Ball Reaction/Rotation

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pjape
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Ball Reaction/Rotation

Post by pjape »

I thought I'd start a new thread, lest any of the experts here miss it.

I've been analyzing my struggles with ball reaction this season thus far, and I just watched a video of myself from back in March. I clearly see what my coach told me this summer, and that's my lack of rotation.

Do you all think that on a typical house shot, getting a good ball reaction will be difficult with low rotation and low ball speed? I think that's my problem. I'm probably only at about 25 to 30 degrees. I'd like to get up to at least 60. Correct me if I'm wrong, but won't I have more room for error with higher rotation? It seems sometimes if I miss a smidge left, it's through the nose; a bit right, it's a bucket. I'm thinking, "I thought house shots were supposed to be easy."

I'd also appreciate any tips you can give me to increase my rotation. Almost 26 years of bowling with low rotation is probably going to be tough to change, but I'm up for the challenge. During one of my coaching sessions this summer, I thought I was turning the living crap out of the ball, but my coach said it was a little more, but still not nearly enough. Unfortunately we never got into any specific tips or drills to accomplish this. It's tough to do on a normal delivery since, of course, you can't see your release while bowling.

Thanks!!
RobMautner
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Re: Ball Reaction/Rotation

Post by RobMautner »

Usually, a lack of rotation is associated with a lack of axis tilt. When you don't have much tilt, you tend to track the ball very near your thumbhole and your finger holes. This forward roll causes the ball to read the lane early, making the "easy" typical house shot much harder. If you can increase your tilt, your rotation should increase along with it. To do this, learn to feel the difference between major pressure on your ring finger (forward roll) and more pressure on your middle finger. One way to do this its to start with different hand positions. Personally, I start with my hand below the ball for more forward roll, and my hand on the side of the ball at set-up, coming behind the ball at the top of the backswing, and returning to the side of the ball at the FINISH of the release. Be careful not to over-turn early, or you will lose power rather than gaining it. I hope this helps.
pjape
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Re: Ball Reaction/Rotation

Post by pjape »

RobMautner wrote:Usually, a lack of rotation is associated with a lack of axis tilt. When you don't have much tilt, you tend to track the ball very near your thumbhole and your finger holes. This forward roll causes the ball to read the lane early, making the "easy" typical house shot much harder. If you can increase your tilt, your rotation should increase along with it. To do this, learn to feel the difference between major pressure on your ring finger (forward roll) and more pressure on your middle finger. One way to do this its to start with different hand positions. Personally, I start with my hand below the ball for more forward roll, and my hand on the side of the ball at set-up, coming behind the ball at the top of the backswing, and returning to the side of the ball at the FINISH of the release. Be careful not to over-turn early, or you will lose power rather than gaining it. I hope this helps.
Thanks Rob. In the past, I was measured at 17* (by Mo), which is sufficient tilt. I think this has changed because of some of the changes I have made, specifically too relaxed a wrist in my effort to free up my swing and eliminate grab. Once I thought about it, I have noticed that my track is higher than in the past. I'm also pretty certain that my fingers are too far above the equator of the ball at release.

I'm going to work on firming up my wrist and see if that helps both my tilt and rotation.

Thanks!
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Re: Ball Reaction/Rotation

Post by TonyPR »

You can practice your release by isolating it doing a finish position drill. First mark your PAP with white tape so you can actually see your tilt and rotation as the ball goes down the lane. Get into your finish position (the position you get to when releasing the ball), I recommend having the ball under your head. Lift the ball from the approach, engage your wrist, give it a little push forward, let it go back and then forward again by itself and release. One of the good things about this drill is that you can keep your eyes focused on what is going on with your hand. When doing this drill look at your hand, forget about hitting a target or the pins, if you achieve the release you want and the ball goes into the gutter no problem, it most likely will as you will be rolling it slowly. Remember only a small push forward to get it started.

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LookingForALeftyWall
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Re: Ball Reaction/Rotation

Post by LookingForALeftyWall »

pjape wrote:Do you all think that on a typical house shot, getting a good ball reaction will be difficult with low rotation and low ball speed?
It may not help to get good ball reaction, however, a friend of mine averages high 220's with very low rotation and low ball speed. So it does not seems to be a scoring killer. And even though he is lacking in rotation, speed, and also revs on top of that, he is very accurate and has a thorough understanding of how the ball should go through the pins. Those 2 qualities top other deficiencies that he may be perceived to have.
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Re: Ball Reaction/Rotation

Post by SomyP »

For me personally I like to utilize Ron Clifton's finger dancing. I normally tuck my pinky, but my index finger will be the deciding factor on how much rotation I create. For instance if I want more rotation I'll spread my index finger as far as possible so as to get my hand to come around the side of the ball more. If I want to roll it heavier I'll bring the finger in closer to the middle finger and try to keep my hand up the back of the ball.

There is no right or wrong when it comes to rotation. With the technology we have today we can make someone who has low tilt, low revs, and low rotation a 220 average bowler by increasing their accuracy, spare shooting, and giving the bowler the right ball to use. Someone like me who's a high speed, high rev bowler barely averages 200 on a house shot because I'm sacrificing accuracy for power.
pjape
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Re: Ball Reaction/Rotation

Post by pjape »

I just got back from practicing four games, I'm I absolutely right about more rotation. Last night I was practicing this into my sofa cushion, and I put it into practice on the lanes this afternoon.

I was able to practice on a fresh condition, and my ball reaction was SO much better. Pulled shots held better and shots thrown wide came back. I had a few shots that were ridiculously wide, and only left a weak ten.

The last game I threw urethane (Pitch Blue) and even with a chopped spare I still had a 225. Best of all, I had good length and hook on the backend.

The two big things I learned is to turn with the hand, NOT the arm. I must have good timing or it ruins everything. When I'm late I don't have time to get around the ball, plus I tend to yank it. I also can't have as much surface on my stuff. My Rumble was at 1,000, and I had to start out at 15 at the arrows, so I think I'll put it back up to the box surface of 2,000.

I have to give credit to what I learned by reading a BTM article by Ron Clifton on using more rotation as opposed to "working the inside of the ball," which doesn't work as well when the mid-lanes dry up. At my age, I think I'll do better trying to emulate a PDW type of release as opposed to the more modern release. We'll see how things go on Thursday.
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Re: Ball Reaction/Rotation

Post by LittleTiger »

Just to sharing my learnings about this thing...

pjape wrote:Do you all think that on a typical house shot, getting a good ball reaction will be difficult with low rotation and low ball speed? I think that's my problem. I'm probably only at about 25 to 30 degrees. I'd like to get up to at least 60.
I had earlier high rotation (about 60) together with low tilt, medium rev rate and low ball speed. That caused problem that all the my bowling balls had too skid/flip type of reaction.


Then I used quite long time to simulate with blueprint difference on skid/flip and full length roll.
Values what I used in these simulations was about:
Skid/flip: speed 15 mph, rotation 60, tilt 10, rev rate 330
Full length roll: speed 17 mph, rotation 45, tilt 10, rev rate 330
skid-flip_vs_full_length_roll.png
Notice difference on pocket shots percentage.


Based on that experience I have now be practicing to get more speed and less rotation to bowling ball.
And what I have learned is that full length roll is much easier to control so don't go too far with that one.
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pjape
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Re: Ball Reaction/Rotation

Post by pjape »

LittleTiger wrote:Just to sharing my learnings about this thing...



I had earlier high rotation (about 60) together with low tilt, medium rev rate and low ball speed. That caused problem that all the my bowling balls had too skid/flip type of reaction.


Then I used quite long time to simulate with blueprint difference on skid/flip and full length roll.
Values what I used in these simulations was about:
Skid/flip: speed 15 mph, rotation 60, tilt 10, rev rate 330
Full length roll: speed 17 mph, rotation 45, tilt 10, rev rate 330
skid-flip_vs_full_length_roll.png
Notice difference on pocket shots percentage.


Based on that experience I have now be practicing to get more speed and less rotation to bowling ball.
And what I have learned is that full length roll is much easier to control so don't go too far with that one.
Thanks! One difference is my normal tilt is 17*. Another thing I picked up from Ron Clifton is that if we increase rotation, we'll probably need to add more surface to the ball to avoid skid/flip. During my practice yesterday, I was using my Rumble at 1,000, which was actually a bit much. I think I'll try 2,000 (which is box finish) tomorrow in league. Our back ends aren't that crisp, so I'm hoping I'll not have any left turns on the back-end. This is pretty new to me, so I'll have to do some experimenting to get the best reaction. Still, I'd rather have the ball flip a bit too much than die and hit like a rotten pumpkin, which is what's been happening.
LittleTiger
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Re: Ball Reaction/Rotation

Post by LittleTiger »

pjape wrote:One difference is my normal tilt is 17*. Another thing I picked up from Ron Clifton is that if we increase rotation, we'll probably need to add more surface to the ball to avoid skid/flip.
Yes. There is of course many ways to solve that issue.
pjape wrote: This is pretty new to me, so I'll have to do some experimenting to get the best reaction.
Experimenting is of course good idea. It is only way to learn what works for you ;)
pjape wrote:Still, I'd rather have the ball flip a bit too much than die and hit like a rotten pumpkin, which is what's been happening.
What is too much btw depends of oil pattern and line which you like to bowl (more inside you play more angle you can have). When ball reaction is too skid/flip your speed control need to be very accurate. Litte bit too much speed will cause ball slide too far and then result normally is very ugly split...
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