, semi roller is good when the backends are jumping and you don't have a ball that won't stop having too much back end. (this is in theory though, I haven't seen backends that jump too crazy and if I get a chance to do in the future, I would try a ball drilled low flare first.) I have been through this before. Full roller doesn't have the impact that a regular thrown ball does. Messengers flying around etc. Think people got off the subject here. I need to get back to work and think about bowling in a few weeks.
That leads to the question, change the ball or change the bowler?
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Re: Adjusting track line (low tilt) - 6" PAP

Post by JohnP »

Thumbless bowlers, both one and two handed, have a tendency to track the full diameter of the ball (0 axis tilt), some in a semi-roller track position and some in a full roller track position. If they have the right combination of speed and revs they can have a good ball reaction even without axis tilt. -- JohnP
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