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 Post subject: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:08 am Post Number: #1 Post
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I went bowling today and bowled on a fresh lane.

I am trying to use more then 1 point as a targeting system because of the launch angle issue. The question I have is this. I line up look at my target, look at where I want the ball to be at on the breakpoint then I repeat that and then I take my shot. The slight problem I have is that I am used to never taking my eyes off my target. Now I find myself sort of looking past the arrow as I throw.

What I do is look at the target, then the breakpoint board and if I can't see that then I also look at the bottom of the 6 pin then back to the breakpoint and back to the arrow. Then I try to visualize a line connecting them. Once I throw my ball, I have to take a step with my right foot and stand up and then move my head a bit side to side to see where the ball crosses at the furthest range finder to the right.

In general here are some problems or might be problems I see:


#1 I can draw a line with my eyes between the points when I am looking at the points. Once I take my eyes off that last point and try to shoot the Imaginary line in my head, it disappears and I concentrate on my first target point more. This might not be bad as it lines me up in the angle I need to be at? I don't like not being able to see that line in my head as I throw the ball though.

#2 I take my eyes off and up the lane when I throw at my target. I believe I do so trying to draw a line between the 2 points? Making sure I throw on that line?


I have watched the launch angle videos and I don't think that was explained or I could have missed it. I do know that doing this (using more then 1 point method) made a huge difference in what I did today (score etc) compared to what I have been doing before.

questions I have are this:

#1 Can anyone picture the imaginary line in their head as they throw the ball or is that just to line up in the right direction? I mean not before throwing it, as you are throwing it you can still see that line.

#2 Do you also feel yourself looking past your first point of where you target as you throw the ball?


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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 11:39 am Post Number: #2 Post
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1. What color do you want the line? Visualization is all about imagination. Another thing that can be done (with permission from the bowling center) is to place a long piece of painters tape from the arrows to the pattern exit set at the line/angle you want to practice and try to hit it. If not at the bowling center you could try using some football chalk line on a lawn/park and try to hit it rolling a shot put.

2. I imagine I am burning a spot at the arrows with my superman lazer vision, I only take my eyes off that spot as I follow the ball to the pattern exit and break point.

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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 3:17 pm Post Number: #3 Post
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krava wrote:
I went bowling today and bowled on a fresh lane.

I am trying to use more then 1 point as a targeting system because of the launch angle issue. The question I have is this. I line up look at my target, look at where I want the ball to be at on the breakpoint then I repeat that and then I take my shot. The slight problem I have is that I am used to never taking my eyes off my target. Now I find myself sort of looking past the arrow as I throw.

That's exactly what's supposed to happen. Hold a solid post position and allow your eyes to follow the ball's path from the target to the breakpoint.


Once I throw my ball, I have to take a step with my right foot and stand up (is this a physical issue or a lack of what knowledge as to what has to happen to be balanced at the line?)


In general here are some problems or might be problems I see:


#1 I can draw a line with my eyes between the points when I am looking at the points. Once I take my eyes off that last point and try to shoot the Imaginary line in my head, it disappears and I concentrate on my first target point more. This might not be bad as it lines me up in the angle I need to be at? I don't like not being able to see that line in my head as I throw the ball though.

While visualizing an intended line play to the breakpoint works for some, it isn't a cure all for everyone.

#2 I take my eyes off and up the lane when I throw at my target. I believe I do so trying to draw a line between the 2 points? Making sure I throw on that line?

Eyes following the ball path is a GOOD thing.


Proper body/swing alignment at address facilitates rolling the ball from your target at the arrows down the intended line of play towards your breakpoint.

Imaginary lines on the lane, I view as bandaids....body, swing alignment combined with proper footwork, a swing plane along the intended path gives us the desired results.


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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:07 pm Post Number: #4 Post
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"(is this a physical issue or a lack of what knowledge as to what has to happen to be balanced at the line?) "

After the ball is thrown I get out of the stance to stand up because I can't see the range finders in my stance after releasing the ball. After throwing it and it is out on the lane, I then get out of position (take a step with my right foot to the side) then I have to turn my head left and right to try to get the glare away from the range finders and try to find the locating where it is. It isn't a quick side to side head turn, it is more of if you saw someone doing it they are looking for something but can't find it kind of head turn if that makes more since. The head turning isn't an issue it is the way I have to deal with it to try to see.

I don't think I made myself clear to well. I don't actually see a painted color line it is more of an angle issue. A good example would be playing pool. You use angles when you do that but you don't actually see a color line.

Let me try to explain better. I see the two points I want to throw the ball between those 2 points but when I go back to the first point I lose track of the 2nd point but I am in line with how I would do that. In pool you can see both the points at the same time usually (been years since played pool). The distance is too great in bowling to see both points at the same time atleast to me. I could be messing up and trying to angle my body in that line instead of keeping straight. All I know is that it is a lot easier to see where that ball crosses where the range finder is.

When I was with Suzie she told me to hit my target and then find where it hits the range finder at. She didn't say use the range finder as a 2nd target or a board by the range finder as a 2nd target. When I was with her I just threw the ball over the arrow and then attempted to find where the range finder was. WIth this method I have an idea where it is most of the time and not where it is last minute.

I am trying to explain the best way I can hopefully it makes some since. I think my pool reference is better then the line reference. In pool I don't see a real line, I can imagine in my head the ball shooting straight into the other ball and where it would be at but there is never a solid line. That is the best I can explain it.


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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 5:29 pm Post Number: #5 Post
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Way too much information!

I seldom read your post........way too long and by the time I get to the end I forgot what the point was.

I am reaching out to HELP you.

Help me help you!

Again, I ask this simple question:

When you are at your finish position at the foul line, can you:
1) See your target at the arrows?
2) Can you then shift your eyes towards the down lane range finder without moving your feet?

Please respond to questions 1 & 2 with singular response: Yes or No

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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:08 pm Post Number: #6 Post
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Jim - In previous posts krava has told us he has some serious vision problems. -- JohnP


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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:23 pm Post Number: #7 Post
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JohnP wrote:
Jim - In previous posts krava has told us he has some serious vision problems. -- JohnP


Thanks, John.
That's why I asked him for two simple replies....no biblographies.
If eye sight is a problem:

1) Then he is wasting his time trying to follow the ball down the lane.
2) Falling off to the right to watch the ball path is counter productive.
3) He does seem to be okay looking at his target at the arrows.
3) With correct body & swing alignment at address, the breakpoint will take care of its self-provided:

He picks the correct breakpoint
Positions himself correctly at address, then

He walks towards the target
Swings towards the target
Releases towards the target

These were the points I wanted him to understand.

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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:23 am Post Number: #8 Post
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Lol......oh my goodness....


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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 3:11 am Post Number: #9 Post
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I thought Krava once said he could throw within 1-2 board difference

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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:12 am Post Number: #10 Post
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Yes JMerrell I did see the target and the rangefinder in my stance today. What helped was there was the reflection of the RED pin setter count thing or something there that reflected back onto the lane 1 board right of the rangefinder.


Last edited by krava on Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:27 am Post Number: #11 Post
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Being within 1 or 2 boards doesn't do any good when the angle is off. I went again today. Game 1 and 2 were really good no missed spares and more strikes then I had in a row in a long time. Game 3 things went bad. I was on 1 lane and not 2. My ball started going left before it would hit the mark at the rangefinder. 1/2 board moves didn't work this time. Now the question becomes did I throw the ball correctly in the line that I wanted or did I encounter early friction pulling my ball left. Having 2 marks rasies other questions. If the ball doesn't make it to the breakpoint and goes left, you have to ask yourself did I pull the ball left a little. If the answer is no and you feel that you threw the ball in the intended line then it is time to move. I believe it is easier to tell when you encounter friction using these 2 points though then it is 1 point. I believe using the rangefinder and 2 points will lead to bigger moves over the smaller ones I am so used to.

Remember I am not used to using the rangefinder period, I am used to looking at the mark, hitting it and then judging if the ball went far enough right so it will be in the pocket. I never looked or kept track of the breakpoint or nothing. I just hit the mark throw and watch and see if it went left or right. If it went right I move right, if left then move left.

Now I am learning the importance of the breakpoint. I believe the most important single aspect (if you had to just list 1) is making sure you hit your intended breakpoint. That is more important then ball speed, revs, angle etc.

watching the breakpoint (right around the rangefinders) makes things alot easier now I believe. I don't even have to look at the pins, I can see if I hit my breakpoint and if I don't I know I am in trouble. But in all 3 games not once did I even see how the ball exited the pin deck. I was so caught up on that , that I forgot to remember to watch that also.


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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:04 pm Post Number: #12 Post
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You stated: "But in all 3 games not once did I even see how the ball exited the pin deck".


999 out of a 1000 people never watch to see where the ball exits the pin deck, you are trying to make the game of bowling to complex.

Beyond the foul line, bowling is a science. From stance to release is an artistic and creative form, develop what works for you and enjoy the game.

Avoid the paralysis by analysis state.

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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 1:16 pm Post Number: #13 Post
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krava wrote:
Yes JMerrell I did see the target and the rangefinder in my stance today. What helped was there was the reflection of the RED pin setter count thing or something there that reflected back onto the lane 1 board right of the rangefinder.


This was an improvement and probably a difficult task for you. As I asked for only a simple yes or no response.

Everything highlighted in yellow above was extraneous information.

In your next post, use a similar approach......write in down on paper first.

Then, as you re-read it delete all the information that is overkill.

Make your post short and to the point.

Then perhaps, you won't get so many people giving you negative ratings.

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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 4:11 pm Post Number: #14 Post
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Jim's knowledge and power of observation are enviable.
Within this thread, Jim has imparted a more important lesson transcending bowling x's and o's.
More than a coach, a top notch person.

By the way coach, congratulations on cracking the 1,000 point barrier, thousands less than you deserve.

krava, the late Rolf Gauger, (gentleman, coach, instructor, writer, pro shop operator) told me that he always had his wife read his articles. This would help him clarify and refine his text.
If you have someone you can bounce your writing on, that would help. Better yet, the less they know about bowling the better.
I too have a tendency to write too much.
Consider writing first to a word document.
Perhaps start with an outline.
Sometimes, we have so much we want to say, it wants to rush out like water over a dam.
Try controlling the flow.

Thanks again to Jim for Bowling and Humanity lessons.

Cheerio!

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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 7:20 pm Post Number: #15 Post
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I will try to keep my post down. I was trying to avoid all the questions. 1 question would have been, How come now you can see the rangefinders and before you couldn't. I try to provide as much info as possible to avoid all the questions I might get etc but I guess people can ask if I don't provide enough info. I have alot to work on with this new system and thanks for the help


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 Post subject: establishing a 2nd point when you don't know lane pattern
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:17 pm Post Number: #16 Post
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I will try to keep this as simple as I can. Lets say that you bowl where no one knows the lane pattern. What are the steps to take to establish the 2nd targeting point? See if the following is correct.

#1 Watch someone bowl if possible to give you an idea if it is a short, medium or long oil pattern. Also watch and see how strong the back ends are etc. What your trying to do is trying to find the exit point where the ball stops skidding and starts to turn left.(make that the 2nd target point or atleast somewhere on a horicontal line there)

#2 With the general idea of how you should play the lane in your head, pick your 1st target point at the arrows and then from #1 get a good idea where the exit point is and use that point in reference to one of the range finders on the right and start with that as your "line"

#3 if you throw the ball and hit your 2 points and the ball doesn't make it to the pocket but pretty close to it, then move the 2nd point a board left or however much you believe you need to. If you move the 2nd target a board left and you hit both points and the ball jumps left and misses the pocket then move yor feet a board left and keep those 2 new points and see what happens. if that doesn't hit the pocket then it might be time to get a new line or something.

We are assuming this is a flat hard pattern in the above. The problem practicing this is that you have to not know what pattern you are playing on or how long the oil is. That is where the sport league comes into play and is nice but if you don't have one the only thing you can do is hand the lane man maybe 3 or 4 patterns and tell him to pick one not let you know about it and try it out and try to figure it out.


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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 11:47 pm Post Number: #17 Post
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa2FBWCuyJw

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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:19 am Post Number: #18 Post
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krava wrote:
I will try to keep this as simple as I can. Lets say that you bowl where no one knows the lane pattern. What are the steps to take to establish the 2nd targeting point?


You should read the Kegel article:
Understanding 3 Point Targeting with Quiet Eye in 7 Easy Steps. By Rick Wiltse

http://www.kegel.net/inside-line/2016/3/14/0r9ujejc03p8bsbko5ennrk4tpicv0

It's simple and basically tells you how to find your two points.

3-Point Targeting: Teen Masters Skill Experience video #7 in a series of 10 from the experts at the Kegel Training Center.
With Rick Wiltse

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Last edited by bowl1820 on Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:53 pm Post Number: #19 Post
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Thanks 44boyd I watched it but all I got out of it was he starts from the furtherest place right that hooks. I do that without thinking of it. I usually try going up 8 and then moving inside.

Bowl1820 I don't think I have read that before but I have saw the video on it a few times. Reading it is alot easier then watching the video. I understand completely what is written there in its entireity. The problem is that this article assumes you want a completely straight line going straight up the boards. What if you have some angle in it? THe video if I remember correctly did alow for the angle. I have to go back and watch it since that writing makes more since. I never knew what the quiet eye was refering to until I read that.

The article assumes that if you do what they say and throw the ball straight down the line it won't hook to soon. you might have too much surface not enough etc. If you have too much surface then you might have to move a little left and make sure you hit the mark they are telling you on the pl-31 thing then that will change the angle and which part of the pins you are looking at on the quiet eye. (I do remember them changing the quiet eye pin in the video. I have to go back and watch since I understand this now).


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 Post subject: Re: Using more then 1 point targeting system help
 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:12 pm Post Number: #20 Post
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krava wrote:
I understand completely what is written there in its entirety. The problem is that this article assumes you want a completely straight line going straight up the boards.


You didn't understand completely what is written there in its entirety. It's not assuming you want a completely straight line going straight up the boards or the ball won't hook too soon.

It's giving you starting target line, Which you will try and if you miss the pocket adjust (Shift) accordingly to compensate .

Excerpt Step 7 – Drift and Shift:
" Finally, if you roll the ball down the intended target line and you don’t hit the pocket, you will need to make an adjustment or “Shift” such as a 2 and 1 move (2 boards with your feet and 1 board with your eyes) to hit the pocket. Continue to adjust as oil depletion occurs on the lane and your ball motion changes"


The other 3-Point Targeting with Quiet Eye video for reference.


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