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 Post subject: Carry Questions
 Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:27 pm Post Number: #1 Post
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Well, last night was another night of awful carry, and I'm trying to figure out exactly what's going on and the proper solution.

Even first thing on the fresh, balls were just not finishing on the back end. Throughout the evening, there were many very weak hits; blower 7 pins (for right handers), an 8-10 by my anchor and I myself almost left the sour apple (with a Hyper Cell!). :o

When I checked the scores in the paper this morning, there were only four 700 series, when there is usually 12 to 15. When I got my email update from leaguesecretary.com, I saw that overall scores were lower than usual.

So, what do you think the issue was that ball reaction was not good over the entire league (16 teams)? The outside seven boards of the Stone Street pattern doesn't have much oil, but balls just did not seem to want to hook back from there, at least until game 3. I used a Pitch Blue going straight up seven for about half a game in game three, and it hooked and carried. I put it away once I started going high, as I felt once I started putting the ball down in the oil things would get funky.

Since I had no problem getting my Pitch Blue to hook and carry, I don't think it was tight outside. I'm thinking that right of the oil line had little oil on it and balls in that area too long were just dying and hitting like marshmallows. What's weird is I, and others who were going from the oil out to the dry, had little margin of error. Shots I tugged didn't hold at all, and shots I got too wide didn't finish.

I honestly don't know how I should set my equipment up. You almost are forced to go from the oil to the dry, as from board 2 to 7 is very flat with little oil, and 12 to 12 is flat with a lot of oil. What's interesting is the top guy last night (780) plays one shot, and that's straight up 7 or 8 with a lot of speed and no hand. My (and his) pso told me his equipment is set up for this kind of a shot.

I'd love to be able to play this shot, but I just don't have the ball speed anymore. When I tried it earlier in the season with my Rumble at 5,000 and polish, I had a good reaction for a whole half a game. Then it started hitting weak. This guy will have a number of weak hits too over three games, but he still manages to strike. I don't think I've ever seen him leave a pocket split.

What would you recommend for me? About the fastest I can throw it with control is about 15.5 on the monitor. I currently have a Hyper Cell, and Rumble and a Pitch Blue. I do have a ball spinner and can put any surface on my stuff.

I concur with the comment my anchor made last night: "It's not fun anymore." I'd just love to have some predictable, consistent ball reaction and carry.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:19 pm Post Number: #2 Post
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Could be any of a number of things, or even a combination, but I'm guessing that for some reason the stripping wasn't done correctly. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 5:55 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Could be any of a number of things, or even a combination, but I'm guessing that for some reason the stripping wasn't done correctly. -- JohnP


Yea, that's pretty much what I'm thinking. What's puzzling to me is I thought this issue would go away with the purchase of a new Flex lane machine. But, the back ends are pretty much like they've always been. I had the same issues at the last house I bowled at for ten seasons. I always thought it was me, until I went to get remeasured in 2011 at one of the Bower family centers, and when I bowled there on fresh oil, I had correct ball motion. I remember thinking to myself, "wow, it's not me."

Now the big question is, what, if anything, can be done to have a little more back end? My first experiment is going to be putting my equipment at the "1500 polished" surface. Yes, I know I won't get it like it is from the Storm factory, but if it works, that's all I care about. If it doesn't, it will be back to the drawing board. I know they're not going to change anything on the lanes themselves, so it's going to be my responsibility to figure it out, with the help of the knowledgeable people on this site.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:18 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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Perhaps what your looking for is not there when your looking for it ...

Until then, take solace in the fact that it sounds like you are far from alone.

Used to be in baseball, there were parks where the ball carried and some where it did not.
Go with the flow, don't spit into the wind ...



Hang in there, remember, you only need to run faster than the other guy, not the best that's chasing the crowd ...

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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:36 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Was there a change in the weather? Often when the weather changes, the bowlers don't, and scores plummet.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:05 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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RobMautner wrote:
Was there a change in the weather? Often when the weather changes, the bowlers don't, and scores plummet.


It was a bit colder than usual Rob, but I have no idea if and how that would have changed things. I was very surprised that the leagues top lefty, who has competed professionally, only shot 570. One would think that he would be able to adjust, especially since he was the only bowler on the left side. I wasn't close enough to watch him, so I have no idea why he scored so low.

So, just how can the weather affect the conditions? This is not new to me, but I really don't know what changes with temperature or humidity. My biggest experience with this was the Pennsylvania State Tournament north of Pittsburgh back in 2004. My team went the first weekend of April, and it was unseasonably warm that day. The lanes were super tight with NO room for error. I was lucky enough to have the second high series--590-something. High series was a low 600. The 2003 all-events winner didn't even break 400. Yet, when I checked scores online throughout the tournament, there were gobs of 700 series. Something was different when we bowled, and I've always blamed the weather.

I wonder if anyone has done any kind of study on just how the various variables of the weather affect lane conditions. If so, I'd love to read it and learn.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:05 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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PJAPE - Were you at Clearview for this league? If so, they use Twister pins; they are notoriusly difficult to carry, even on very good hits.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:29 pm Post Number: #8 Post
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Mikepetrosky wrote:
PJAPE - Were you at Clearview for this league? If so, they use Twister pins; they are notoriusly difficult to carry, even on very good hits.


No Mike, my league is at Dutch.

BTW, did Clearview use the Twister pins this last weekend? If so, this makes BL's series even more impressive. Did you two win?


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:06 pm Post Number: #9 Post
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pjape wrote:
So, what do you think the issue was that ball reaction was not good over the entire league (16 teams)? The outside seven boards of the Stone Street pattern doesn't have much oil, but balls just did not seem to want to hook back from there, at least until game 3. I used a Pitch Blue going straight up seven for about half a game in game three, and it hooked and carried. I put it away once I started going high, as I felt once I started putting the ball down in the oil things would get funky.


If the entire league was struggling, it definitely sounds environmental or poor stripping. Kegel machines are high tech, but not fool proof. The detergent ratio is controlled by a little siphon pump that can get clogged with soap and mess up the ratio. Our center has switched to hand mixing because the pump has been erratic.

That said, if you could hook and carry in game 3 (with low flare urethane) - why put the ball down? Did you try a little loft? Look further down lane and project? Did you try a small move left? Just curious.

Personally, I tend to stay with a ball for too long and try and manipulate it into carrying - but it seems like your half a game of good carry might have been sustained a little longer. Although I often play too conservative in league, I like to stay on the same pair afterwards and practice/experiment. Make the bigger moves, play with equipment - in order to see what I might have done differently.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Tue Nov 14, 2017 10:27 pm Post Number: #10 Post
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stevespo wrote:

If the entire league was struggling, it definitely sounds environmental or poor stripping. Kegel machines are high tech, but not fool proof. The detergent ratio is controlled by a little siphon pump that can get clogged with soap and mess up the ratio. Our center has switched to hand mixing because the pump has been erratic.

That said, if you could hook and carry in game 3 (with low flare urethane) - why put the ball down? Did you try a little loft? Look further down lane and project? Did you try a small move left? Just curious.

Personally, I tend to stay with a ball for too long and try and manipulate it into carrying - but it seems like your half a game of good carry might have been sustained a little longer. Although I often play too conservative in league, I like to stay on the same pair afterwards and practice/experiment. Make the bigger moves, play with equipment - in order to see what I might have done differently.

Steve


You're right Steve, I should have stayed with it a bit longer. My issue with the urethane ball is I haven't been able to practice with it very much, so I'm not sure how it's going to react, especially when I set it down where there's oil. Lofting isn't really in my arsenal these days (too old!).

During one of my lessons this summer, the owner told me how the new machine goes through the pins, then comes forward a bit, then goes back, and when it does this it's cleaning. Silly me, I expected it to do the last 15-20 feet, but it only did so on the pin deck itself. So, I really don't know when and how it's cleaning the back end. I've watched enough PBA tournaments to know when they start out on the fresh, the back ends fly (well, maybe except the Badger). I never see this on my house shot.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 4:24 pm Post Number: #11 Post
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Even if a cleaning/polishing agent is approved for use during competition you are not allowed to use it on a spinner. See the quote posted below from the Commonly Asked Questions for Rule 18 in the USBC Rulebook. -- JohnP

18/1 When may I alter the surface of my bowling ball?
a. Cleaning – Cleaners approved for use any time may be utilized before, during or after certified competition; cleaners approved for only before and after competition may only be used during these times. The use of a ball spinner is prohibited during competition.

b. Sanding – You are permitted to sand the surface of your bowling balls prior to certified competition; however, the use of abrasives is strictly prohibited once the first ball is thrown in the competition.

c. Polishing – You are permitted to polish the surface of your bowling ball prior to certified competition. However, once tournament or league play begins, the use of a ball spinner is strictly prohibited.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 5:51 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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Yes they did have the Twisters in. Carry on good hits was very difficult.

Bryan's 834 was inspiring. He was just simply ON Saturday. I was the slacker at 666, crushing pocket hits every shot game 2 and 3 for 220ish and 230ish. Left 7 or 8 10 pins between those games. I have no regrets on any shot I threw. I'll walk away knowing I threw the ball very well, and made all my spares. Good day, overall.

I expect to repeat as County Scratch Doubles champs, 1500 is tough to beat. But official results are not posted yet, might not see them for several weeks.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 6:02 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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pjape wrote:
During one of my lessons this summer, the owner told me how the new machine goes through the pins, then comes forward a bit, then goes back, and when it does this it's cleaning. Silly me, I expected it to do the last 15-20 feet, but it only did so on the pin deck itself. So, I really don't know when and how it's cleaning the back end. I've watched enough PBA tournaments to know when they start out on the fresh, the back ends fly (well, maybe except the Badger). I never see this on my house shot.


My understanding is that the machine cleans more than just the pin deck.

I could be wrong, but it should be stripping the entire lane before applying fresh conditioner. Occasionally, our lane guy will burn a pair, or double strip the entire house and that's when the back ends really fly! They will also hand clean pin decks periodically and carry also improves afterwards.

From week to week, our reaction is very consistent, but sometimes it does play tighter than others. Very rarely does the machine actually malfunction, but you know when it does because you'd swear someone put down the US Open by mistake. The scores drop 20-30+ pins for everyone.

From the Kegel website: "Note: With the FLEX lane machine, the ability to weaken the cleaner ratio mix ONLY on the back-end is an option to control back-end ball motion. The FLEX lane machine can keep a strong cleaner mix in the front part of the lane where it is needed."

Given the sophistication of modern lane machines, I'd bet that the stripping is programmable - just like the application of conditioner. Perhaps your center needs to strengthen the cleaner ratio from front to back, or perhaps just on the back? See if they'll tweak the recipe and run an experiment for you on a pair during off-hours...

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2017 8:26 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Mikepetrosky wrote:
Yes they did have the Twisters in. Carry on good hits was very difficult.

Bryan's 834 was inspiring. He was just simply ON Saturday. I was the slacker at 666, crushing pocket hits every shot game 2 and 3 for 220ish and 230ish. Left 7 or 8 10 pins between those games. I have no regrets on any shot I threw. I'll walk away knowing I threw the ball very well, and made all my spares. Good day, overall.

I expect to repeat as County Scratch Doubles champs, 1500 is tough to beat. But official results are not posted yet, might not see them for several weeks.


I remember when Bryan joined the now defunct Suburban Classic league on Friday nights at Leisure. I think he was just out of high school, and his ball was just devastating. I don't know where he picked up the two-handed style, as this was before Belmo and Osku came out on tour. He was a natural at it. I think having the flexibility of Gumby helps. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:42 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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Last night the saga continued. I checked the paper for scores this morning, and there were only three 700's. The guy who shot 780 last week shot 765. The second was buy a guy who throws it outside with medium speed and little rotation. The third was by a female who is very accurate, but has no hand and little speed. I've never seen her left of ten.

I ended up throwing my Hyper Cell at 500/4000 and it hit like a freaking tank. I struggle getting into the swing on time, but I did much better last night, and as a result my speed was up, and it was evident my rev rate was much higher. So, you can imagine my shock when in the first frame of game three I missed about a board right, and my ball hit the pocket flush and I left a 5-7 split. At least I converted it. I would have been in the 640's, except for the fact that I missed five spares. :x

While I was watching the WSOB yesterday, Rash, who was in the announce booth, mentioned something that intrigued me very much. He said that during the tournament (I don't remember if he mentioned what pattern) Ciminelli left both the 5-10 and the 7-9 split. I'm thinking, how on earth does someone with the rev rate and power Ryan has leave pocket splits? This came to my mind when I watched a guy on the pair to my left, who has a very high rev rate, leave an 8-10 split. I know it was the lane because he struggled on the right lane all night, but he had very few non strikes on the left lane.

So, my question is, what can contribute to pocket splits that might not be the fault of the bowler? Sure, it's easy to blame the bowler at the league level, but what about top pros? I'm more and more convinced that there's something not right about the oil pattern that's causing such lousy carry. The most important thing though is, what can be done about it, and is the owner willing to do it. He bowls on the league himself, so it affects him too.

I'm taking a vacation day on Black Friday, and I'm planning on doing some videotaping of myself. I'm tempted to also video my ball going down the lane so some of you can watch my ball reaction and give suggestions on what might be the issue, and what I can do to combat it.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 12:05 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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I think we need to hear what Sir. Newton has to say about this:

http://www.kegel.net/wpa/2017/11/8/the- ... -different

Now, the oil pattern is only a fraction of the problem with your carry. You can play a tournament on the same pattern all week, and you have Kegel itself to oil and fix the machine. You still see a big differers in play and carry through out the week, and even through out one day. You can even see changes in lane-layout (topography) between to rounds that starts with fresh oil every time.

Sadly, this sport of bowling is already won when you pick you lane card, before you even roll the ball. It is the lane's topography in relation to the pattern and your release specs that destine if you win or not.

So, it is not the laneman, it is not the FLEX Machine and it is not the oilpattern, if you want to blame someone it is the tournament director who put you on that lane. It is the lane itself. This problem (or variable in bowling) come to be proven when we did convert the lanes from wood to synthetics.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:31 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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PinChurch wrote:
I think we need to hear what Sir. Newton has to say about this:

http://www.kegel.net/wpa/2017/11/8/the- ... -different

Now, the oil pattern is only a fraction of the problem with your carry. You can play a tournament on the same pattern all week, and you have Kegel itself to oil and fix the machine. You still see a big differers in play and carry through out the week, and even through out one day. You can even see changes in lane-layout (topography) between to rounds that starts with fresh oil every time.

Sadly, this sport of bowling is already won when you pick you lane card, before you even roll the ball. It is the lane's topography in relation to the pattern and your release specs that destine if you win or not.

So, it is not the laneman, it is not the FLEX Machine and it is not the oilpattern, if you want to blame someone it is the tournament director who put you on that lane. It is the lane itself. This problem (or variable in bowling) come to be proven when we did convert the lanes from wood to synthetics.


Thanks for the link. That was a very informative article. The house I bowl at now, and the house I bowled for ten seasons both installed synthetic lanes over their old wood lanes. I understand why my ball roll and carry were so much better when I bowled at the house where I went to have my hand remeasured. This house had a fire several years before and was completely rebuilt. Obviously, the synthetic lanes were not built over wood lanes.

I'm now trying to figure out just what type topography we have. I can see characteristics of crowned lanes, but also some of the seagull type. We definitely don't have depressed lanes. What makes it more difficult to figure out is you just can't go by the ball reaction of a lot of the typical league bowlers. One might play the lane "wrong," but they get away with it by playing so slow that it works. Another might get away with it by having a 150 rev rate.

Last year's top two averages played the lanes completely different. One played forth or fifth arrow and swung the ball, the other played hard and straight right up the 8 board. They finished just 7 pins apart over 99 games (239)! What's very interesting is this year the straight guy is at 234, and the hooking guy is at 214.

My problem is I can't do either. I don't have enough ball speed to play the outside shot, and I can't hook the ball enough from inside. I seem to be stuck in tweener land and can't find anything that works. The two things that elude me are carry and margin of error. I'm open to any suggestions with lane play and surface to combat this.


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 3:54 pm Post Number: #18 Post
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pjape wrote:
My problem is I can't do either. I don't have enough ball speed to play the outside shot, and I can't hook the ball enough from inside. I seem to be stuck in tweener land and can't find anything that works.


Go less cover and closer to the friction.
Think Rack Attack Pearl.

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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 8:21 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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MegaMav wrote:

Go less cover and closer to the friction.
Think Rack Attack Pearl.


Eric, since buying a new ball is out of the question (financially), would you please give your suggestion on how to set up my Roto Grip Rumble? Since the Rack Attack Pearl is 500/royal compound/royal shine, would it work doing 500/2000/Reacta-Shine? Maybe 30 seconds on the 500 and 10 on the 2,000?

Thanks!


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 Post subject: Re: Carry Questions
 Posted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:23 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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Its the reduced dynamics along with the weaker cover.
Its not just cover prep alone.

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