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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:07 am Post Number: #61 Post
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With your issues of the forearm tendons I am surprised you don't wear any kind of brace at all.
Such as this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LP-786-Tennis- ... B6fmlBQhWQ

Have you ever tried or worn a wrist support? If yes, which ones??

I have worn a neoprene wrist brace w/ compression straps for 30 yrs. Never 'needed' one no injuries or issues. Just a little preventive caution so as not to do any long term damage there. FYI


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 11:17 am Post Number: #62 Post
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Bit of a radical approach but switching to bowling left handed due to injuries is not unheard of.

If you consider two handed bowling I know a coach in Florida who has effectively teached seniors, his name is Del Warren. The basics will take two full days.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:25 pm Post Number: #63 Post
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Nord, you have a simple game, it just made sense that all you needed was simple equipment. Luckily, in today's marketplace, there are few big block polyester bowling balls to choose from. Keep your favorite resin in the bag (or locker) just in case there is a flood.

btw: I know a pretty good athlete when I see one :)


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:38 pm Post Number: #64 Post
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I think you should see Ron again sometime and get a 3/4 ball.
Even if its just 1, to practice with. This "suitcase grip" is garbage IMO, and I know Ron wouldnt recommend having your hand half out of the ball in the swing. Ron is a top shelf pro shop.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 2:42 pm Post Number: #65 Post
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Nord, Elgavachon replied regarding ball drillers in SoCal

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4288

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:21 pm Post Number: #66 Post
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imagonman wrote:
With your issues of the forearm tendons I am surprised you don't wear any kind of brace at all.
Such as this one:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/LP-786-Tennis- ... B6fmlBQhWQ

Have you ever tried or worn a wrist support? If yes, which ones??

I have worn a neoprene wrist brace w/ compression straps for 30 yrs. Never 'needed' one no injuries or issues. Just a little preventive caution so as not to do any long term damage there. FYI

I wear the pressure bowling sleeve on my arm you see the pros wearing.
It keeps the arm warm and there is some pressure.
But I don't feel pain in the forearm unless I am doing something wrong in my arm swing or release, or my thumbhole is not properly taped to the right fit.
Otherwise I am ok.
As long as I keep working out with weights for the whole body and keep all the muscles trained and strong, I rarely feel any issues with my current grip.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 3:39 pm Post Number: #67 Post
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kajmk wrote:
Nord, Elgavachon replied regarding ball drillers in SoCal

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4288

I read what he said.
Alvin Lou is actually the driller for my doubles partner.
He is the pro at Parkway Bowl where I do my doubles league.
elgavachon did look at my drill sheet though and said he did not find anything wrong with the layout that Ron created for me.
If I was going to totally change my game I would go to Florida and work with Del Warren.
He does very advanced drilling.
Or I would just fly to detroit and work with Ron Machniak in person and get some coaching and new layout/balls.
But assuming I don't change my game or style, are there things equipment wise that I should be doing differently to achieve my best results?
If you were a ball rep and saw how I bowled and the kinds of house shots I bowl on, what would you recommend for me as far as balls choices and full roller layouts that would optimize my scoring and make me more consistent in my results?

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 4:36 pm Post Number: #68 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
I think you should see Ron again sometime and get a 3/4 ball.
Even if its just 1, to practice with. This "suitcase grip" is garbage IMO, and I know Ron wouldnt recommend having your hand half out of the ball in the swing. Ron is a top shelf pro shop.


We fall into a trap of rights or wrongs. Would I personally recommend holding the ball like Nord? Emphatically, no. But, I've coached enough and done enough seminars to understand that there are extreme exceptions to all things bowling.

From my experience, it has become evident that tennis players and also hockey players adapt well to bowling, While it may not be obvious in terms of visual perception, tennis and hockey players are some of the best athletes in all of sports. The movements they are accustomed to performing are very closely emulated in the bowling approach.

I look at Nord as a totally unique individual. He was, maybe still is, a tennis player. We have to take into account his age, condition of his body, and any known injuries also.

We don't know the conversation that led to the type of fit Nord currently utilizes. But, judging by his response in these threads, I am going to assume it was pretty thorough. In this particular case, I think the pro shop owner was listening and evaluating all of criteria given to fit a ball for Nord. That is really important.

All things considered, Nord can roll a #15 ball effectively, without undue pain.

I don't think it is fair to judge the capability of an individual just because their name isn't plastered all over USBC's or IBPSIA's web sites. To be honest, I personally have no desire to pursue that type of comradery. Maybe with a few of them, definitely not with all of them ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:09 pm Post Number: #69 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
I don't think it is fair to judge the capability of an individual just because their name isn't plastered all over USBC's or IBPSIA's web sites.


I didnt and im not sure why you're implying that I did.
Regardless of his capabilities having his thumb half out of the ball is doing him no favors.
I think his thumb hole is too big and at least needs tape, possibly a refit or a reshape of the thumb.
We're going to get back to helping him score on a house shot as is right now, but I think his potential is far above what his skill level is now.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:13 pm Post Number: #70 Post
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All things being equal a 13 lbs ball rolled at 13 mph will hit much harder than a 15 lbs ball at 10.5 mph.
Many people I know, especially seniors with previous injuries would greatly benefit from dropping a pound or two in ball weight.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:25 pm Post Number: #71 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

I didnt and im not sure why you're implying that I did.
Regardless of his capabilities having his thumb half out of the ball is doing him no favors.
I think his thumb hole is too big and at least needs tape, possibly a refit or a reshape of the thumb.
We're going to get back to helping him score on a house shot as is right now, but I think his potential is far above what his skill level is now.


There is no way one cannot squeeze with their thumb pointing down, for a player with an injury a wrist device will allow for the thumb to be at a much more efficient position at release therefore minimizing grip pressure (which is the goal of fitting), preventing further injury and allowing for a better release.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:49 pm Post Number: #72 Post
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TonyPR wrote:

There is no way one cannot squeeze with their thumb pointing down, for a player with an injury a wrist device will allow for the thumb to be at a much more efficient position at release therefore minimizing grip pressure (which is the goal of fitting), preventing further injury and allowing for a better release.

I did mention that my fingers and thumb hook into the edges of the holes when the ball hangs down.
It does not require much squeezing force to hold it since it is just hooked in.
My thumbhole is as tight as I can get it and still get out of it.
Cork in front and tape in back.
In fact I use baby powder on the thumb to keep it dry and lubricate it so the thumb will release consistently.
I put the power on the thumb and then wipe it off on my pant leg so it is just a fine coat.
Without that, I would be sticking in the thumbhole in no time due to moisture from sweat and the extra grip the cork provides.
I will try to post a photo of me holding the ball so you can see more closely what is going on.

Having said all that, I am 100% open to a even better fit that will make my release from the ball more consistent and take even less gripping force.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 7:59 pm Post Number: #73 Post
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TonyPR wrote:
All things being equal a 13 lbs ball rolled at 13 mph will hit much harder than a 15 lbs ball at 10.5 mph.
Many people I know, especially seniors with previous injuries would greatly benefit from dropping a pound or two in ball weight.

There was a ball rep at Kearny the other day and he said that their studies show that a 16 lb ball going 10 mph deflects less at the pins than a 15 lb ball going 15 mph.
My ears perked up when he told the PSO that.
I use 14 and 15 lbs.
I find that 15 lbs give me a smoother better timed swing and I tend to get more accuracy.
With 14 lb I can make more release errors because I have more impact on the lighter weight of the ball.
Both weights seems to carry very well though, but 15 seems like it deflects less at the same ball speed and gives a different pin action than 14 lb.
Just my experience.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 8:47 pm Post Number: #74 Post
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There is nothing wrong with Nord's bowling technique. He repeats the same thing over and over. The suitcase release is easily, the most repeatable method of getting a ball onto the lane. It's like bunting a baseball, just get the ball on the ground.

Does the suitcase resemble any modern technique, no. Is it something i would teach? Again, the answer is no. But, if Nord was standing in front of me, I would give him the same exact advice I provided earlier. Roll a much less aggressive ball.

There is an 86 year old fellow who comes to lessons almost every week. He has developed a good game. Main problem, trying to keep his slide foot under him when the ball gets to the bottom of the swing. This is a consistent issue when the lanes are relatively dry. When they're dry, instinctively, he tries to generate more speed so he charges the line with foot speed that will inevitably cause him to lose his balance.

The loss of balance only happens when he feels the need to throw the ball harder.

Then, I'll make a suggestion about switching balls. My recommendation, plastic. Just like most people, his eyes become wide open with a look of shock on his face. It's simple, when a person reaches the pinnacle of their capability, take them back to their comfort zone. First, he needs to realize he'll be moving at least 15 boards right. Eyes wide open again.

I leave him alone.

When I come back to him later, he's grinning from ear to ear. From my viewpoint, his feet are under him again. He is making quality shots. He comments, it's been a long time since bowling felt that easy. Also, because of where he is playing he does not need to be so much up the back of the ball. He can point his thumb toward the pocket.

There is nothing wrong with simplifying the release. The suitcase is the only release technique good bowlers utilized until around the 70's. If it allows to remain relatively stable throughout the approach and at the point of release, then, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. If it takes plastic to make it happen, so be it.

Hitting the pocket consistently with anything is more effective than hitting the pocket sometimes.


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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:06 pm Post Number: #75 Post
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Here are some photos showing where and how the ball is held by me.
Later when I get home from work I will take a close up photo of the ball hanging in my hand.


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Wed May 16, 2018 9:41 pm Post Number: #76 Post
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With a good fit for a fingertip, the ball just sits in your palm. Only pressure I feel is when I hit up on it. I’d at least experiment with it on a ball you don’t use anymore

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:12 am Post Number: #77 Post
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44boyd wrote:
With a good fit for a fingertip, the ball just sits in your palm. Only pressure I feel is when I hit up on it. I’d at least experiment with it on a ball you don’t use anymore

-Do you use forward pitch in fingers or thumb?
-Do you use textured tape or cork in the front of the thumbhole?
-Do you use a thumb-slug, or finger inserts, or just drill into the ball for all holes?

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:22 am Post Number: #78 Post
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Nord, you're not even close to fully seated in the ball.
A good fit is fully seated to the KNUCKLE of the thumb, not above.
I'll be honest Nord, I think you can throw it 3/4.
We've been down this road before, get a ball fit finger tip and 3/4, experiment with keeping your hand behind the ball and just rolling it off your fingertips. Start with a light ball to practice with. Thumb points in the direction of the pins throughout the swing and you roll it off your hand.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:28 am Post Number: #79 Post
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TomaHawk wrote:
There is nothing wrong with Nord's bowling technique. He repeats the same thing over and over. The suitcase release is easily, the most repeatable method of getting a ball onto the lane. It's like bunting a baseball, just get the ball on the ground.


Thats great. Bunting guarantees you'll never hit a homerun in your life.
You're one dimensional and a 1 trick pony that waits for a situation to come to you rather than adjusting.
"Bunting" in bowling will amount to something slightly more than nothing in the modern game which is complex and based on adjusting to the lane.

If you're worth your salt as a coach, you thrive on improving others, and watching them enjoy the sport more, not just passing them off as "good enough".

Nord has it in him to be better and thats what im pursuing here.

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 Post subject: Re: Help Nord Score On House Shots
 Posted: Thu May 17, 2018 1:54 am Post Number: #80 Post
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MegaMav wrote:
Nord, you're not even close to fully seated in the ball.
A good fit is fully seated to the KNUCKLE of the thumb, not above.
I'll be honest Nord, I think you can throw it 3/4.
We've been down this road before, get a ball fit finger tip and 3/4, experiment with keeping your hand behind the ball and just rolling it off your fingertips. Start with a light ball to practice with. Thumb points in the direction of the pins throughout the swing and you roll it off your hand.

I understand the concept of a 3/4 roller release and the modern release which is much more heavy with the addition of the bent arm unloading at the bottom to increase the roll off the hand.
I have watched videos and played around with a nerf ball and a softball and I can definitely just let the ball just roll off the fingers.
One of my favorite modern rollers is Bill O'Neil, the ball just really comes off his hand so heavy.
Jakob Butturff is another player who is very unconventional but does really let that ball just roll off that cocked hand when he unloads it.
And one of smoothest ball releases, that is so heavy rolling, is the way Sin Li Jane rolls it, wow.
I want her roll!
But first I will need a light ball, say 12 lbs to start and a perfect fit so it is just attached to my hand with zero squeeze pressure and rolls off.
The big problem is the perfect fit thing.
I need someone 100% reliable who knows all the modern fitting techniques and understands I am trying to move 180 degrees from where I am.
It scares me to consider all the pain coming back from another crappy fitting.
I don't want to be back where I was 6 years ago, that was a nightmare.

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Rev rate: 150
Ball speed: 10.5 mph at the Pin Deck
Composite Average: 175
High Game: 259 bowled with Billy Hardwick rubber ball. The back 9.
High Series: 667 bowled with the Radical Jackpot.


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