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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 2:15 am Post Number: #81 Post
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Nord wrote:
I understand the concept of a 3/4 roller release and the modern release which is much more heavy with the addition of the bent arm unloading at the bottom to increase the roll off the hand.
I have watched videos and played around with a nerf ball and a softball and I can definitely just let the ball just roll off the fingers.
One of my favorite modern rollers is Bill O'Neil, the ball just really comes off his hand so heavy.
Jakob Butturff is another player who is very unconventional but does really let that ball just roll off that cocked hand when he unloads it.
And one of smoothest ball releases, that is so heavy rolling, is the way Sin Li Jane rolls it, wow.
I want her roll!
But first I will need a light ball, say 12 lbs to start and a perfect fit so it is just attached to my hand with zero squeeze pressure and rolls off.
The big problem is the perfect fit thing.
I need someone 100% reliable who knows all the modern fitting techniques and understands I am trying to move 180 degrees from where I am.
It scares me to consider all the pain coming back from another crappy fitting.
I don't want to be back where I was 6 years ago, that was a nightmare.


To be clear, you wont be bending your elbow or wrist.
Just letting the ball roll off your hand with an OPEN hand and loose wrist.
There will be no squeeze. I dont know people in Cali, but if you contact Ron about a modern finger tip, since he has experience with you, maybe he can start the process. You are correct, its critical to find someone that will fit modern and not just talk the talk.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 5:23 am Post Number: #82 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
To be clear, you wont be bending your elbow or wrist.
Just letting the ball roll off your hand with an OPEN hand and loose wrist.
There will be no squeeze. I don't know people in Cali, but if you contact Ron about a modern finger tip, since he has experience with you, maybe he can start the process. You are correct, its critical to find someone that will fit modern and not just talk the talk.

Ok, that seems easier, but the modern players do cock the wrist and unload it like Wes Malott and some even bend the elbow and unload that too to increase the unload speed.
Even Marshall Holman bent his elbow and wrist and unloaded it to get his power.
But I will not try to emulate that advanced technique.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 7:40 am Post Number: #83 Post
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Here is a look at my fingers and thumb in the ball.

First the ball sitting on the ground with fingers and thumb fully inserted.
Attachment:
Ball on ground.png


Next is the ball lifted off the ground.
The weight of the ball pulls the thumb out until it catches on the front bevel of the thumbhole and hooks in.
Attachment:
Ball lifted off ground.png


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:41 am Post Number: #84 Post
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Nord wrote:
-Do you use forward pitch in fingers or thumb?
-Do you use textured tape or cork in the front of the thumbhole?
-Do you use a thumb-slug, or finger inserts, or just drill into the ball for all holes?

- yes, I’m 42 so there is some pitch
- I’ll use black tape in back, but I have turbo IT ovaled. I don’t like tape in the front since I try to concentrate on forcing the back of my thumb against the slug so it comes out clean.

For styles to get used to a 3/4 roller, I know you like O’Neil but he’s considered a cranker. When I switched from plastic to a beginner resin 4 years ago I watched a lot of WRW, Mike Scroggins , Norm Duke, Parker Bohn, Del Ballard, Michael Haugen, and Holman videos on YouTube. They all have relatively simple releases to get the ball into a roll. When I move in it’s in my mind my Del Warren/Pete Weber soft hand come around the side of it. I have a lot of speed and some revs but down and in or with a little swing is what I’m most comfortable with, my speed allows me to stay out there longer than most and I get kind of Bob Learn jr. type speed/hook going. I know you’re talking about bent elbows and such, just let it swing naturally and get out of the ball clean and you’ll be amazed at how much movement you can get. Once you get that down, you can evolve into popping it at the bottom.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:47 am Post Number: #85 Post
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Nord, I know you said you don’t like Xtra Frame but I’d at least watch the PBA50 replays on YouTube. Watching them and the PWBA helps see the movement you can get while not being the strongest or most flexible version of yourself.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:22 pm Post Number: #86 Post
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If I can see down the back of the thumb hole, its too loose.
Snug it up from the back. Use whites then a black on top.
Word of advice, dont grab the ball after snugging it up, put a little baby powder on the thumb the first few shots.
Rev rate will go up.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 3:51 pm Post Number: #87 Post
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44boyd wrote:
- yes, I’m 42 so there is some pitch
- I’ll use black tape in back, but I have turbo IT ovaled. I don’t like tape in the front since I try to concentrate on forcing the back of my thumb against the slug so it comes out clean.

For styles to get used to a 3/4 roller, I know you like O’Neil but he’s considered a cranker. When I switched from plastic to a beginner resin 4 years ago I watched a lot of WRW, Mike Scroggins , Norm Duke, Parker Bohn, Del Ballard, Michael Haugen, and Holman videos on YouTube. They all have relatively simple releases to get the ball into a roll. When I move in it’s in my mind my Del Warren/Pete Weber soft hand come around the side of it. I have a lot of speed and some revs but down and in or with a little swing is what I’m most comfortable with, my speed allows me to stay out there longer than most and I get kind of Bob Learn jr. type speed/hook going. I know you’re talking about bent elbows and such, just let it swing naturally and get out of the ball clean and you’ll be amazed at how much movement you can get. Once you get that down, you can evolve into popping it at the bottom.

Actually my favorite woman bowler is Danielle Mcewen.
She has the most perfect style in my mind.
If I could emulate her release I would.
Also she looks like the the War Goddess Athena out there.
Tall, powerful, chiseled face...what were we talking about?

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 4:07 pm Post Number: #88 Post
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Yes she is, if you follow her on Instagram she shows how her game has evolved (less hip shimmy). Her release should be easy to copy with her late timing putting the ball into the swing on the 3rd step. She’s a roller and doesn’t cross her face with her arm.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 6:43 pm Post Number: #89 Post
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44boyd wrote:
Yes she is, if you follow her on Instagram she shows how her game has evolved (less hip shimmy). Her release should be easy to copy with her late timing putting the ball into the swing on the 3rd step. She’s a roller and doesn’t cross her face with her arm.

Yes, she does have a very late push away, so I would not copy that, just her beautiful release at the bottom.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:29 pm Post Number: #90 Post
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I dont do anything special to the ball and can achieve at least 325RPM easily, with a later and faster hand at the bottom I can hit 375. I dont load or unload my wrist, my hand stays loose and behind the ball. I wait on it and naturally turn my hand in the flat spot of the swing at the very bottom, not earlier. Its not hard, but if you are used to suitcasing the ball or turning your hand early, waiting on the ball will be a challenge. Just roll the ball off the pads of your fingers. If you feel the ball off the sides of the fingers you're turning too early to roll the ball.

DO NOT hit the ball at the bottom or attempt to do anything special other than waiting to turn your hand naturally in the flat spot. Its not physically hard to do, it just takes a disciplined mind and body. Remember, you are in control of your body and what it does.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 8:52 pm Post Number: #91 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
I dont do anything special to the ball and can achieve at least 325RPM easily, with a later and faster hand at the bottom I can hit 375. I dont load or unload my wrist, my hand stays loose and behind the ball. I wait on it and naturally turn my hand in the flat spot of the swing at the very bottom, not earlier. Its not hard, but if you are used to suitcasing the ball or turning your hand early, waiting on the ball will be a challenge. Just roll the ball off the pads of your fingers. If you feel the ball off the sides of the fingers you're turning too early to roll the ball.

DO NOT hit the ball at the bottom or attempt to do anything special other than waiting to turn your hand naturally in the flat spot. Its not physically hard to do, it just takes a disciplined mind and body. Remember, you are in control of your body and what it does.

Explain what a "flat spot" is.

To be clear:
-You want me to just let the ball roll off my fingers.
-Don't try to pull through with the fingers, just relax and let it roll off.
-But you do want me to try and spiral the ball at the bottom like the way you would throw a nerf football underhanded with a perfect spiral?

Can I use my current starting position and pushway?

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:24 pm Post Number: #92 Post
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Nord wrote:
Explain what a "flat spot" is.


See:
The Flat Spot
http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/index.php?title=The_Flat_spot

How is the flatspot created? And what are the advantages of it?
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=4005

Flat spot info video (Turn on the subtitle!! click the CC)

The flat spot is the area in the red circle in which the blue ball track flattens and the delivery happens.


(English cc/subtitles available for the text shown in the video)

This is a translation from German of the text that goes with the video:
Players who are able to make your delivery with a flat spot have the advantage that you can benefit from a margin of error in the delivery. It has also been shown that these players also have a higher consistency of the delivery.

The following elements are necessary in order to be able to produce such a flat ball track (or flat spot)
- the inclination of the upper body during the slide step should have a constant angle as far as possible
- the level (height) on which the hip axis moves during the slide step should remain as equal as possible until delivery
- to support this flat ball track, the knee should also continue the forward movement after which the foot has completed the sliding movement.

You also might want to read this:
Don’t Underestimate the Flat Spot!
http://tamerbowling.com/dont-underestimate-the-flat-spot/

Excerpt:
"So it is important to remember that the armswing should not be a simple semi-circle, i.e., it doesn’t just go back shoulder height and come forward shoulder height. At some point when you release the ball at the bottom of the swing, there actually has to be a slight forward projection which creates this “flat spot” effect."

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 9:51 pm Post Number: #93 Post
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Nord wrote:
-But you do want me to try and spiral the ball at the bottom like the way you would throw a nerf football underhanded with a perfect spiral?

Can I use my current starting position and pushway?


Nord, I cant be any more simple than the post above.

MegaMav wrote:
DO NOT hit the ball at the bottom or attempt to do anything special


All I want you to do is keep your fingers behind the ball the entire way and roll the ball off the pads of your fingers to start.
You can start the ball in a comfortable position, but not on the side of the ball until you learn to keep the fingers behind the ball from the apex to the flat spot as shown in the video posted above.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:31 pm Post Number: #94 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
...I wait on it and naturally turn my hand...
turn your hand naturally in the flat spot...

The turning part is what confuses me.
What does "turning" mean?
Should I just forget about "turning" for now and just roll the ball off the fingers?
Keep it as simple as possible, even if the ball just rolls straight end over end over the holes?

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:33 pm Post Number: #95 Post
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Nord wrote:
The turning part is what confuses me.
What does "turning" mean?
Should I just forget about "turning" for now and just roll the ball off the fingers?
Keep it as simple as possible, even if the ball just rolls straight end over end over the holes?


The ball wont roll over the holes if you roll it off your fingers naturally.
Most people would have to exaggerate their wrist inward to get 0* rotation.
Rolling it off your hand and finger pads naturally should get you around 20-30* rotation.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 10:57 pm Post Number: #96 Post
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Maybe this would help.

A very short video by Coach Joseph Slowinski, he slowly shows what the hand, fingers etc are doing during release:



"Maximum energy transfer from bowler to bowling ball requires the forearm in the center of the bowling ball. To maximize your rev rate, the fingers go under and through the center of the ball like a gear. There is no upward motion. Wrist begins flexed to move more under the ball (requires strong forearm flexor muscles). Then the elbow is extended parallel with the lane, away from the body, leading to full elbow extension."

Question: "Wouldn't this ball go straight or even slightly backup?"

Answer: "The goal of the video is to highlight the ideal central position of the hand into the release as well as the important of wrist flexion into release to creation a longer arc distance traveled with the fingers. If the palm rotates as the elbow extends, the fingers will continue to rotate, leading to a specific axis of rotation and subsequent motion that is not straight or a back-up. With a higher rev rate, low axis of rotation can release a great deal of right-to-left ball motion (RH)."

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 11:22 pm Post Number: #97 Post
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Dont do that.
We are not cupping the wrist.
Nord, lets keep it simple at this time.
Lets generate a greater rev rate and more hitting power from some tilt and less rotation.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 7:00 am Post Number: #98 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Dont do that.
We are not cupping the wrist.
Nord, lets keep it simple at this time.
Lets generate a greater rev rate and more hitting power from some tilt and less rotation.

Got it!
But nothing until I can get the right fitting and ball.
Until then, thank you for your help and advice.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:25 pm Post Number: #99 Post
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Keep us updated! I haven't even subscribed to you, but I get occasional videos of your release up on my phone! Interesting to see how it goes for you

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Fri May 18, 2018 5:54 pm Post Number: #100 Post
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JJakobsen wrote:
Keep us updated! I haven't even subscribed to you, but I get occasional videos of your release up on my phone! Interesting to see how it goes for you

Lol!
Please subscribe to my Full Roller channel! Ha, ha.

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