Help with Tilt

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junebugfan
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Posts: 50
Joined: January 17th, 2011, 10:23 pm
THS Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: No Clue
Speed: 15.6-17.2 Camera
Rev Rate: 1
Axis Tilt: Bad
Axis Rotation: Yes
Heavy Oil Ball: 919c
Medium Oil Ball: Mutant Cell
Light Oil Ball: Plastic
Preferred Company: Track
Location: Nashville, TN

Help with Tilt

Post by junebugfan »

Can anyone here give me any suggestions to help me with my excessively high tilt? I have posted about this before but I still haven't been able to correct the problem.

I am a relatively low-rev player & somewhat speed dominant, so my high tilt is exacerbating my lack of ball reaction. I have tried everything - different releases & hand positions, staying more behind the ball, different footwork/foot speed, different body/spine positions, etc. You name it, I've tried it. Nothing I have tried has had any effect whatsoever on the tilt.

My track is very low so I'm only using a very small portion of the ball. I tend to just skid right through the break point as the ball is still "laying over". When I do get ot the pocket it's usually a weak hit since the ball is barely getting into the roll phase before it hits the rack, so I don't get much carry. (Never get a messenger).

I don't have access to any kind of recording device to take a useful video.

Thanks in advance for your help.

I moved you post, in order that all the membership can comment.
JMerrell
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Positive Axis Point: 5 1/8" x 1/2" up
Speed: 16 mph @ foul line
Rev Rate: 230
Axis Tilt: 20
Axis Rotation: 50
Location: Florence, Ky

Re: Help with Tilt

Post by JMerrell »

1Some observations:
1. You have been working on this issue for years.
2. Mo got you lined up with Lance for a good fit and some lessons
3. What did Lance offer as to your release?
4. Did you and Mo ever get together?
5. 20 degrees of tilt is very manageable with proper layouts and surface prep.
6. You must know someone that has a phone with camera capability to take a video of your game.
7. You went out and got a video of your golf swing.
8. You saw that your minds version of your golf swing was nothing like reality.
9. This holds true for bowling as well. Just because you feel as though you tried all of those things don’t mean you actually performed them correctly.
10. Next time you go to the center to practice, offer someone $5 to take a video of your game and email it to you. I’m sure you’ll find it eye opening.
11. I typically see high tilt common in two types of releases…one where wrist cock is maintained through release and the other where the hand is on top of the ball…..see below.
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-JMerrell
"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"
junebugfan
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Member
Posts: 50
Joined: January 17th, 2011, 10:23 pm
THS Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: No Clue
Speed: 15.6-17.2 Camera
Rev Rate: 1
Axis Tilt: Bad
Axis Rotation: Yes
Heavy Oil Ball: 919c
Medium Oil Ball: Mutant Cell
Light Oil Ball: Plastic
Preferred Company: Track
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Help with Tilt

Post by junebugfan »

Thanks for your reply. Mr Merrell.

I have been working on this for years. That's why it's so frustrating for me. I realize that while I think I am trying all kinds of different things to correct, what I feel is most likely not what's actually happening. That's why I'm reaching out for help here. I'm extremely frustrated. I've taken lessons from four different people & I still have the same problem.

I did take lessons from Lance & while he is an awesome guy & a great teacher, he actually also has a very high tilt. He's just a much better bowler with a higher rev rate so he knows how to manage it. I did also meet Mo & take a lesson from him.

20 degrees is probably my absolute lowest tilt.

I did get video of my golf swing. That set of lessons was years ago & cost me $300 which I had saved up for that purpose.

I am watching cameras on ebay that are capable of capturing video of the quality that would be useful to you to analyze on this site. As soon as I obtain one I will post a video of my shot.

I was just hoping that someone might have had some experience with this issue & could offer some insight.

Thanks again for your help.
kboveington
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Joined: May 24th, 2013, 8:39 am
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5 7/16 right ⅜ down
Speed: 20-21 mph at foul line
Rev Rate: 550
Axis Tilt: 5
Axis Rotation: 55
Medium Oil Ball: storm IQ tour pearl
Light Oil Ball: rotogrip scream
Preferred Company: storm/roto grip
Location: Cleveland Ohio

Re: Help with Tilt

Post by kboveington »

I used to be a very high tilt bowler at about 30-40 degrees. Now that I have a proper fit and some good coaching my tilt was just measured at 10 degrees. Don't give up! You will get it eventually.

Some things that may help: look at both of the images jmerrell has posted. They are both on top of the ball and/or side of the ball. You must stay behind it longer than you are right now. Try and keep your thumb in the 12 o'clock position for as long as possible through your release. Sure you will need the slight counterclockwise turn *righty*. Focus on the thumb position and palm position. Try and exaggerate the palm up and open through the release and after the release the hand should remain more open then closed. A good player to watch that finishes this way is Chris loschetter. Also Andres Gomez. I'm not sure what your normal axis rotation is? But lower axis rotation is easier to achieve lower tilt then getting around the ball a lot.

Another thing I feel has helped me: I bought a small ball about half the size of a bowling ball. I practice my release into the wall and catch it. I do this several times. You can see and feel the tilt and axis rotation you are putting on the ball.

Good luck. It sounds like you are dedicated and doing all of the right things. Its worth the wait, my rev rate has increased and the ball carries a million times better. I've even thrown some messengers at 13-14 mph! Haha
Make spares make cut, miss spares miss cut. " Bill O'Neil "
junebugfan
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Posts: 50
Joined: January 17th, 2011, 10:23 pm
THS Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: No Clue
Speed: 15.6-17.2 Camera
Rev Rate: 1
Axis Tilt: Bad
Axis Rotation: Yes
Heavy Oil Ball: 919c
Medium Oil Ball: Mutant Cell
Light Oil Ball: Plastic
Preferred Company: Track
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Help with Tilt

Post by junebugfan »

Thank you for your help sir. It's definitely encouraging to me to hear from someone that had the same issue & was able to improve.
I will get the small ball & work on that. I will use the mental images of the thumb in the release as well, & check out the video of chris loschetter.
JMerrell
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Positive Axis Point: 5 1/8" x 1/2" up
Speed: 16 mph @ foul line
Rev Rate: 230
Axis Tilt: 20
Axis Rotation: 50
Location: Florence, Ky

Re: Help with Tilt

Post by JMerrell »

To change /reduce your tilt the release obviously has to change. You have mentioned that you have some wrist issues but keeping your wrist straight would be the number one priority and would improve you rev rate as well. I’m sure KB didn’t go from 30 to 10 degrees of tilt overnight, and would be curious if the 30 was one-handed and the 10 degrees two handed? Either way it’s easier to change your tilt with a two-handed release.

You need to be able to feel a different release in order to change it. As Kb has stated practice it at home first before taking it to the lanes. There is no need to do a full approach and delivery at home to change the release, it will be different once you step on the approach anyway.

Kneel down drill at home:
Kneel with sliding foot directly in front of kneeling leg. Position your sliding leg straight. Raise hips and lean slightly forward with non-bowling arm resting on left thigh and lean forward towards the sliding leg. With the ball on the floor and your hand in with a straight wrist position, raise shoulder so that the ball is off the floor. Take a very short swing back and release the ball without any forearm rotation. During the backswing and release keep your eyes on the hand position not where the ball is going.

You can also take this drill to the lanes where you will be able to see the oil rings, your track and tilt should change if done properly. Remember this exercise only requires a short back swing and keeping your eyes on the hand position during the release. As KB stated I recommend that you start out by keeping the hand behind the ball at first. Done correctly, the ball will roll over the holes. If it doesn’t hit the holes you are adding rotation during the release. If you can reduce the tilt, adding rotation is the easy part.

Stationary Drill
Another drill is to assume your finish position…..trail leg left…...head over the ball….ball hanging down with a straight wrist behind the ball. Take a short swing back and release the ball keeping the hand behind the ball. Use your eyes to make sure the wrist stays straight and the hand stays behind the ball
during your release. This drill can be done at home and at the lanes. Remember a short swing and follow through, you are working on a release change…not speed and rev rate.

Release drills by Norm

[youtube][/youtube]
-JMerrell
"Simplify the Motion.....Maximize the Results"
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kajmk
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Re: Help with Tilt

Post by kajmk »

Hey-Penny more .
I'll try to contribute if Mr Kindle ko-operates.

Here is a tidbit, I'd appreciate feedback on your feelings as to its relevancy (all)

I rendered this before, once in the topic "Teaching Tilt" post #4
This is a drill I saw Dick Either teach.
The drill requires a flat smooth surface, e.g. a floor, a table top, a small "cylinder" to quote Mr Ritger, he used a roll of electrical tape.

Hold the tape with the pads of the fingers and thumb, cock your wrist, then rotate the tape moving the fingers (upwards and outwards so to speak) and thumb (inwards towards the base of the pinky)in opposite directions in an effort to roll it on the surface and get the tape to roll BACK to you, NOT BOUNCE or roll away.

This might help reinforce some of the motion and you can keep the prop in your pocket.

Don Johnson sometimes advocated "over-exaggeration" when trying to form a new habit.

Also, note the tape on the balls in the pictures Jim rendered. Practicing with a visible marker on you PAP Positive Axis Point, is a very good habit.

Tilt and axis rotation are born as the ball is released, thus you need a video of that aspect to measure those attributes.

Just for fun, hold a small plastic bottle in your hand so that the bottle cap is on the pinky side.
Now pretend it is a bowling balls Horizontal axis. Now position your wrist in various poses and observe the cap (your pseudo PAP).

Also note that a PAP can be raised if you release the ball down into the lane and raised if you release it on the up - source Don Johnson video two I believe.

Again wrist position is the primary governed of TILT.

Also, consider the clock face analogy but with the clock standing on its end not laying on the floor to visualize where the fingers were at release.

FEEDBACK? Is this good information? I hope so, please critique politely.

Now if kindle and the software allows, I submit.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
junebugfan
Member
Member
Posts: 50
Joined: January 17th, 2011, 10:23 pm
THS Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: No Clue
Speed: 15.6-17.2 Camera
Rev Rate: 1
Axis Tilt: Bad
Axis Rotation: Yes
Heavy Oil Ball: 919c
Medium Oil Ball: Mutant Cell
Light Oil Ball: Plastic
Preferred Company: Track
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Help with Tilt

Post by junebugfan »

Thanks so much to all of you for taking time to help! I am looking forward to practicing all of your suggestions. I know I need to get a video so that you (& I) can see what's actually taking place during my release.

Lance did show me the foul line drill but I couldn't execute it, as holding the ball in with my wrist cupped for more than a couple of seconds causes a sharp pain in the back of my wrist right in the center of the joint. I don't have the pain while bowling, only when I try to hold the ball with the wrist cupped in a static position, but perhaps that is preventing me from staying under the ball at the release. The video will certainly show it when I can make that happen.
kboveington
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Posts: 342
Joined: May 24th, 2013, 8:39 am
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5 7/16 right ⅜ down
Speed: 20-21 mph at foul line
Rev Rate: 550
Axis Tilt: 5
Axis Rotation: 55
Medium Oil Ball: storm IQ tour pearl
Light Oil Ball: rotogrip scream
Preferred Company: storm/roto grip
Location: Cleveland Ohio

Re: Help with Tilt

Post by kboveington »

First before I forget a cupped wrist is not for everyone! Also IMO its harder to clear the thumb consistently with the more cupped you have. So I wouldn't put to much stock into thinking you need a cupped wrist for low tilt or higher rev rate. As jmerrells image *bottom * showed you holding that cupped wrist too long can results in high tilt. I would recommend a firm hand position.

Jmerrells video with Norm Duke is really good! You could also do those drills rolling the ball back and forth to a friend. Or at home rolling the ball into some pillows.

Jmerrell, I was referring to my one handed shot going from 30-40 degrees to 10 degrees. I am still not 100% after my shoulder surgery so I am being cautious as to when I attempt to go back to 2 handed. My 2 handed tilt was 0. However with a pitch change I got up to about 3 degrees and I would still like a little more tilt if its possible. Eventually when healthy I would like you to analyze my 2 handed delivery. Maybe you might have some suggestions in the tilt department.

Kajmk, some really good insight in your post as well! That bottle trick is really cool! Thank you both for giving me more ideas and tools for myself, as well as help with coaching others!!
Make spares make cut, miss spares miss cut. " Bill O'Neil "
junebugfan
Member
Member
Posts: 50
Joined: January 17th, 2011, 10:23 pm
THS Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: No Clue
Speed: 15.6-17.2 Camera
Rev Rate: 1
Axis Tilt: Bad
Axis Rotation: Yes
Heavy Oil Ball: 919c
Medium Oil Ball: Mutant Cell
Light Oil Ball: Plastic
Preferred Company: Track
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Help with Tilt

Post by junebugfan »

I am having difficulty invisioning "palm up through the release" without a cupped wrist - do you mean palm up as opposed to facing to the left? (I'm right handed) I was thinking you meant palm up toward the ceiling as opposed to facing forward toward the pin deck.

Also I was thinking that I needed a cupped wrist coming into the release to prevent being on top of the ball as in jmerrell's illustration. I know that when I feel my wrist is cupped coming into release, I get considerably more revs than when my wrist feels relaxed. Perhaps what feels cupped to me is actually flat, & what feels relaxed is actually bowed back. I know this is the main reason I need a video.

One problem is that in order to put my wrist in what feels like a cupped position, I have to also cock my wrist, so I know that's adding tilt.(with my fingers & thumb in the position they are in when inserted in the ball - even while not holding a ball, my wrist just physically won't bend unless I cock it also - is that normal? If my fingers/thumb are relaxed & not "stretched out" I can bend my wrist without cocking it)

When I throw my plastic ball at a 10 pin "flat" i.e. not trying to put any revs or axis rotation on the ball, my track is very high, less than an inch from the finger holes & sometimes even "thumps" over the holes. Of course that shot won't work as a strike shot though. :lol:

One of the things I have been trying of late is to uncock my wrist as I release (or turn the thumb/fingers counter clockwise) but it hasn't had any affect on tilt - it only causes my axis rotation to go way up & my revs to drop.
kboveington
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Posts: 342
Joined: May 24th, 2013, 8:39 am
THS Average: 225
Positive Axis Point: 5 7/16 right ⅜ down
Speed: 20-21 mph at foul line
Rev Rate: 550
Axis Tilt: 5
Axis Rotation: 55
Medium Oil Ball: storm IQ tour pearl
Light Oil Ball: rotogrip scream
Preferred Company: storm/roto grip
Location: Cleveland Ohio

Re: Help with Tilt

Post by kboveington »

I am glad you mentioned the plastic ball track!!! Yes this is the roll you should be looking for. And I think sometimes we forget that. When you shoot your ten pin you are trying to roll the ball end over end. I guarantee your hand is in a better position during your ten pin release.

Now we need the hand to go from a firm position to open position *or broken, relaxed * whatever you want to call it. Thumb should be in 12 o'clock and finished at 10 or 11. Again hand should be more open then closed at finish position. The hand rolls more down *then around* at the point of release.

Hopefully this helps a little better in explaining.
Make spares make cut, miss spares miss cut. " Bill O'Neil "
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kajmk
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Re: Help with Tilt

Post by kajmk »

junebugfan - In his "Dock of the Bay" Otis Redding says:

"Looks like nothings gonna change
Everything still remains the same
I can't do what ten people tell me to do
So I guess I'll remain the same ..."

[youtube][/youtube]

You may start feeling like that especially if you start to see differences in the renderings.

Jim is phasing you in so to speak, via predecessor steps or building blocks, laying down a foundation on which to build upon. Sort of like learning arithmetic before algebra and so on.
Keep the faith, patiently apply the changes, practice them, master them, then move on.

This bit of advice from Gregg Helms is a keeper. You will see a parallel to what Jim layed down
Greg's Bowling Chat ID is FitDocSr

Put a piece of white tape on your PAP. When you can at least make it face the left gutter (straight ball) you are behind it at release. Dont try to hook it (or dont try to turn your hand). Once you have that under control, then you can start adding turn with the hand.
I teach that you cant hook it properly until you can roll it straight properly. Also helps on spares.

_________________
Gregg Helms
Striking Results Pro Shops -NC
http://www.strikingresultsproshop.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
USBC Silver Certified Coach
Brunswick Pro Staff
*The opinions expressed are solely those of the writer and not of Brunswick Bowling & Billiards
Remember the first time you heard a recording of your voice? Did it sound like you to you?
Most likely not. For most people it's the same when seeing themselves on video.
That video work is oh so important, you can't see you , and things happen very quickly, some faster than the human eye can effectively detect if at all. As said, seeing is believing, there is a classic passage in "The Inner Game of Tennis" to that effect.

Try watching and listening to Bill Hall on this release drill video. Bill has coached many elite bowlers
including Norm Duke. http://billhallbowling.com/index.php?id ... roller=cms" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Aside from the video, Bill offers some key points to follow when doing the drill.
You will see similarities to the Duke video but some different verbiage and some stop and go action and a lane level view of Bills hand moving through the release.

You may also want to peruse Ron Clifton's article archive at http://www.bowl4fun.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.
Look at this one about Ball weight http://www.bowl4fun.com/ron/tip14.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It contains a test Ron uses that you should consider trying. Ron's archive is a goldmine of bowling information.

Remember that a well fitted ball that you do not have to squeeze will feel lighter, don't overlook the fit. There is an analogy that the proper grip pressure is like the amount needed to hold a baby bird, just enough to feel the heart beat - source for that one is Gary Parsons guruU2 with similar description by Don Johnson.

Feel that heartbeat and yours scores will be sweet
A ball that fits like a glove is a big step towards scores you will love

Proper fit and weight are essential if you are to bowl your best.

Parting comment -
All of the fingers are essential, not only those you insert into the ball. See Clifton's finger dancing.
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
junebugfan
Member
Member
Posts: 50
Joined: January 17th, 2011, 10:23 pm
THS Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: No Clue
Speed: 15.6-17.2 Camera
Rev Rate: 1
Axis Tilt: Bad
Axis Rotation: Yes
Heavy Oil Ball: 919c
Medium Oil Ball: Mutant Cell
Light Oil Ball: Plastic
Preferred Company: Track
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Help with Tilt

Post by junebugfan »

Thanks guys! John - that video by Bill Hall is fantastic. I do have the Norm Duke video, but the Bill Hall video is the best I've seen for demonstrating the proper position & release mechanics. It enlightened me to couple of major flaws in my execution. I can't wait to get home tonight & work on it.
junebugfan
Member
Member
Posts: 50
Joined: January 17th, 2011, 10:23 pm
THS Average: 190
Positive Axis Point: No Clue
Speed: 15.6-17.2 Camera
Rev Rate: 1
Axis Tilt: Bad
Axis Rotation: Yes
Heavy Oil Ball: 919c
Medium Oil Ball: Mutant Cell
Light Oil Ball: Plastic
Preferred Company: Track
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: Help with Tilt

Post by junebugfan »

Progress update...I studied the videos & performed the Bill Hall release drill in my hallway Sunday evening. Busy weekend so didn't get to take it to the lanes before my league last night.

I didn't have a great set due to 6 open frames which came mostly late in each game, but focusing on the drill I was able to throw a much better shot than I ever have in the past. My track was much higher & I was actually able to get to the pocket without slowing down the ball. Got considerably better carry at 16.8-17mph (camera) than the old 14.8-15.6 range.

My footwork suffered as a result of concentrating solely on the release, so I know once this becomes more ingrained my scores will improve. I'm still not staying quite far enough inside the ball as I've got a little more axis rotation than I want, but I will get there. My best shots were where I could feel myself staying more inside through the release & the ball had less rotation & therefore started reading the lane earlier.

I'm going to practice Sunday evening so I will try to get some video to submit so I can find out if I'm on the right track.
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kajmk
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Re: Help with Tilt

Post by kajmk »

A few quick words.
Please be sure to email Bill and any other s who's web tips helped you.
Bill sits at the round table of the bowling Jedi Knights.
Be sure to maintain a video archive of yourself, this has a variety of uses.
Check the wiki for instructions on creating videos for a analysis, it's on our wiki.
Use your video for ON THE SPOT REAL TIME OBSERVATION
Try to verbally annotate or keep notes, e.g. intent such as the line etc, what you felt, your assessment.
Use your videos as an aide during development.
Use isolation drills but remember that whatever you learn must of course be integrated into the whole.
Bill Hall had some excellent drills and instructions in BTM and for that matter every place he wrote.
However, his video was for Bill sub-par, he is capable f much more.
It's unfair to compare his DVD with Norm' s, consider the cost of production and lack of sponsorship.
Gotta run, I'll co Thu up later...
May all beings everywhere be happy and free,
and may the thoughts, words, and actions of my own life
contribute in some way to that happiness
and to that freedom for all.

John
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